TM 30

[hapy2rtire]

Hello all,

I am back with another question. You ask were so much help beefier, I am hoping for same.

I got my 1 year OA retirement visa and this is my second day in CM. YIPPEE!

#1 In my last thread someone said the Thai consulate where I pick up my visa (Los Angeles) will tell you (me) that you need to check in with immigrations every 90 days while in Thailand. Well, the guy didn't tell me that and I was so excited to get my visa, I forgot to ask. Is this true?

Also in my last thread, someone said that if you leave Thailand within every 90 days (ie, never stay 90 consecutive days) you don't need to do the check in. Since I plan to travel SEA and Europe a lot, plus trips home, I'm planning on going somewhere out of Thailand at least

every 90 days, so figured I won't have to do any 90 day check ins. Great, right? Can someone confirm my understanding of this.

#2, It's my second day in Thailand and I met someone who says I have to do a TM 30? And that every time I leave and re-enter Thailand, I'll get a new TM 6 on arrival, and I will have to go to immigrations within 24 and fill out a new TM30, so the new TM6 matches the TM30, at a cost of 1000 bht per filing. What's this? No one has told me about the TM 30? Does it apply to me with my 1 year non immigrant OA retirement visa? Should I be doing it now? Like I'm already not in compliance because I've been here longer than 24 hours?

[marcusarelus]

Actually you have a 2 year visa but don't know it. 

[MikeN]

#1 Yes, if you are in Thailand for 90 days you do a 90 day report, if not you don't.

#2 that depends ......... If you are staying in a hotel or serviced apartment they should be doing it. If you are renting a condo from a private owner they "should" do it, but don't count on it. It certainly does not cost 1000 baht to submit it, but there is a fine for not doing it. It should be the owner/landlords problem but sometimes people go to Immigration for a visa extension or whatever and find it was never done, and then it becomes your problem.

[hapy2rtire]

On 4/26/2019 at 5:57 PM, MikeN said:

#1 Yes, if you are in Thailand for 90 days you do a 90 day report, if not you don't.

#2 that depends ......... If you are staying in a hotel or serviced apartment they should be doing it. If you are renting a condo from a private owner they "should" do it, but don't count on it. It certainly does not cost 1000 baht to submit it, but there is a fine for not doing it. It should be the owner/landlords problem but sometimes people go to Immigration for a visa extension or whatever and find it was never done, and then it becomes your problem.

Thank you. I did find a great empathy that explains it. I'm in a hotel now and they copied my passport so should have been done. I'm looking for a place to live/rent: condo vs house. At one condo I was explaining how I intend to travel and leave at least every 90 days. She did they would submit the TM30's online for me every time I re-enter... to just let them know. If I rent a house or something with a private owner, looks like I'll have to do it myself  if the traveler does it, they need to submit a proxy form signed by the owner stating its OK for the traveler to submit the paperwork instead of the owner. In the website there were many people stating the had trouble getting signatures from the owner within the 24 hours, and sometimes even at all.... examples were where the owner lived in another country. So it a suggested, that if you are renting from a, private owner and plan to go in and out of the country, to get a stack of proxy letters pre-signed. What a messed up system.

 

[JohnnyBD]

24 minutes ago, hapy2rtire said:

At one condo I was explaining how I intend to travel and leave at least every 90 days. She did they would submit the TM30's online for me every time I re-enter... to just let them know.

I'm not sure what the official rules are, but I have been here 3 yrs and have never filed a TM30 and have never informed my condo leasing company when I travel. The leasing company never told me I needed to inform them either. I only had to file one 90-day report due to timing of my trips, so I travel often. Never was questioned by IM either. Maybe the TM6 form at the airport is sufficient. I don't know anyone who runs down to IM within 24 hrs after returning and I don't anyone who tells their leasing company every time they return.

Edited April 27, 2019 by JohnnyBD

[hapy2rtire]

3 minutes ago, JohnnyBD said:

I'm not sure what the official rules are, but I have been here 3 yrs and have never filed a TM30 and have never informed my condo leasing company when I travel. The leasing company never told me I needed to inform them either. I only had to file one 90-day report due to timing of my trips, so I travel often. Never was questioned by IM either. Maybe the TM6 form at the airport serves the purpose of notifying IM when someone re-enters.

