Farang Dad's

[jayinoz]

Hi again,

No, No, No The advantage is always with the one in possession of the child. You can gain nothing by waiting. You should take this to court to get legitimized and get shared custody within the next 2 months. Your son will be 1 in Sep, Do not wait longer than August before formally starting the process. Regardless of if you plan to go back to Australia after or whatever. Do not wait, bad mistake. You can decide not to use the possession you are given and it is the mothers responsibility to sue if she formally wants to change it (which she won't). Or considering the mothers personality, if you wait for 2 years utilising it, then you probably have to go to court to get the mother to give you part possession. But you will be in a much more difficult position if you have to ask for custody and possession then instead of request to get what court already has decided you are entitled to. Fight for 5/2 regardless, minimum majority of the time, and as a good father say that if the mother is not dangerous for the child, then you will of course let the mother take care of him the times when you cannot, let her know afterwards that you will only use 2 for now

Drop of nappies: Little bit extreme. 100 bath per day is calculated from a formula. That was for 3 year olds. I should be a little bit more for less than 1 year old because of nappies, powder milk etc. I suggest paying 4,000 bath per month. Did I write that you could replace the money with things like that? Yes, you could probably pay 3,000 and a thousand bath in nappies etc that the mother use for the child when you are not there – must have receipts – and you can motivate that with that you as a father really want to be a part of your childs life. I don't think it is all good though. Who says that you should be allowed to decide what the mother use the legal minimum allowance on? You are not YET a legal father, don't push it. If she is short on money, then her rightful and culturally correct choice could be to use washable diapers instead and spend the money of necessities like food. I mean 4,000 transferred to her account every month (so that you have good evidence) and throw in a bit extra more luxury stuff (like nappies, clothes for the child) if you want. To show how much you want to be a part of your sons life.

Don't trust your Thai lawyer to 100%. Don't let him know that you are satisfied with 2 days! Big exclamation mark. Applies to all lawyers but even more as he is Thai and you are farang. You have quite a lot of good stuff on your side, Your communication to your lawyer should be sole try for custody but minimum 5/2 I think. You will have to prove that you are ready to take care of the child. Must have thought of nanny if you work, have company name and phone number, whatever, just so that your lawyer can say - Yes, already investigated etc.

"Over time I maybe able to pay off an amount to get 50% access- maybe. We will see...."

Don't work that way. Work - Get it now and use less if you want

"Pschologists say we cannot remember a thing before 3yo."

Can't remember is correct I think. Habits are a totally different matter though, if you're a humble suppressed 3 year old then you're not going to be a strong leader ever. I bet George Bush was stupid but showed leadership talents already when he was 3 years old I believe very much in the power of the unconscious mind

The lawyer I used is in Bangkok, charge USD 4,000 - not cheap. If you now are looking at legitimization, shared custody and willing to accept LESS than 50% possession, then I don't think you will need him. A less expensive lawyer, with family law experience!, should easily be enough with that you have.

"My thoughts are to use a less expensive lawyer- maybe 40K bt to gain access to my son at least half of the time. Then at 3yo a very good one to gain full custody...."

You now that's a bad idea now. Full custody = shared custody you will get now easily. You will never get sole custody in 2 years time if you don't get it now (and you probably won't get it now either).

"If court order states I have 4 days and she has 3 days- can i hand this to police and they will pick the child up if on a court document???"

NO, the police will refuse to act against the mother or a member of the extended family. Even if you have a court paper stating possession at certain times, then parental kidnapping is not a criminal offence in Thailand – the concept doesn't exist even. The police will most likely choose to read that as extended family kidnapping does not exist in Thailand. Since it's not a criminal offence, then it's a civil offence and they are out of jurisdiction. You will have to go to court and the court will order. The line is a bit fuzzy here. The police will not act against the mother but they may accept to come with you to the grand mother, I can see the police discussing and telling the grand mother the law, still, I doubt the police would forcefully remove the child from the grand mother. Could happen but I doubt it. After all, there are many more cases in Thailand where the grand mother take the child from the parents because the child is not cared for properly, than it is for mischievous intent. With a court paper in hand, ordering the mother (or grand mother) to provide the legal father with possession of the child – sure they will act. They have to.

Helmet… I think you know that I am a person who loves family more than anything in life. I love my daughter over everything and I'd donor my heart to her tomorrow if she needed it. Still I drive my daughter the 300 meters to school without helmet, in Bangkok even. And I allowed her to sit in the car without using the car seat and seat belt before. I worked on getting her to accept the seat belt of course but not to the level where it affected the happiness of travelling. My daughter is now 5 years old and she does put on her seat belt herself. She will start first grade next year and I will buy her a helmet and she will put it on herself. What I did was very very hard work. I accepted my daughter to be unprotected and took the shit on me. I tried to drive as safely and alertly as ever possible, always keeping concentration up. We have been to 50 provinces by car in Thailand like that Driving motorcycle without a helmet is the most common reason for pre-mature death in Thailand I think… I would do exactly the same as you do, I trust myself, that doesn't mean that I trust others. But I wouldn't expect the helmet to be always be used. If it is used on the little bit longer trips to the market, then I would be happy. Good initiative, I hope that the mother uses it as much as possible

"My X states it is my fault as i will not leave her a car"

You have spoilt her

Michael

:jap:Thanks again Mikey...

Makes far more sense than other posters who simply say U have no chance- which is irritatiing.

I will take your advice to start proceedings against the mother. As she will not let me see my son and I confirmed she is seeking another partner. From one of her friends whilst my son is left in the Village with the Grandma who works full time. So he is being passed between non family members who offer support like in most villages. Whilst she attempts to find a man who will support her to at least the same standard as I used too. I could care less now, as love and hate are very close emotions. You can end up hating a person you thought you once loved far easier than you can hate a stranger. So she supposedly after a new Dad for my son to support all of them. Maybe she can- but it will take quite a man to do this... Ultimately she wishes to have me battle another Farang, as she told me she may do before our final breakup. She is very pretty but not on the inside... so she will get many short timers in my mind.

