Democracy in decline

[ThaiBunny]

10 minutes ago, Fex Bluse said:

I think I failed to make my point. What I was really feeling is that many of our western countries should consider reciprocal treatment of Asians. Throughout Asia, they treat Westerners as 3rd and 4th class citizens while exploiting our countries' resources and benefits. 

 

I would love to see Thais given specific treatment directly proportional to their common illegal activity and how poorly they treat foreigners in Thailand. 

Proving their suspicions right all along, that we're no better than they are

[ramr]

3 hours ago, JAG said:

Thailand has had democracy, it is in decline, perhaps removed in totality, but it had it.

 

And please, don't push the buttons with the supreme arrogance of "Thailand is not ready for democracy"!

 

Just as arrogant to assume democracy (at least in there same forms that we might broadly recognize it as Westerners) is suited to Thailand at this point in time.  Not that I'm saying you are.  It's a tool, not an ideology to be blindly worshipped, and is to be used with other tools as appropriate to time, circumstances, and culture.  To each country their own, and the devil is very much in the details.

 

As for "ready or not," this and similar discussions usually fail to discuss how effective any democracy in any country can be at promoting things like freedom, opportunity/mobility, privacy, rule of law, sustainability, and living standards with an absolutely abysmal educational system.  Sure you'll have your democracy, but how effective or meaningful will it actually be besides having feel-good and PR value?

 

If they're directing the government, people need to have the skills to analyze and make rational choices for themselves, their families, their country.  Easy prey for a creeping, self-perpetuating bureaucracy, populist demagogues, and the rise of a new class of democracy-sanctioned plutocrats and oligarchs otherwise.  The Thaksins and Pheu Thai are an example of this, even though they are admittedly an improvement over the past five years.  Many more examples in other democracies across the world, especially in the US.

 

Just a warning about seeing democracy as panacea for the Thai people, that's all.

 

 

 

 

[metisdead]

Some off topic posts have been removed. 

[Sonhia]

I doubt this country will ever be able to sustain democracy. 

 

Thai are aggressive by nature. Force is the rule. Just look at the mannerisms, the way they communicate and act, drive... 

 

Mostly confrontational, aggressive conduct. 

[CMNightRider]

6 minutes ago, Sonhia said:

I doubt this country will ever be able to sustain democracy. 

 

Thai are aggressive by nature. Force is the rule. Just look at the mannerisms, the way they communicate and act, drive... 

 

Mostly confrontational, aggressive conduct. 

I only see this aggressive behavor when Thais are behind the wheel of a vehicle ????

[Dave67]

On 4/6/2019 at 4:57 AM, tabarin said:

Isn't democracy in decline anywhere in the world? Aside of the fact that absolute democracy is a failed system.

Do have any alternatives in mind ?

 

I have lived in Thailand for a long time and there is big difference between "Failed democracy" and a country dominated and suppressed by the military

[Dave67]

2 hours ago, ramr said:

 

Just as arrogant to assume democracy (at least in there same forms that we might broadly recognize it as Westerners) is suited to Thailand at this point in time.  Not that I'm saying you are.  It's a tool, not an ideology to be blindly worshipped, and is to be used with other tools as appropriate to time, circumstances, and culture.  To each country their own, and the devil is very much in the details.

 

As for "ready or not," this and similar discussions usually fail to discuss how effective any democracy in any country can be at promoting things like freedom, opportunity/mobility, privacy, rule of law, sustainability, and living standards with an absolutely abysmal educational system.  Sure you'll have your democracy, but how effective or meaningful will it actually be besides having feel-good and PR value?

 

If they're directing the government, people need to have the skills to analyze and make rational choices for themselves, their families, their country.  Easy prey for a creeping, self-perpetuating bureaucracy, populist demagogues, and the rise of a new class of democracy-sanctioned plutocrats and oligarchs otherwise.  The Thaksins and Pheu Thai are an example of this, even though they are admittedly an improvement over the past five years.  Many more examples in other democracies across the world, especially in the US.

 

Just a warning about seeing democracy as panacea for the Thai people, that's all.

 

 

 

 

Some form of democracy in Thailand is far better that what we have now and the foreseeable future

[DrTuner]

On 4/6/2019 at 2:45 PM, yellowboat said:

Met a Thai man in Shanghai.  Asked him why he left Thailand.  He had a laundry list of things, but the two things that were at the top of the list: lack of freedom and lack of opportunity.  

He should put that on facebook while in there.

[DrTuner]

On 4/6/2019 at 10:57 AM, tabarin said:

Isn't democracy in decline anywhere in the world? Aside of the fact that absolute democracy is a failed system.