Yes, there was lots of discussing on this and many people who have been caught up in this... With every different kind of story, and others who have never filed one ever. I have no personal experience as I just arrived 3 days ago. What was mentioned is this law has been on the books for years but never enforced, but now to increase revenue, its being enforced more strictly. Someone asked why the TM6 wasn't enough and someone else said that there was a move to abolish the TM30 and only use the TM6, but apparently the TM6 does not register your arrival and /or lodging destination with a separate branch of the government that wants to keep statistics on foreigners. What was explained as the rationale for all this is every time you leave and reenter, you get a new TM6 that has a different number on it in the upper left corner and that number won't match your records.... or something like that. I think an analogy would be like every time you get a new passport, you get a new passport number, and if you have a visa into a country that lists your passport number, you now need to get a new visa too, so the visa has the correct passport number on it. You have to file a new TM30 so the TM 6 and the last TM30 you had on file match. Idk, maybe I'm not understanding the specifics. But there was LONG discussions about people getting caught up in this mess and others having no idea anything like this existed. But apparently if you go in for your 90 day, and you get an officer who now thinks this is important, and you can't prove (with receipts) TM30 's were filled in your behalf by your property owner /landlord /even your wife if you live in her house.... there is a fine. Google TM30. The site that gave all the great info was one of the first listed.

[BuckBee]

TM30 and reporting in 24hrs been the law for decades but it wasn't enforced generally unless some offices wanted hassle you/easy fine money .

Currently it is being enforced and it is a complete PITA process if unable get paperwork together you get trapped in a thai groundhog day .

Immigration also not doing other visa requests until a TM30 issue resolved so many people currently finding out the hard way over this.

I never done one in decades but if I went changwattana on Monday I be fined and need sort one before they move on with any other immigration services .

 

Certainly worth getting up to speed on tm30 rules an paperwork ...

Edited April 27, 2019 by BuckBee

[oldcpu]

I thought this a good place to enter my experience (as a landlord) in obtaining a TM30 for tenants.

 

My Thai wife and I own a condo that we purchased about 3 years ago, with the intent that we would move in to it later this year as our retirement home.  For the past 3 years we have been renting the condo to different tenants, being fortunate to find tenants who would stay from 3 to 4 months in duration.  Often their planned stay would go past their initial Visa.

 

We have been living in Europe during this time frame.  What we did was have a relative of my Thai wife go to immigration, and obtain help from the immigration officials to set up an account for us on the Thai immigration site on the internet, such that we can enter the information for the TM30 via the Internet.  

 

When a tenant shows up in our condo in Thailand, they take a picture of the appropriate information in their passport with their smartphone, and email it to us, using the high-speed wifi in our rented condo.  My wife then immediately logs on to the Thai web site, enters the information into the TM30 section, and does an appropriate 'screen print' showing the information she entered on the tenant.  We then email back to them an electronic copy of that TM30 screen print.

 

If they go away for a day or more to somewhere else in Thailand, they email us and let us know when they return to our condominium, and we resubmit the TM30 information over the Internet - obtain a new screen print, and sent that to them.

 

On 3 separate occasions, our tenants have gone to immigration for a visa extension, and they brought with them the TM30 'screen print' and it has been accepted by immigration.

 

My main point, is just because the landlord is out of the country does not mean the landlord can not submit a TM30.  But the landlord needs to organize themselves and think in advance how they plan to do this.

 

The first time my Thai wife entered the TM30 information on the Internet it was slow and difficult (as there are some peculiarities to the immigration software) but after the 1st time, its been smooth and quick since.   On occasion the immigration site has been 'down', but in each case, if we tried again a few hours later, it was back 'up' again.  I suspect for someone who does not read/speak Thai, it could be more difficult.  Possibly with Google Chrome translations 'on the fly' it may be possible to navigate the immigration web site < unsure > .

Edited April 27, 2019 by oldcpu

[hapy2rtire]

4 hours ago, oldcpu said:

I thought this a good place to enter my experience (as a landlord) in obtaining a TM30 for tenants.

 

My Thai wife and I own a condo that we purchased about 3 years ago, with the intent that we would move in to it later this year as our retirement home.  For the past 3 years we have been renting the condo to different tenants, being fortunate to find tenants who would stay from 3 to 4 months in duration.  Often their planned stay would go past their initial Visa.

 

We have been living in Europe during this time frame.  What we did was have a relative of my Thai wife go to immigration, and obtain help from the immigration officials to set up an account for us on the Thai immigration site on the internet, such that we can enter the information for the TM30 via the Internet.  

 

When a tenant shows up in our condo in Thailand, they take a picture of the appropriate information in their passport with their smartphone, and email it to us, using the high-speed wifi in our rented condo.  My wife then immediately logs on to the Thai web site, enters the information into the TM30 section, and does an appropriate 'screen print' showing the information she entered on the tenant.  We then email back to them an electronic copy of that TM30 screen print.