Regardless my son is better off with me than strangers I feel. So I will commencing proceedings when I return to CMai next month. She does not believe I will and is betting on the fact I will not. Yet it sounds I must get official access NOW, rather than waiting a year or 2. It will be worth the couple of thousand to do this I feel. Then worth the 3-4K US for full custody rights when she makes very bad judgment errors in the future.

I fear in regards to picking up my son and will need to organize a group of mates to come along with Police to pick up my son. This is a hard ask to ask mates to accompany me with Police but a must do. Hopefully after picking him up the first couple of times they will allow me to pick him up myself from then on... Naturally the first time will be the hardest.

I will keep all updated on my Child Custody matter on this thread.

Thanks again Mikey.

[jayinoz]

The waiting time for the fact finding session in Bangkok is currently around 2 months so if you haven’t already started the process, then you are not going to get custody formalised in 2 months, not in Bangkok anyway, I don’t know the waiting times in other parts of the country. If the mother doesn't contest, then it will be a shorter period before the judge signs the papers granting you legitimization and shared custody and then another month before it takes legal effect. If the mother contests, then it will be at least another month, probably two before decision is handed down to add to that. To get legitimized and recognised as legal father is a formality, to get shared custody is easy. Any father trying to be a good father will get shared custody. How much of the possession of the child he will get is a different matter though. I don’t like when you write: as I have assets, she does not. One clarification: You get shared custody because you are good for the child, not because of your assets. If you are good for the child, then you will get custody also without assets. If you are bad for the child, then you ill not get possession of the child regardless of assets

Foreign papers: My first sample explains it best I think: A western marriage certificate has no value in Thailand until it has been formalised. The formalisation of a marriage certificate is done by registering the marriage at the amphur. Your different Aussie papers are no different. They mean nothing in Thailand until they have been formalised. That generally means registered or stamped at your embassy and then properly translated to Thai and certified at the ministry of foreign affairs department of consular affairs. Some papers can be used at this stage, others need to have been submitted and accepted as evidence in a court case before they can be used to anything, yes.

I don’t understand why you talk so much about custody. You will get custody, of course. You will get shared custody easily. It will be difficult for you to get sole custody because you would have to prove that the mother is dangerous and bad for the child bad for the courts to remove her custody. Her sickness doesn’t make her dangerous and bad for the child. That she has a police record in Australia could make her dangerous and bad for her child but that is depending on what she has done. Theft is certainly not going to remove custody, neither is perjury. Unstable and violent behaviour are bad qualifications for a parent though. What your lawyer is trying to do is probably to get as much possession of the child as possible. Maybe he is trying for sole custody but without formal evidence of unstable and violent behaviour then that is going to be difficult. It is not custody that is the important thing, it is possession of the child. If you can prove a criminal past, and that you are a serious father trying your best for your child, then you will get most of the possession, no doubt about it.

I wish you good luck. If the mother is all bad for the child then I wish you all the luck in the world. If you are better for the child but the mother is not all bad, then I wish you most of the possession of the child and that the mother is allowed to and have the possibility to visit her child sometimes.

Don’t tell me anything that is not for the best of the child. I dislike that. That is something very good to remember for court too. Never say anything that is not for the best of the child. Judges dislike that Have I explained well enough?

Good Luck

Mikyidea IN BOLD is not true. I was never married to my thai wife in Thailand. WE were married in America. WE had a child out of wedlock and then later got marrried. I never got any sort of formalized paper in thailand saying we were married. My daughter holds a US and thai passport. I got divorced in THAILAND and got full custody of my daughter. Went thru the childrens court here in Phuket. A thai court does not side with the thai but looks at the best interest of the child. The mother never bothered showing up for court.

So much of what u read here is not true. I have taken my daughter in and out of Thailand dozens of times and never once been stopped or asked any questions, never been asked for a birth certificate. She enters and leaves Thailand on her thai passport and then travels on her US passport. Never any trouble and this has been the way since she was 2 years old.

"This is regardless of if father has shared custody or not because of the simple reason that the immigration officer doesn’t know that. If the father has the childs birth certificate, then they are most likely allowed through"

why would having the birth certificate make a dam bit of difernece??

So you simply turn up at the airport and go in\out with your child with passport only? Never even needed to show you have sole custody for this purpose?

When have you needed to show the sole custody authorization?

Sounds like your wife did not give a dam, the same as my first wife..... It is much easier when they do not give a dam.

It is when they fight and do have maternal instincts that you will need to settle for a compromise. IMO.

I also have never had an issue bringing my first child in\out of any country. Although to renew her passport in Aussie I needed to get a magistrates court to sign off on sole custody for me. As i did not bother with this in Thailand. I simply got my daughter out, then she lived in Aussie near 4 years before i needed to get authorisation from the courts for the passport. For everything else from schools to medical nothing was needed. Inside thailand nothing has ever been needed to show as proof. As the mother does not really give a dam.

Yet a mother who does will NEVER let there child go without a fight. They would simply call the police and airport before you left the country the first time. If you already left they would hunt you down...... So I do not think we can compare the women whom really have maternal instincts and love for their children to those who do not.

[jayinoz]

CARROT: Give nothing more until son is legitimized in Thai court.

Thai judges in Juvenile court don't like fathers who don't pay anything for their children. Pay minimum legal minimum or it will reduce the possession you get. Why do you think you have right to part possession of the child if you don't pay anything for him?

Good call Mikey- I will send my son through 4000bt pm, as suggested. Then I can say I send 33% more than the legal minimum and she lives way out in the countryside. Show that when together she had 20000bt pm to spend on the whole family + most my food\drink.

When I said 20,000bt pm, that was when we were together. Basically supporting everyones food, drink, extras, including some of my own. Yet I had a seperate account for extras I bought. So the 20K bt was not for my X by herself... but yes it a good amount pm for a rural family. I thought only fair we pay for her families (parents, grandma, teen brother) food, drink, electric, expenses whilst we living under their roof. Ohh yer the biggest expense would have been the car I bought- petrol a killer when you drive a lot. So I was not a major cash cow- minor cash cow...