I think the only time there was absolute democracy anywhere was in ancient Greece? It would be worth a try, the folks in New Hampshire could give it a shot Use blockchain and open forum for issues to vote on 24/7/365 and implement only the ones with 75% of the votes. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_State_Project

[ThaiBunny]

3 minutes ago, DrTuner said:

I think the only time there was absolute democracy anywhere was in ancient Greece?

Yep - no women, no slaves had the vote. Works for me ????

[Odysseus123]

12 minutes ago, ThaiBunny said:

Yep - no women, no slaves had the vote. Works for me ????

Only Athens used this system and that was for less then a hundred years.

 

Only male citizens with property qualifications were allowed to vote.So no pesky metics or "foreigners" either.

 

So definitely not "absolute democracy"-as there is no such beast to be found in history.

[Fex Bluse]

6 hours ago, ThaiBunny said:

Proving their suspicions right all along, that we're no better than they are

Except, western countries have NOT done so.

 

So, where does that leave your false equivalent? 

 

I'm sure you'd have fantacised about a forbidden sexual rendezvous. And, I'm sure you'd agree that thinking about it and acting on it are two different things. 

 

Edited April 7, 2019 by Fex Bluse

[Fex Bluse]

5 hours ago, ramr said:

 

Just as arrogant to assume democracy (at least in there same forms that we might broadly recognize it as Westerners) is suited to Thailand at this point in time.  Not that I'm saying you are.  It's a tool, not an ideology to be blindly worshipped, and is to be used with other tools as appropriate to time, circumstances, and culture.  To each country their own, and the devil is very much in the details.

 

As for "ready or not," this and similar discussions usually fail to discuss how effective any democracy in any country can be at promoting things like freedom, opportunity/mobility, privacy, rule of law, sustainability, and living standards with an absolutely abysmal educational system.  Sure you'll have your democracy, but how effective or meaningful will it actually be besides having feel-good and PR value?

 

If they're directing the government, people need to have the skills to analyze and make rational choices for themselves, their families, their country.  Easy prey for a creeping, self-perpetuating bureaucracy, populist demagogues, and the rise of a new class of democracy-sanctioned plutocrats and oligarchs otherwise.  The Thaksins and Pheu Thai are an example of this, even though they are admittedly an improvement over the past five years.  Many more examples in other democracies across the world, especially in the US.

 

Just a warning about seeing democracy as panacea for the Thai people, that's all.

 

 

 

 

I agree with some of this. In my view, it seems silly to assume that Democracy is suited for Thais. 

 

In the most basic sense, it is clear to me that Thais do not understand democracy and also that Thai culture is probably not well-suited to Democracy. And, it is likely that almost no Thais actually care about democracy. They care about the fashion of democracy. Thais care about things that matter in Thai society - questions like 

 

"am I attractive enough" and

 

"is my somtam too spicy" 

 

Many people would call them primitive, but I prefer to say they care about basic, uncomplicated things. They are close to nature. 

 

What I criticize Thais for is their constant pretending that they need to be or can be a functioning democracy - which is am certain they cannot be. I would have MUCH more respect for them if they, like China, acknowledged their culture is incompatible with certain western ideals and banged on their own path. 

 

But, Thais never seem to be able to display honesty about themselves, so, on and on my criticisms come. 

 

Edited April 7, 2019 by Fex Bluse

[Eric Loh]

It’s a fallacy to think that there is only western democracy. Eastern democracy has better chance of success for Thailand as it has been with Japan, South Korea and the biggest democracy in the world India. 

[jayboy]

8 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

It’s a fallacy to think that there is only western democracy. Eastern democracy has better chance of success for Thailand as it has been with Japan, South Korea and the biggest democracy in the world India. 

Of course democracy needs to reflect local traditions and culture but the basic themes transcend geography. There are fundamental principles that affect us all.

 

[marcusarelus]

26 minutes ago, jayboy said:

Of course democracy needs to reflect local traditions and culture but the basic themes transcend geography. There are fundamental principles that affect us all.

Should the majority of democratically elected people from one culture be able to make laws that offend us enlightened people from Western cultures? 

[4675636b596f75]

I for one, am glad Democracy is in decline.

[Eric Loh]

32 minutes ago, jayboy said:

Of course democracy needs to reflect local traditions and culture but the basic themes transcend geography. There are fundamental principles that affect us all.

 

The tradition of hereditary head of state can be accommodated in Eastern democracy. Alas it have been exploited by the power cliques to stage coups and write unfair laws to dominate. Democracy and military are oxymoron. 

 

[4675636b596f75]

On 4/6/2019 at 9:53 AM, Fex Bluse said:

Maybe they are quite smart indeed. ????

[DrTuner]

8 minutes ago, 4675636b596f75 said:

I for one, am glad Democracy is in decline.

Excellent, the Russian gulags have seen a population decline in the last decades, maybe you should volunteer to be the first in line.

