Farang's Rights To Property After Thai Wife's Death

[Nawtilus]

Has anybody had any experience or know of anyone with half/half kids left land, but being under aged they have to have the court decide/approve any decisions.

Just wondering how long and what this legal process is of getting something approved under the guardianship route with kids owning property.

For example, mum dies, kids left land. Dad wants to sell the land and move elsewhere. What is the length of time for this proceudre to happen, surely it would <deleted> up any sales as a quick process I doubt it would be.

[LoveDaBlues]

wolfmanjack's list from the civil code is correct. However, if one make's a will, this takes precedence over the "natural succession" list. A Thai wife can leave a house and land to her falang husband, but in reality his chances of enjoying his inheritance (for all the reasons stated by other corrs) are probably nil.

I had this discussion on TV with Dragonman about a year ago. At the end of the day, the only way to have peace of mind is to put a properly drawn up and recorded 30 year lease on the property.

Having said the above, it should be noted that Sections 93 and 87 of the Land Code state that the statutory heir can inherit and own up to one rai of land for residential purposes. I have had an attorney (Thai) look into this and I specifically questioned whether a farang would have a ghost of a chance to get ownership of the land. The attorney called up the Competent Authority at the Land Dept. in Bangkok. The Competent Authority stated that Section 93 states "The Minister shall.......", but said in practice no permission is required from the Minister. The Land Dept. makes the decision and according to the law the foreigner would be able to inherit up to one rai for residential purposes.

Having said this, please refer back to my first paragraph.

After talking to 3 Thai lawyers this is the conclusion I came to also. I have a 30-year property lease with an option for another 30 with the same conditions. If the GF should die before me her heirs have to honor the 30 year lease (by law) but not the renewal option. The GF SHOULD outlive me as I'm 50 and she is 26. There is a clause in my lease that the GF must pay me 1 million baht should she break the lease. Not really sure if this would hold up in court but it doesn't hurt to have it in the lease.

[Arkady]

Land in the southern most states is very cheap and not many buddhist thais want to go there. If you convert to Islam, speak malay and dont get involved then you should be ok. Nothing to stop you having fun outside of there, and even if the family know ou have land there, they wont be interested in it for the near future. The thai government even gives land away down there to very poor people - because they dont want it either...

I like the idea of buying up land in the deep South. There must be a lot of Thai Chinese willing to sell up at any price and get the hel_l out. Eventually the situation will quieten down and prices would go up. Probably best to avoid agricultural land as it is more emotional but land or commercial property in the main cities could do well on a 5-10 year time horizon. Risk is that they will go independent and expropriate your Thai nominee, unless you have a Muslim nominee.

[Khun Bob]

Dont buy land from a thai-chinese, buy from a thai-thai or a thai-malay = let the cause run and the thai-chinese land will be occupied and acquired without exchange of money - justly deserved ?

Also by converting and being a silent member of the cause, come the time of independance or reconcilliation, you may be well placed ?

You can convert very quickly and a muslim man can have non-muslim wives - there is no need for them to convert.

Still it may give some pleasure to offer a Thai-Chinese 10% of their asking price and see what they do !

Land in the southern most states is very cheap and not many buddhist thais want to go there. If you convert to Islam, speak malay and dont get involved then you should be ok. Nothing to stop you having fun outside of there, and even if the family know ou have land there, they wont be interested in it for the near future. The thai government even gives land away down there to very poor people - because they dont want it either...

I like the idea of buying up land in the deep South. There must be a lot of Thai Chinese willing to sell up at any price and get the hel_l out. Eventually the situation will quieten down and prices would go up. Probably best to avoid agricultural land as it is more emotional but land or commercial property in the main cities could do well on a 5-10 year time horizon. Risk is that they will go independent and expropriate your Thai nominee, unless you have a Muslim nominee.

[busterh]

wolfmanjack's list from the civil code is correct. However, if one make's a will, this takes precedence over the "natural succession" list. A Thai wife can leave a house and land to her falang husband, but in reality his chances of enjoying his inheritance (for all the reasons stated by other corrs) are probably nil. If the Minister of the Interior doesn't get you, her family probably wil!

My Thai wife who I loved very much died 8 weeks ago at the age of 39. She lived with me in Australia for 8 years. We were legally married but she did not have a will.