I doubt many farangs can live on that by themselves- it only $700pm. Not with living in a nice Condo, car, etc. No way with a car, no chance.

[sarahsbloke]

CARROT: Give nothing more until son is legitimized in Thai court.

Thai judges in Juvenile court don't like fathers who don't pay anything for their children. Pay minimum legal minimum or it will reduce the possession you get. Why do you think you have right to part possession of the child if you don't pay anything for him?

Good call Mikey- I will send my son through 4000bt pm, as suggested. Then I can say I send 33% more than the legal minimum and she lives way out in the countryside. Show that when together she had 20000bt pm to spend on the whole family + most my food\drink.

When I said 20,000bt pm, that was when we were together. Basically supporting everyones food, drink, extras, including some of my own. Yet I had a seperate account for extras I bought. So the 20K bt was not for my X by herself... but yes it a good amount pm for a rural family. I thought only fair we pay for her families (parents, grandma, teen brother) food, drink, electric, expenses whilst we living under their roof. Ohh yer the biggest expense would have been the car I bought- petrol a killer when you drive a lot. So I was not a major cash cow- minor cash cow...

I doubt many farangs can live on that by themselves- it only $700pm. Not with living in a nice Condo, car, etc. No way with a car, no chance.

How do you intend to pay her the money?

If you are going to, it needs to leave you with a record of payments.

[jayinoz]

CARROT: Give nothing more until son is legitimized in Thai court.

Thai judges in Juvenile court don't like fathers who don't pay anything for their children. Pay minimum legal minimum or it will reduce the possession you get. Why do you think you have right to part possession of the child if you don't pay anything for him?

Good call Mikey- I will send my son through 4000bt pm, as suggested. Then I can say I send 33% more than the legal minimum and she lives way out in the countryside. Show that when together she had 20000bt pm to spend on the whole family + most my food\drink.

When I said 20,000bt pm, that was when we were together. Basically supporting everyones food, drink, extras, including some of my own. Yet I had a seperate account for extras I bought. So the 20K bt was not for my X by herself... but yes it a good amount pm for a rural family. I thought only fair we pay for her families (parents, grandma, teen brother) food, drink, electric, expenses whilst we living under their roof. Ohh yer the biggest expense would have been the car I bought- petrol a killer when you drive a lot. So I was not a major cash cow- minor cash cow...

I doubt many farangs can live on that by themselves- it only $700pm. Not with living in a nice Condo, car, etc. No way with a car, no chance.

How do you intend to pay her the money?

If you are going to, it needs to leave you with a record of payments.

I had opened a BKK Bank account for her and my son. Wherever I am in the world at that particular time I will simply flick over 4000bt on a certain date monthly. I will make it from our official breakup date, when she went into a rage and throw me out of her family home. So I due to pay her a 1st instalemnet in 1 week.

She finally talked to me and stressed she borrowed a lot of money from extended family to cover bills for my son. As she used to buying the most expensive of everything for him. I told her to have washable nappies (She balked at this), explained she will not have the deposable income she once had unless she goes to find another, she must budget according to 4000bt pm for my son. Yet if she agrees to a 4\3 split she will get the 6000bt pm and will not need to pay for 4 days for our son pw.

I stated I needed all copies of his passport and birth cert to ligitize me as the father in Thai. Plus make him a dual citizen.

i will need to hire a nanny for 2 to 3 days from 4 as I work. Not retired as 33yo.

Now secured a nice Condo in CMai, nice car and working around town. It takes approx. 2 hours to pick up my son but that no hassle. Well for half the week anyway. My near 8yo daughter primarily lives with my parents and they rarely ask for money as they wealthier than me.

Hopefully my X and I can communicate in the future, purely about the son I had with her.

As Mikey advises it is important that you show you have done everything you can to be a good father and remain calm. Regardless of the games the girls play against you. Know that the legal minimum is 3000bt pm and if not taking a record the court will think you paid nothing. So save all you transactions or western union transfers for the future if you X tries to not include you in your childs life. :jap:

[MikeyIdea]

Jay, some people here at ThaiVisa have had problems getting in and out, others not. PhuketRichard goes in and out totally without problem because there are several stamps in the childs passport showing that he normally does so. In my case when I was stopped, the passport was blank as my child is born in Thailand. I am sure that makes a big difference. I have no idea what immigration would do in your case, the child has Australian passport with entry stamp but an expired visa. All I can say is that I wouldn't dare to just try to go out myself without more documentation. I can't say that immigration would be wrong if they stopped you and said that there was someting fishy going on

[MikeyIdea]

Makes far more sense than other posters who simply say U have no chance- which is irritatiing.

You have a very fair chance here, the child will get what is best for him, no bias against fathers or westerners. Visitation rights for the mother is something that the court will take into consideration when taking a decision. Your case: You should probably not openly say that - Yes I will take my son to Australia and never come back toThailand again... Ask your lawyer. The court clearly has the option to delay it all by sending out one or more orders for the mother to show up in court if they want. I have heard of that once but don't know of the details of that case. I guess: Court weren't happy with the options and decided to give the mother another chance. Perhaps. I don't know. I originally thought that they did that more often but it seems that it is a rare occurance rather.

"I will take your advice to start proceedings against the mother. As she will not let me see my son and I confirmed she is seeking another partner. From one of her friends whilst my son is left in the Village with the Grandma who works full time. So he is being passed between non family members who offer support like in most villages. Whilst she attempts to find a man who will support her to at least the same standard as I used too. I could care less now, as love and hate are very close emotions. You can end up hating a person you thought you once loved far easier than you can hate a stranger. So she supposedly after a new Dad for my son to support all of them. Maybe she can- but it will take quite a man to do this... Ultimately she wishes to have me battle another Farang, as she told me she may do before our final breakup. She is very pretty but not on the inside... so she will get many short timers in my mind."