 

If they go away for a day or more to somewhere else in Thailand, they email us and let us know when they return to our condominium, and we resubmit the TM30 information over the Internet - obtain a new screen print, and sent that to them.

 

On 3 separate occasions, our tenants have gone to immigration for a visa extension, and they brought with them the TM30 'screen print' and it has been accepted by immigration.

 

My main point, is just because the landlord is out of the country does not mean the landlord can not submit a TM30.  But the landlord needs to organize themselves and think in advance how they plan to do this.

 

The first time my Thai wife entered the TM30 information on the Internet it was slow and difficult (as there are some peculiarities to the immigration software) but after the 1st time, its been smooth and quick since.   On occasion the immigration site has been 'down', but in each case, if we tried again a few hours later, it was back 'up' again.  I suspect for someone who does not read/speak Thai, it could be more difficult.  Possibly with Google Chrome translations 'on the fly' it may be possible to navigate the immigration web site < unsure > .

Thanks for the wonderful explanation. I think established places like the condo I was looking at are dialed in to the website and can do it easily. And as I understand it, that's the law, that is the responsibility of the landlord to submit the info and they are the ones who are supposed to get the fine if it wasn't done. What other prior were commenting on, on the TM30 website I read, is many not - so - computer - landlords don't know how to use the website and delivering the paperwork personally is a pain, or they just don't know it's a requirement, or the tenant doesn't know and doesn't tell the landlord when they come and go. In all of those scenarios it doesn't get done, and then when the tenant eventually goes to immigration for something else, they are held up with resolving this issue first. At that point the landlord (of the past) is far gone or they profess the tenant did not inform them and it ultimately ends up being the tenant (traveler) who pays the fine in order to move along whatever else it is they were trying to do at immigrations. The website said that even a person married to a Thai, living together... that the Thai spouse has to file a TM30 whenever the immigrant spouse come back to the residence.... even if they have only been gone one night.

it's a hugely cumbersome regulation. I just read last night that tourism is down significantly in Thailand for the first time ever. With tourism being a main commodity, maybe some of these immigration issues will change for the positive in the future.

[mtls2005]

5 hours ago, oldcpu said:

My main point, is just because the landlord is out of the country does not mean the landlord can not submit a TM30. 

 

I guess I'm surprised that you can access this website from outside of Thailand? Or are you using a VPN?

 

https://extranet.immigration.go.th/fn24online/

 

5 hours ago, oldcpu said:

We then email back to them an electronic copy of that TM30 screen print.

 

So, do you ever receive a receipt or confirmation of the TM-30 submittal? I'm surprised Immigration accepts a screen-print, but if it was accepted and matches their system, understand that they might.

 

It's not obvious to me that I can self-register, or self-report, so we're still reliant on out landlords/housemasters to file for us. And I can't imagine how complex this would be with more than one unit and "customers" coming and going on different days.

 

Finally, your Condo Juristic entity allows sub-leases of short duration? That is unusual, IME.

 

 

 

 

[lkv]

For people on non O-A's, non compliance of TM30 is cheaper and hassle free.

 

Not advising others what to do, but if it was me on a non O-A, with a 12 month permission of stay at a time, I would avoid Immigration offices, and therefore avoid TM30 fines.

 

Yes, I know it would come back to me first time I would require any service from Immigration, but it's just not worth the hassle reporting yourself every single time for 800 baht. Find the owner, the owner cannot be found, he does not want to do it, I have to do it, etc etc etc.

 

Since the OP hasn't reported anyways yet, he might just leave it as it is.

 

In reference to the 90 day reports, I would also put in balance a 2,000 baht fine vs lost time and hassle over the course of 12 months.

Edited April 28, 2019 by lkv

[oldcpu]

8 hours ago, mtls2005 said:

I guess I'm surprised that you can access this website from outside of Thailand? Or are you using a VPN?

We can access the Thai immigration web site from Europe. It is very slow at times - but it works.

 

Quote

So, do you ever receive a receipt or confirmation of the TM-30 submittal? I'm surprised Immigration accepts a screen-print, but if it was accepted and matches their system, understand that they might.

According to my Thai wife, unfortunately the Thai immigration web site (for TM30 registration) software is not yet setup to provide a receipt nor confirmation TM-30 print out.  So a screen-print is all that one can do.  I believe the immigration officials are aware of that.  I suspect they can also login to the database and confirm that which is on the screen print is accurate - although this 'suspicion' of mine is speculation.

 

Quote

Finally, your Condo Juristic entity allows sub-leases of short duration? That is unusual, IME.