[4675636b596f75]

1 minute ago, DrTuner said:

Excellent, the Russian gulags have seen a population decline in the last decades, maybe you should volunteer to be the first in line.

Perhaps you should look up the definition of democracy. 

[DrTuner]

4 minutes ago, 4675636b596f75 said:

Perhaps you should look up the definition of democracy. 

Churcill put it the best:

 

’Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.…’

 

Best of a bad bunch.

[marcusarelus]

4 minutes ago, 4675636b596f75 said:

Perhaps you should look up the definition of democracy. 

You vote for people except when they elect someone who you don't like.  See Trump and CNN as an example.  Or you can't stone people even if the majority of the electorate want's you too. 

[DrTuner]

1 hour ago, Fex Bluse said:

I agree with some of this. In my view, it seems silly to assume that Democracy is suited for Thais. 

 

In the most basic sense, it is clear to me that Thais do not understand democracy and also that Thai culture is probably not well-suited to Democracy. And, it is likely that almost no Thais actually care about democracy. They care about the fashion of democracy. Thais care about things that matter in Thai society - questions like 

 

"am I attractive enough" and

 

"is my somtam too spicy" 

 

Many people would call them primitive, but I prefer to say they care about basic, uncomplicated things. They are close to nature. 

 

That's a nice way of saying they don't have the IQ required to run a democracy. Decision making needs some brains.

[4675636b596f75]

1 hour ago, DrTuner said:

Churcill put it the best:

 

’Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.…’

 

Best of a bad bunch.

Is America a "democracy?"

 

[DrTuner]

50 minutes ago, 4675636b596f75 said:

Is America a "democracy?"

Is Churchill the POTUS? 

 

The correlation with Thailand is strong here, I can feel it in my ass hairs.

[LongTang]

2 hours ago, 4675636b596f75 said:

I for one, am glad Democracy is in decline.

It seems many miss a crucial point in regard to the value of democracy. One of the great benefits of democracy is the rotation of power.

The formula goes like that, The more you stay in power, the more likely it is you intentionally or unintentionally hurt some people that will eventually become your enemies.

The more enemies you have, the more power you will need to restrain them. The more power you use, the more authoritarian your regime will be, and the more dangerous it will be for you to give it up as it will most probably lead to you and your circles imminent demise (Ceaușescu in romania and Kadafi in lybia are classic recent examples).

 

Now when you place forced rotation of power into the equastion (as the USA very wisely did with the limitation of Presidency to two terms), you fundamentally remove the dangers of such a scenario by making any group in power think twice on any move that will eventually hurt a substantial part of its population, as everyone knows from the beginning that they Can't hold to power indefinitely.

In other words, the elites that pull the strings behind the scenes will less likely find themselves in a situation in witch they have to enforce an authoritarian regimen to keep themselves safe.

 

The problem is that it takes a long history of cultural experiences to reach that point, And in that sense i think that one indeed has to let each country find its way into democracy in its own pace, even if it means waiting a few generations.

[4675636b596f75]

1 hour ago, DrTuner said:

Is Churchill the POTUS? 

 

The correlation with Thailand is strong here, I can feel it in my ass hairs.

I see you don't know the answer.  Democracy is for scumbags.  I come from America where we created the Constitutional Representative Republic.  America was never a Democracy.  Prove me wrong.  I dare you.

[4675636b596f75]

10 minutes ago, LongTang said:

It seems many miss a crucial point in regard to the value of democracy. One of the great benefits of democracy is the rotation of power.

The formula goes like that, The more you stay in power, the more likely it is you intentionally or unintentionally hurt some people that will eventually become your enemies.

The more enemies you have, the more power you will need to restrain them. The more power you use, the more authoritarian your regime will be, and the more dangerous it will be for you to give it up as it will most probably lead to you and your circles imminent demise (Ceaușescu in romania and Kadafi in lybia are classic recent examples).

 

Now when you place forced rotation of power into the equastion (as the USA very wisely did with the limitation of Presidency to two terms), you fundamentally remove the dangers of such a scenario by making any group in power think twice on any move that will eventually hurt a substantial part of its population, as everyone knows from the beginning that they Can't hold to power indefinitely.

In other words, the elites that pull the strings behind the scenes will less likely find themselves in a situation in witch they have to enforce an authoritarian regimen to keep themselves safe.

 

The problem is that it takes a long history of cultural experiences to reach that point, And in that sense i think that one indeed has to let each country find its way into democracy in its own pace, even if it means waiting a few generations.

You're not getting it either.  America was never a democracy.  

[LongTang]

9 minutes ago, 4675636b596f75 said:

Democracy is for scumbags.

You are quite right, We humans are a bunch of Selfish Scumbags that want to rule the world, AND THE ONLY THING THAT CAN SOMEHOW KEEP US IN CHECK is as history showed us again and again is Democracy.