As she won't allow you to see your son. She seeking / getting another partner not an issue for the child really (could be for a girl though). That not the mother but grand mother or another relative is taking care of the child is clearly an issue. Makes it much easier, don't forget to state that the mother is not taking care of the child herself when you file the case. Control your feelings toward the mother - No words or feelings that are not in the best interest of the child

"Regardless my son is better off with me than strangers I feel. So I will commencing proceedings when I return to CMai next month. She does not believe I will and is betting on the fact I will not. Yet it sounds I must get official access NOW, rather than waiting a year or 2. It will be worth the couple of thousand to do this I feel. Then worth the 3-4K US for full custody rights when she makes very bad judgment errors in the future."

Not must but... It is MUCH easier for you to get a good deal now than it will be in 2 years time for sure. Not even the grand mother taking care of the child instead of the mother will be an issue in 2 years time. Why? She's done it for 2 years now without problems, can't have been that bad? You will probably see totally the opposite but prove it. You can't. The advantage is always with the one in possession of the child. You have a good chance now with the evidence you have, you should be able to get the majority of the time quite easily actually. If the mother shows up: You hardly have enough for sole custody. If you don't get it now, then you're not going to get it later. Maybe you're right and she will make very bad judgement errors but evidence is not easy and severe enough for judges to consider that she should not b allowed to take decisions involving her own son? Not easy. Don't expect it

"I fear in regards to picking up my son and will need to organize a group of mates to come along with Police to pick up my son. This is a hard ask to ask mates to accompany me with Police but a must do. Hopefully after picking him up the first couple of times they will allow me to pick him up myself from then on... Naturally the first time will be the hardest."

The only thing you need is to videofilm it. It is actually more important that you protect the guy filming than yourself If the mother wants to reduce her chances of getting time with her child by showing violent and uncontrollable behaviour in front of a video camera, good. Ask the lawyer how many times you should gather evidence that the mother refuse you access to your child, get that and then sue. My laywer said 3 to 5 times. That may be little, a few more time but then - sue.

"I will keep all updated on my Child Custody matter on this thread."

Please do, the more information, the better advice

Good Luck

[jayinoz]

Jay, some people here at ThaiVisa have had problems getting in and out, others not. PhuketRichard goes in and out totally without problem because there are several stamps in the childs passport showing that he normally does so. In my case when I was stopped, the passport was blank as my child is born in Thailand. I am sure that makes a big difference. I have no idea what immigration would do in your case, the child has Australian passport with entry stamp but an expired visa. All I can say is that I wouldn't dare to just try to go out myself without more documentation. I can't say that immigration would be wrong if they stopped you and said that there was someting fishy going on

Yer Mikey, I will discount the idea of taking him outside the country for now. I will simply have an agreement with my X that when i away OS she looks after my son, for now. yet have the 5\2 or 4\3 listed on our contract. As asked before a contract agreement should be admissable in court at a later date. There is a fair bit to arrange and one more fight will undo all this...

I forsee hassles when either of us gets involved with another. And when I wish to bring him OS with me. So the agreement is important and I forsee us going to court earlier than i would have wished. i have a couple of appointments booked with CMai lawyers in the next couple of weeks. So I can select the best one for the job...

If anyone can make a recommendation of a CMai Family Law Lawyer- that would be great.

I just trying to get her to cooperate in a sensible manner for now. As she does have her son's best interests at heart. Yet our disputes impairs her judgment when she in a rage. So i must avoid any contact with her except in relation to our Son.

Ultimately I think she happy to receive something- being 4000bt, as opposed to nothing. As she begins to suffer financially and it only been 3 weeks without my help. At some stage will need to find another when she gives up on me.

I contemplated getting back in her life temporarily to obtain the original birth cert and original passport. Yet she will go on a rampage if she feels she has only been used to this end. yet having his originals would be very handy- maybe something I can negoitate with her at a later date. As she will have little fear when he is a Thai citizen.

I hope our custody agreement that will be produced in the next month will stand up in court WHEN their are hassles.

Thanks again

:jap:

[MikeyIdea]

"i will need to hire a nanny for 2 to 3 days from 4 as I work. Not retired as 33yo."

You shold be able to sleep with your child every night you have him. A Thai friend of mine used that fact in his custody battle, the mother let the children sleep with a relative (while she herself slept somewhere else) and the father confronted the mother; If the mother can't take care of the children herself, then she has to hand them over to the father. Occasionally is OK but no more than that. The mother can also play the same game as you can

Transfer money is good, that's leaves you with evidence. 100 bath per day is for 3 year old, it is a bit higher for a one year old because if nappies, powder milk etc, that's why I recommend 4,000, that's a reasonable amount enough for such a young child. I also think that you should hand over some extra things from time to time. Not money. Keep the reciepts and keep a diary of what you buy and do for the child. We must be reasonable. It's your child.

Borrow money is her problem. Regarding that she has done that, I suggest telling her that you pay more than legal amount and advice her to ask what she should do with her debt in court... You pay more than legal amount, that she can't handle money but builds up a debt is negative for her, not you...

"Yet if she agrees to a 4\3 split she will get the 6000bt pm and will not need to pay for 4 days for our son pw"

Good, negotiations are always good. You MUST take the issue to court to get legitimized and shared custody and 4/3 formalized regardless of if you two can agree and the mother actually honour her part of the agreement. You will never even see the judges if you agree For the future. 6,000 to the mother and a small majority of the time for you is a good deal for the mother and the child and you. Beware: What if the mother refuse to honour her part later? Wants more money or wil not hand over the child. Fairly common. I suggest strict rules: Money is always transferred, NEVER cash. 2 times per month (if you're in Thailand), extra that you want to give always things for the child (nappies whatever) that you keep report of. If she palys her game, you play your game - sue

"yet have the 5\2 or 4\3 listed on our contract"

You are not yet legitimized, that means that you canno't simply write an agreement with the mother regarding shared custody etc. Yet. It doesn't hold in court. You must get legitimized before you can write agreements with the mother. Hence, you must take this to court regardless of if you and the mother can agree or not.

Good Luck

[MikeyIdea]

"I contemplated getting back in her life temporarily to obtain the original birth cert and original passport. Yet she will go on a rampage if she feels she has only been used to this end. yet having his originals would be very handy- maybe something I can negoitate with her at a later date. As she will have little fear when he is a Thai citizen."