Its not a sub-lease.  We are co-owners of a unit in the condominium.  The Condominium Juristic Person (CJP) allows rentals compliant with Thai law, which our understanding (and CJP understanding) is rentals one month or longer are legal.  Rentals less than one month, not legal for condominiums that do not meet Hotel regulations and not registered as such (if such registry for a condo is even possible, which it may not be).

Edited April 28, 2019 by oldcpu

[oldcpu]

45 minutes ago, lkv said:

For people on non O-A's, non compliance of TM30 is cheaper and hassle free.

Out of curiousity, how is non-compliance cheaper?  There is a risk the entire time one is staying in Thailand if one is not registered via a TM30.   

 

Is it not better to have a landlord who properly submits the TM30, which costs the tenant nothing and costs the landlord nothing except their time to both register one in the TM30 immigration database and then send the tenant (on the non-O-A) a screen print copy of the TM30?

 

Edited April 28, 2019 by oldcpu
fixed typo

[BritManToo]

2 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

Out of curiousity, how is non-compliance cheaper?  There is a risk the entire time one is staying in Thailand if one is not registered via a TM30.   

 

Is it not better to have a landlord who properly submits the TM30, which costs the tenant nothing and costs the landlord nothing except their time to both register one in the TM30 immigration database and then send the tenant (on the non-O-A) a screen print copy of the TM30?

 

You forget the landlord has just admitted to renting properties to the government and will have to pay tax on that rental.

[MeePeeMai]

50 minutes ago, lkv said:

For people on non O-A's, non compliance of TM30 is cheaper and hassle free.

 

You would be putting your next extension at risk.  Once you are non-compliant, and have been warned, you are skating on thin ice in my book.  I don't believe it is cheaper either.  No TM30 = No 90 day report (at my nearest Immigration Office).

[ubonjoe]

4 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

You forget the landlord has just admitted to renting properties to the government and will have to pay tax on that rental.

That is not correct.

Immigration does not inform the revenue department about TM30 reports.

[oldcpu]

2 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

You forget the landlord has just admitted to renting properties to the government and will have to pay tax on that rental.

Hmm ... I guess we have a different way of looking at this.   I had assumed paying tax on rental was necessary per the law whether a TM30 is issued or not issued.

 

As a side speculation, my suspicion also is Thailand may still be sorting out the information exchange between Thai immigration and Thai Tax/Revenue - and likely at present time this information is not being passed between departments.   Having typed that speculation, my view also is that it is better for the landlord to pay tax on their rental, as I believe to do otherwise would be against Thai law.  

[BritManToo]

2 minutes ago, MeePeeMai said:

You would be putting your next extension at risk.  Once you are non-compliant, and have been warned, you are skating on thin ice in my book.  I don't believe it is cheaper either.  No TM30 = No 90 day report (at my nearest Immigration Office).

Most on single/multi entry don't do 90 day reports or TM30s. 

I only see immigration when I cross the border.

I don't do extensions, so there is nothing to risk.

Edited April 28, 2019 by BritManToo

[BritManToo]

4 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

That is not correct.

Immigration does not inform the revenue department about TM30 reports.

If I were a landlord avoiding paying tax, I'd want to produce as little official documentation as possible.

[MeePeeMai]

1 minute ago, BritManToo said:

Most on single/multi entry don't do 90 day reports or TM30s. 

I only see immigration when I cross the border.

I don't do extensions, so there is nothing to risk.

If you can make the most of this loophole then it is a good thing (until things change) but I do not fancy leaving the country every 90 days.  I hate airports and border crossings so for me this is not an option that I would consider.  

 

It is specified though that a TM30 shall be filed (within 24 hours) every time after your return to Thailand.  This may affect you and others like you in the near future.

[ubonjoe]

5 minutes ago, MeePeeMai said:

It is specified though that a TM30 shall be filed (within 24 hours) every time after your return to Thailand. 

Not at all immigration offices.

Many offices only want one if you change addresses which is the correct interpretation of the immigration act IMO.

[BritManToo]

9 minutes ago, MeePeeMai said:

If you can make the most of this loophole then it is a good thing (until things change) but I do not fancy leaving the country every 90 days.  I hate airports and border crossings so for me this is not an option that I would consider.  

 

It is specified though that a TM30 shall be filed (within 24 hours) every time after your return to Thailand.  This may affect you and others like you in the near future.

I've been living in the same house for 7 years and it's address is on every entry form I've ever made.

If that isn't good enough for them then &^%k em.

[MeePeeMai]

3 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

Not at all immigration offices.

Many offices only want one if you change addresses which is the correct interpretation of the immigration act IMO.