You can get new original BC and passport when you're back in Oz. Copy of BC is OK for the courts if you also do the following: You can get your copy of the BC stamped at the Australian Embassy, then you need to go to get certfied translation to Thai, then go to ministry of foreign affairs department of consular affairs and get certfied translation. That bunch of papers is good in court.

"I hope our custody agreement that will be produced in the next month will stand up in court WHEN their are hassles"

Not next month, Bangkok is 2 months waiting time for fact finding session, then probably 2 - 3 months totally before agreement that the judges sign is formally vaild. Expect 4 to 5 months from the day you file the case

Custody agreement done outside court between non-legitimized father and mother is not guaranteed to stand up in court. There has been a Supreme Court decision where one such agreement was ignored

Good Luck

[jayinoz]

"I contemplated getting back in her life temporarily to obtain the original birth cert and original passport. Yet she will go on a rampage if she feels she has only been used to this end. yet having his originals would be very handy- maybe something I can negoitate with her at a later date. As she will have little fear when he is a Thai citizen."

You can get new original BC and passport when you're back in Oz. Copy of BC is OK for the courts if you also do the following: You can get your copy of the BC stamped at the Australian Embassy, then you need to go to get certfied translation to Thai, then go to ministry of foreign affairs department of consular affairs and get certfied translation. That bunch of papers is good in court.

"I hope our custody agreement that will be produced in the next month will stand up in court WHEN their are hassles"

Not next month, Bangkok is 2 months waiting time for fact finding session, then probably 2 - 3 months totally before agreement that the judges sign is formally vaild. Expect 4 to 5 months from the day you file the case

Custody agreement done outside court between non-legitimized father and mother is not guaranteed to stand up in court. There has been a Supreme Court decision where one such agreement was ignored

Good Luck

Hi Mikey,

With a Por Lor 14 form from local Amphur to legit me as the father attached with DNA results to a contractual agreement should be enough i would have thought. Do you think?

Can she state she was forced into signing the agreement because of financial circumstances, etc. Thailand is meant to have freedom to produce contractual agreements. What i do not get is the necessity to get a court order IF the parents are in agreement.

Sounds like a money making deal for the courts to need to authorize anything and no lawyer will even look at a Farang for less than 60K bt. Just to get an authority.

In a perfect world- lol- I would have the outside agreement to show the court when I go for sole custody at a later date. If I get an agreement knocked up for 10K bt for her to sign attached with our DNA results and Por Lor 14 form. then i am guessing it will be approved in court.

To go to court know will only aggreviate my X and I will go through hel_l to get any time with my son. If she ignores the out of court agreement, whether in a month or year (It will happen) then i need to know that my case is solid in terms of the contract she breaks. I need her to break a contract to get an upper hand and for the court to see that she plays games for her benefit, not my son.

Thanks again Mikey.

[MikeyIdea]

Legitimize at amphur is only open for children who are old enough (approx 7). Court it normally is below that age. It's the court paper that matters, not the DNA.

"What i do not get is the necessity to get a court order IF the parents are in agreement"

I see that as - it is there to protect the child. Child and mother must agree according to law. If the child does not, then it has to be confirmed, that is all. If the child is too young to be able to confirm, then it has to be confirmed (in a court). Legitimization cannot be revoked according to law, better get it right.

" Can she state she was forced into signing the agreement because of financial circumstances, etc"

How does Juvenile law work? For the best of the child. If the mother sues, then court will take the case up and if the court finds it to be in the best interest of the child to change the agreement, then they surely can (got to be a good reason though). But it works both ways, if the court doesn't find a good reason to change the agreement, then they surely won't. That's why I recommend to make sure the mother has visitation rights - that's one of the few things that a court can use as reason to change a "father has sole custody" agreement, to guarantee that mother is able to see her child.

"Sounds like a money making deal for the courts"

Not really, courts get almost nothing. Lawyers make money on it though. It is boring and unnecessary for most western fathers but the law is not entirely wrong, it tries to protect the child. There are soo many bad Thai fathers in Thailand, and many good ones too. The contrasts make Thailand interesting. But how on earth writing a law that is good to everybody.. Can't. The law supports those who needs it most.

"guessing it will be approved in court"

Legitimization first - then write whatever agreement you want.

To make sure that an agreement stands, you must be the best father you can - and have visitation rights for the mother, only after appointment is OK

Best Guarantee - Be the best father you possibly can. There comes an age when the child will say who it wants to stay with and Thai courts listen (more than western courts) to the wish of the child. It's not going to be easy, it's going to be almost impossible, to fetch the child from the mother if he screams and wants to stay with mummy.

Good Luck

Edited June 22, 2010 by MikeyIdea

[sk1max]

You've had some interesting advice, but in my opinion if the worst should happen while in Thailand, your wife WILL get custody. I would have sought a divorce long ago if I thought I had a good chance of getting custody. Remember this is my opinion, but I'm in the situation you don't want to be in.

Edited June 22, 2010 by sk1max

[jayinoz]

Legitimize at amphur is only open for children who are old enough (approx 7). Court it normally is below that age. It's the court paper that matters, not the DNA.

"What i do not get is the necessity to get a court order IF the parents are in agreement"

I see that as - it is there to protect the child. Child and mother must agree according to law. If the child does not, then it has to be confirmed, that is all. If the child is too young to be able to confirm, then it has to be confirmed (in a court). Legitimization cannot be revoked according to law, better get it right.

" Can she state she was forced into signing the agreement because of financial circumstances, etc"

How does Juvenile law work? For the best of the child. If the mother sues, then court will take the case up and if the court finds it to be in the best interest of the child to change the agreement, then they surely can (got to be a good reason though). But it works both ways, if the court doesn't find a good reason to change the agreement, then they surely won't. That's why I recommend to make sure the mother has visitation rights - that's one of the few things that a court can use as reason to change a "father has sole custody" agreement, to guarantee that mother is able to see her child.

"Sounds like a money making deal for the courts"

Not really, courts get almost nothing. Lawyers make money on it though. It is boring and unnecessary for most western fathers but the law is not entirely wrong, it tries to protect the child. There are soo many bad Thai fathers in Thailand, and many good ones too. The contrasts make Thailand interesting. But how on earth writing a law that is good to everybody.. Can't. The law supports those who needs it most.

"guessing it will be approved in court"

Legitimization first - then write whatever agreement you want.

To make sure that an agreement stands, you must be the best father you can - and have visitation rights for the mother, only after appointment is OK

Best Guarantee - Be the best father you possibly can. There comes an age when the child will say who it wants to stay with and Thai courts listen (more than western courts) to the wish of the child. It's not going to be easy, it's going to be almost impossible, to fetch the child from the mother if he screams and wants to stay with mummy.

Good Luck

Ligitization in court? The Thai courts confirming you are the father and you have certain rights I guess. I have heard others get the Por Lor 14 form from Amphur for a child far less than 7 years old.... I thought it was a necessary step in Thailand to get yourself confirmed as the father. Sounds like this is all done in court.

Even though I am on the birth certificate, DNA, Aussie documentation as the primary carer, etc. It sounds like most of this does not matter when you go to live in Thailand.

The thing that annoys me that I have read on Thai Visa, is other men being able to claim they are your child's father. Even if they been around for a short time, the mother plays the men off against each other... Heard this many times and have left many a Farang very disillusioned to his rights in regards to caring for his child.

So my purpose is to confirm I am the primary carer of my child, always, no matter whom my X gets involved with in the future. I see the complications happening when she plays me off against another Farang- which she will enjoy. I do not wish to play these games. She may even feel that she will get additional money by using other men against me. Telling them pretend stories. Went through it with my 1st wife- I cannot be bothered playing those stupid games again.

I simply want access to my son and when necessary sole custody. Some girls will try anything and play off anyone against you to get what they want. I am sure others here have experienced similar events. Not pleasant when you just trying the best you can to simply give your child the best options in life.

As Mikey saids ultimately a child gets older and can think for themself. Even if hearing not the best of things about the Father polluting their ears. I would never say a negative thing to my son about his mother. Yet she will not show the same respect. That is apart of the games they play for their benefit. Ufortunately...

It would easier if I did not give a dam about my son- yet I do. So you need to do all you can to protect your own. Even in spite of the issues with the mother.

[jayinoz]

You've had some interesting advice, but in my opinion if the worst should happen while in Thailand, your wife WILL get custody. I would have sought a divorce long ago if I thought I had a good chance of getting custody. Remember this is my opinion, but I'm in the situation you don't want to be in.

SK, what is your situation. Mother hiding out with child? No access at all to child and paying child support. Worse still I guess is kids OS and paying big child support in Aussie or US, etc. I have a couple of mates who must send back far more than half of all they get and can bearly survive in Thai. let alone their own country.

If mother not giving access and she in Thailand you have options and access if done correctly. Mikey and others are proof of this...

This is a situation that would be very difficult to live with... In many ways I think we get a better deal to custody in Thai and child support than in our own countries.

The money I would need to pay out in Aussie is nearly 6x the Thai fees to gain access. In Aussie my X would get FREE legal representation and make up a whole bunch of lies. Result would be next to ZERO access for me and huge child maintanace payments. Aussie court system far more on the mothers side, not the childs best interests in my experience. If you have money then the court simply saids great pay more child support.

One guy spent $300,000 in court trying to gain access to child as mother was a drug addict. He lost and has lost all his life savings in the battle. Not a fair system for good fathers- IMO. We simply treated like sperm donors who only give money in my home land. I have many complaints about my home land thus why I live in thailand.

Cheers...

[sarahsbloke]

completely daft thought here

Why not provide the 'other white guy' yourself ........ hire her a lover (one who won't marry her if she has baggage)

[jayinoz]

completely daft thought here

Why not provide the 'other white guy' yourself ........ hire her a lover (one who won't marry her if she has baggage)

Lol- for what purpose... to mess with her mind?

She has all the choices in the world- she gets enough attention walking down the street... So she does not need me to hook her up.

If you suggesting to get her out of the way to pick up my son- that time will come sooner or later.

Also I never married her either- she got pregnant when in Aussie. So u must take responsibility for what u produce and care for....

Edited June 22, 2010 by jayinoz

[MikeyIdea]

You've had some interesting advice, but in my opinion if the worst should happen while in Thailand, your wife WILL get custody. I would have sought a divorce long ago if I thought I had a good chance of getting custody. Remember this is my opinion, but I'm in the situation you don't want to be in.

Yes, one of the main points in all that I write is that: Regardless of the mother is wanted by the police etc, it will take evidence that the mother is Bad for the child to remove her custody, or that she doesn't show up at all (and the court sees that the person who did show up really thinks about the best of his child of course). I don't think that even what jayinoz has will be enough to get sole custody. No one knows for sure though. The father WILL get custody in jayinoz case. Mother and father will get shared custody and possession is what the fight is about. Not custody or not.

"I would have sought a divorce long ago if I thought I had a good chance of getting custody"

There are many many out there living like that. If you are a good father who has cared for your child and can prove it, then you will get shared custody with the mother. This is the easy part. It is always difficult for both child and parents when divorce happens, everywhere in the world. Thailand is not a bad place to go to court actually. The parents not wanting to live in the same place, resentment, anger, revenge (more often on the female side, IMO) are all feelings causing more problems for the child than for the parents really. Happens everywhere.

"if I thought I had a good chance of getting custody"

What do you mean with custody? If you have been a good and caring father for your child and intend to be it also in the future, then you will get shared custody. Sole custody is a totally different ball game. What options regardling possession of the child can you accept? What options regarding possession do you think the mother deserve? What options regarding possession do you think you deserve? What options regardling possession of the child will the mother accept? And most of all: What is best for the child? These are very very difficult decisions everywhere in the world. I find it hard to believe that you or the mother, depending on who is better for the child, would get less than weekends. Agreements are often 5/2 or 4/3.