I thought a change of address was reported on the TM28 form.  I wish they would all use the correct interpretation of the Immigration Act.

 

I guess some Immigration Offices consider sleeping in any bed (other than the one you slept in last night) a "change of address".

[oldcpu]

27 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Most on single/multi entry don't do 90 day reports or TM30s. 

The landlord thou still needs to register the foreigner via the TM30.   And IMHO the landlord should then provide the tenant a copy/evidence of the TM30.   

 

Where IMHO it gets more difficult wrt implementation, is not for the landlord registering the main (foreign) tenant staying in a condo unit, but when guests stay for only a couple of days with main tenant.   There were a few occasions in past few years where a tenant on a 3-month rent of my condo, had their (foreign) family staying with them for a few nights  My wife and I had to act quick, and register those guests in the Thai immigration database.    In one case it turned out to be important, as these guests on the next day, went to Thai immigration to extend their Visa ...  If we had not prepared the TM30, there could have been fines.

 

We made it very clear to our tenant, that any time they had foreign guests (ie non-Thai) staying with them in our condo, that they needed to inform us immediately (and send us their passport/entry info) such that we could be complaint with the Thai law for a TM30 (24 hour registration requirement).

 

A further complication is when my wife and I stay with her Thai family.   Her family are supposed to register us via a TM30, but they are not set up for that.   IMHO from a practical perspective, when staying with a Thai family in a Thai owned house, the TM30 registration gets much more difficult to implement.

 

Edited April 28, 2019 by oldcpu

[Rally123]

Difference.

 

Quote

Immigration Act Section 37 (TM 28)

The only section of the immigration act that is relevant is Section 37: 4 which involves notifying the police.

If the alien travels to any province and will stay there longer than twenty – four hours , such alien must notify the police 
official of the police station for that area within forty – eight hours from the time of arrival.

 

Quote

Notification of residence of foreigners for businesses (TM 30)

According to section 38 of the 1979 immigration act, "House owners, heads of household, landlords or 
managers of hotels who accommodate foreign nationals on a temporary basis who stay in the kingdom legally, must 
notify the local immigration authorities within 24 hours from the time of arrival of the foreign national."

If there is no immigration office in the province or locality of the respective house or hotel, the notification 
is made to the local police station.

http://donslifeinthailand.com/TM28_Imm_Law.html

[MeePeeMai]

1 minute ago, oldcpu said:

A further complication is when my wife and I stay with her Thai family.   Her family are supposed to register us via a TM30, but they are not set up for that.   IMHO from a practical perspective, when staying with a Thai family in a Thai owned house, the TM30 registration gets much more difficult to implement.

 

When I used to come here and stay with my wife's family in Isaan (before I retired here), we once went to the Police Station to report the TM30 (as it is stated that you may report to the nearest police station if there is no Immigration Office in your area).

 

We were just trying to follow the law and my in-laws live 2 hours from the nearest I.O. so we went to the nearest police station to report my stay at their house.  The Police there didn't have a clue what we were trying to accomplish so I showed them a printout of the law (in Thai) and they just dismissed it and said "We don't do that here, maybe they do that in Bangkok but we don't care about that here."

 

Go figure.

 

[Rally123]

5 minutes ago, Rally123 said:

According to section 38 of the 1979 immigration act, "House owners, heads of household, landlords or 
managers of hotels who accommodate foreign nationals on a temporary basis who stay in the kingdom legally, must 
notify the local immigration authorities within 24 hours from the time of arrival of the foreign national."


What is the interpretation of 'temporary basis'?

Edited April 28, 2019 by Rally123

[ubonjoe]

14 minutes ago, MeePeeMai said:

I thought a change of address was reported on the TM28 form.  I wish they would all use the correct interpretation of the Immigration Act.

I would be a permanent change of address which might require both forms or at some offices only a TM30 form.

[MeePeeMai]

1 minute ago, Rally123 said:

What is the interpretation of 'temporary basis'?

Whatever suits them at that time.

[ubonjoe]

11 minutes ago, Rally123 said:

What is the interpretation of 'temporary basis'?

That is not exactly the wording in the immigration act. Nor is the source of that a official or a reliable source of info.

From section 38 of the immigration act of 1979.

 

"Section 38 : The house – master , the owner or the possessor of the residence , or the hotel manager
where the alien , receiving permission to stay temporary in the Kingdom has stayed , must notify the
competent official of the Immigration Office located in the same area with that hours , dwelling place or
hotel, within 24 hours from the time of arrival of the alien concerned."

 

The permission to stay temporary is the status of the anybody that does not have permanent residency in the country under chapter 4 of the immigration act.