Then of course, when the child grows up and starts school, then SHE - the child will decide. Not in theory but in practice. Try fetching a 5 year old child crying and screaming that she wants to stay with xxx instead... That adds a new dimension to the problem. The farang father (whom most Thais think spoil their children by letting them do what they want) in fact often have stricter rules than the Thai mothers does. Which tend to push the child over to the mother. Not strict on bed times, OK to stay out later on days when child has to go to school the following day, OK to wake up late and come late to school, easier to stay home "sick" (watching cartoons) instead of going to school, OK to watch cartoons for hours, OK to eat candy before food, homework not as important...

The only guarantee, I think, is to try to be a good parent. That and patience

Edited June 23, 2010 by MikeyIdea

[MikeyIdea]

"Ligitization in court? The Thai courts confirming you are the father and you have certain rights I guess. I have heard others get the Por Lor 14 form from Amphur for a child far less than 7 years old.... I thought it was a necessary step in Thailand to get yourself confirmed as the father. Sounds like this is all done in court."

2 steps in Thailand. Legitimization = confirmation that you are legal father. Confirms that you have rights and duties but does not automatically apply them. Most cases in Thailand are handled as Legitimization AND custody is done at the same time, but it doesn't have to be that way. Sample: A mother sues the moderately rich but no good father who never wanted the child and therefore abandoned them requesting legitimization, sole custody and alimony. The father doesn't even bother to show up. The court will legitimate the father (confirm that the child is his), not give him any custody but order him to pay alimony to the mother regardless every month - as duties stay also if rights are removed. Father still doesn't pay and mother files another simple lawsuit. Court orders money to be drawn directly from fathers salary every month. There are several people working for the same company as I do that by court order gets money deducted from salary every month, don't know what the issues are about but the process to by court order make sure that people pay what they owe does exist in Thaland.

Legitimization can either be done in court or at amphur. Amphur normally require child to be approx 7 years old as child and mother must approve. I got my child legitimized at amphur when she was 3 years old, that is very unusual. Legitimization is also automatically applied (with shared custody) if the father marries the mother, that is also taken as a confirmation

"Even though I am on the birth certificate, DNA, Aussie documentation as the primary carer, etc. It sounds like most of this does not matter when you go to live in Thailand."

Correct. Fathers name on birth certificate means nothing when it comes to custody. DNA is simply not necessary, Australian documents showing that you have sole custody in Australia is good there, Thai courts will make their own opinion, then decide how it should be here.

"The thing that annoys me that I have read on Thai Visa, is other men being able to claim they are your child's father. Even if they been around for a short time, the mother plays the men off against each other... Heard this many times and have left many a Farang very disillusioned to his rights in regards to caring for his child."

Problem is sometimes that the mother thinks that she must have a fathers name on the BC, she desperately tries to find someone to put down as father because she thinks that she cannot get a BC for her child without it, she thinks that child without BC isn't allowed to go to school, hospital etc. Fact is that a BC can be issued with the fathers name blank, no problem. Then there are of course many mothers who have had her morale destroyed by bar life and try to play out western men against each other. The farang men add to the mess by paying way too much feeding the business and not confirming / thinking that it is difficult to confirm.

Edited June 23, 2010 by MikeyIdea

[jayinoz]

You've had some interesting advice, but in my opinion if the worst should happen while in Thailand, your wife WILL get custody. I would have sought a divorce long ago if I thought I had a good chance of getting custody. Remember this is my opinion, but I'm in the situation you don't want to be in.

Yes, one of the main points in all that I write is that: Regardless of the mother is wanted by the police etc, it will take evidence that the mother is Bad for the child to remove her custody, or that she doesn't show up at all (and the court sees that the person who did show up really thinks about the best of his child of course). I don't think that even what jayinoz has will be enough to get sole custody. No one knows for sure though. The father WILL get custody in jayinoz case. Mother and father will get shared custody and possession is what the fight is about. Not custody or not.

"I would have sought a divorce long ago if I thought I had a good chance of getting custody"

There are many many out there living like that. If you are a good father who has cared for your child and can prove it, then you will get shared custody with the mother. This is the easy part. It is always difficult for both child and parents when divorce happens, everywhere in the world. Thailand is not a bad place to go to court actually. The parents not wanting to live in the same place, resentment, anger, revenge (more often on the female side, IMO) are all feelings causing more problems for the child than for the parents really. Happens everywhere.

"if I thought I had a good chance of getting custody"

What do you mean with custody? If you have been a good and caring father for your child and intend to be it also in the future, then you will get shared custody. Sole custody is a totally different ball game. What options regardling possession of the child can you accept? What options regarding possession do you think the mother deserve? What options regarding possession do you think you deserve? What options regardling possession of the child will the mother accept? And most of all: What is best for the child? These are very very difficult decisions everywhere in the world. I find it hard to believe that you or the mother, depending on who is better for the child, would get less than weekends. Agreements are often 5/2 or 4/3.

Then of course, when the child grows up and starts school, then SHE - the child will decide. Not in theory but in practice. Try fetching a 5 year old child crying and screaming that she wants to stay with xxx instead... That adds a new dimension to the problem. The farang father (whom most Thais think spoil their children by letting them do what they want) in fact often have stricter rules than the Thai mothers does. Which tend to push the child over to the mother. Not strict on bed times, OK to stay out later on days when child has to go to school the following day, OK to wake up late and come late to school, easier to stay home "sick" (watching cartoons) instead of going to school, OK to watch cartoons for hours, OK to eat candy before food, homework not as important...

The only guarantee, I think, is to try to be a good parent. That and patience

Good insight again Mikey... always enjoy a read of your posts. Very detailed.

What i think the other father is trying to say is that these women make it very hard for us to see our children simply out of resentment and revenge.

These Thai girls feel that as it is their country that a Farang father has next to zero rights.

I think many would get a shock to end up in court. I know my partner will be very shocked.

Also I believe many thai girls use the child as an emotional cue to get what they want from past farang husbands or bf's. Although it happens all over the world.

I would also recommend that you do not do anything when a breakup is RAW in your mind and hers.

Never let the girl play your child off over you and a new man.

Mikey suggests paying the money to get as much access as possible, if you do not believe the mother is a good Mum. A 5\2 cut will put you in a prime position for the day you may wish for sole custody if the lady is not a good Mum.

In my case the Mum has a serious underlying illness but she is a very maternal Mum. So after the RAWness of the breakup went away I looked at what was best for my Son, not doing anything out of revenge. It only took me a week or 2 to settle down from the breakup- yet many sleepness nights after being together for 4 years and having a child together. There is o coming back from the actions she has taking against me this year and I have needed to accept that I simply pity her but have no feelings for her anymore. As she has tried to have me jailed for no reason and stabbed me, etc, etc. So I need to think about my son now- purely.

I took Mikey's recommendation and sent her 4000bt for the month. She will seriously struggle on this amount, yet she in the countryside, no rent to pay, etc. Yet got used to a 20000bt pm lifestyle not including a good condo and car expenses. Yet she has a huge good extended family. Something I cannot offer my son yet in Thailand.

So i need to get a 5\2 split then offer the 5 days to her, as recommended by Mikey. As then the court have it documented that they gave most of the custody to me. Yet if my X does good by my son I will give her more access.

Yet I have many things to do in Thailand and Aussie to legit my son in Thailand... This is what the lawyers will help me with...

Anyway i do think it is cruel that a girl uses our children as a bargaining chip. But that is life. Select a better partner if you can the next time is my approach.

As one day with a stable partner I may wish to take on the large majority of the custody. The mother will be allowed to visit occasionally, as agreed. If I win in court.

I agree Mikey 5\2 puts you in a very good position. Cheers jay

[jayinoz]

"Ligitization in court? The Thai courts confirming you are the father and you have certain rights I guess. I have heard others get the Por Lor 14 form from Amphur for a child far less than 7 years old.... I thought it was a necessary step in Thailand to get yourself confirmed as the father. Sounds like this is all done in court."

2 steps in Thailand. Legitimization = confirmation that you are legal father. Confirms that you have rights and duties but does not automatically apply them. Most cases in Thailand are handled as Legitimization AND custody is done at the same time, but it doesn't have to be that way. Sample: A mother sues the moderately rich but no good father who never wanted the child and therefore abandoned them requesting legitimization, sole custody and alimony. The father doesn't even bother to show up. The court will legitimate the father (confirm that the child is his), not give him any custody but order him to pay alimony to the mother regardless every month - as duties stay also if rights are removed. Father still doesn't pay and mother files another simple lawsuit. Court orders money to be drawn directly from fathers salary every month. There are several people working for the same company as I do that by court order gets money deducted from salary every month, don't know what the issues are about but the process to by court order make sure that people pay what they owe does exist in Thaland.

Legitimization can either be done in court or at amphur. Amphur normally require child to be approx 7 years old as child and mother must approve. I got my child legitimized at amphur when she was 3 years old, that is very unusual. Legitimization is also automatically applied (with shared custody) if the father marries the mother, that is also taken as a confirmation

"Even though I am on the birth certificate, DNA, Aussie documentation as the primary carer, etc. It sounds like most of this does not matter when you go to live in Thailand."

Correct. Fathers name on birth certificate means nothing when it comes to custody. DNA is simply not necessary, Australian documents showing that you have sole custody in Australia is good there, Thai courts will make their own opinion, then decide how it should be here.

"The thing that annoys me that I have read on Thai Visa, is other men being able to claim they are your child's father. Even if they been around for a short time, the mother plays the men off against each other... Heard this many times and have left many a Farang very disillusioned to his rights in regards to caring for his child."

Problem is sometimes that the mother thinks that she must have a fathers name on the BC, she desperately tries to find someone to put down as father because she thinks that she cannot get a BC for her child without it, she thinks that child without BC isn't allowed to go to school, hospital etc. Fact is that a BC can be issued with the fathers name blank, no problem. Then there are of course many mothers who have had her morale destroyed by bar life and try to play out western men against each other. The farang men add to the mess by paying way too much feeding the business and not confirming / thinking that it is difficult to confirm.

I was coming from the view that new Farang bf's wish to go to the Amphur and get issued a Lor por 14 form in the future to make them the legal father of your child. I have heard of this happening several times, I will never wish this to happen to me. When the child is old enough it seems simply for a new bf to simply apply as the legal father to your child.

I need to do everything possible to avoid this in the future. As I know my X, she will wish this to happen- she has told me directly. Purely out of spite and revenge.

A women scorned in Thailand is a dangerous thing, even when i did nothing wrong (In my eyes). Yet she was very insecure and thought i was cheating every single time I was out for more than an hour- which was not true. Yet our history many many years ago was that i took her away from a UK partner (Unknown to me) and huge issues arose. Somehow this is now my fault and she states it is Karma that I will never see my son again.

Yet I will by the legal processes. Illogical yet this is how she justifies her actions- insane through my eyes.

Edited June 23, 2010 by jayinoz

[jayinoz]

1 year on.....

Finished with thai x long ago....

Refuses to allow access to my son for many months.... lawyers say all against her.

Working bar in CMai and intimate photos taken of her profession for court. (Hope no one in there guys- Lol). As looked upon v bad in court.

Case being built for FULL Custody- with choice for Dad to allow visitation or not.

Her criminal record for court in assault with deadly weapon- HUGE.

Medical Hep chronic liver means little..... yet something.

Por Lor doco was not agreed by her and refuses money as she makes over 50k pm sex work in bars.

So an issue to get this done.... an offer been put forward to buy child as court cost them also. Girl not giving as much as receives so parents to decide.

End of day they take money and hand over OR court for sole, if not will be 5\2 our way.

Housekeepers, child minders, stable spouse must be in place before attempt full custody I think and takes time. Then move and select whether u wish Mum to ever see again as she working bar 95% time anyway.

No hard feelings here- she must do what she must with no education and she can pull nearly any man she wished for a good amount per night. So why not in her mind.

This cannot last for ever.... in 30s now, so the young 20s giving good ran now. Another few years maybe.... then suffering for my son.

But all will be concluded in few months. I hoping current spouse will accept- Lol. Or a deal breaker in our relationship- yet I think all OK.

Anyway full cost will be approx. 5K US. Either way- if accept offer of payment or go to court.

Cheers JAY