A few years ago we bought a house (small 2 story attached villa in Bangkhen) for 1,100,000 baht. I guess it would be worth about 1.5-2 million now (which is about say 60,000 Australian dollars. The house was supposed to be an investment but her old mum retired (She was a Buddhist nun) and needed a place to live. Although I never intended supporting her family I loved my wife so much (and considered my money to be hers) so I was happy for her to live there. My wife also has 2 brothers. She also owned some land in the country which I don't think is worth much.

My wife did not have a will but before she died expressed verbally her wish that her Mum be able to live in the house till she dies and then I would then sell it and get the proceeds.

One of the brothers has been pressing me for the original death certificate. Originally I felt very trusting towards him but I am now suspicious. He also said something to one of my wife's friends (which she loyally passed on to me) suggesting that he had other ideas. Now having read this forum it sounds like I am "stuffed " as we say downunder.

Given that she has no will I am assuming that I am going to lose the property.

Should I contact a lawyer and if so does anyone have a recommendation? Or will it be a waste of money? Any suggestions would be very much appreciated. Can I deal with this from here or do I need to go to Thailand? I do have a trip planned but not till July.

thanks

Edited March 25, 2007 by busterh

[Arkady]

wolfmanjack's list from the civil code is correct. However, if one make's a will, this takes precedence over the "natural succession" list. A Thai wife can leave a house and land to her falang husband, but in reality his chances of enjoying his inheritance (for all the reasons stated by other corrs) are probably nil. If the Minister of the Interior doesn't get you, her family probably wil!

My Thai wife who I loved very much died 8 weeks ago at the age of 39. She lived with me in Australia for 8 years. We were legally married but she did not have a will.

A few years ago we bought a house (small 2 story attached villa in Bangkhen) for 1,100,000 baht. I guess it would be worth about 1.5-2 million now (which is about say 60,000 Australian dollars. The house was supposed to be an investment but her old mum retired (She was a Buddhist nun) and needed a place to live. Although I never intended supporting her family I loved my wife so much (and considered my money to be hers) so I was happy for her to live there. My wife also has 2 brothers. She also owned some land in the country which I don't think is worth much.

My wife did not have a will but before she died expressed verbally her wish that her Mum be able to live in the house till she dies and then I would then sell it and get the proceeds.

One of the brothers has been pressing me for the original death certificate. Originally I felt very trusting towards him but I am now suspicious. He also said something to one of my wife's friends (which she loyally passed on to me) suggesting that he had other ideas. Now having read this forum it sounds like I am "stuffed " as we say downunder.

Given that she has no will I am assuming that I am going to lose the property.

Should I contact a lawyer and if so does anyone have a recommendation? Or will it be a waste of money? Any suggestions would be very much appreciated. Can I deal with this from here or do I need to go to Thailand? I do have a trip planned but not till July.

thanks

I am very sorry to hear about your wife.

I would think that your priorities at this stage would be: 1) don't hand over the death certificate to the brother or anyone else at this stage; 2) see or correspond with a decent Thai lawyer as soon as you can. Try to find some one who really knows about family law - not just a Thai law firm that advertises visas and work permits for farangs at a cut rate. Try Sunbelt for one. They are a cut above the average firm that does work for individual farangs and they hire Thai lawyers.

Even though your wife didn't leave a formal will, you know what her wishes were and it sounds extremely unlikely that your brother-in-law has any intention of respecting these wishes. It is very likely that he would like to grab the property and sell it, with accommodation for his mother being a very low priority in his planning. Actually under Thai law an oral will made in extreme circumstances such as on a death bed is legal, if properly witnessed. However, given that your two brothers-in-law may be itching to challenge any will that might show up, this would have a very low chance of success and would be very expensive and cumbersome to bring witnesses from Australia. If you haven't told your in laws already that there is no will, you might consider producing one that reflects your wife's wishes. Foreign wills are legal in Thailand, if properly witnessed and just need a certified translation to be used in court. This is of course fraudulent but on the other hand, even if you were able to produce a genuine will you would probably run the same risk of being accused of fraud! Assuming no will I think you would have to share the estate with your wife's mother and father, if he is still alive, but not with the two brothers. See this web page for info on inheritance laws but don't assume it is gospel http://www.samuiforsale.com/Inheritance.htm .) This would create a major complication in that you cannot own the land jointly with your mother-in-law, since you are not Thai. In fact even if a court allowed you to have sole possession by virtue of a will, you would probably have to sell the property and perhaps buy a condo for your mother-in-law which coud be in your name.

If you are prepared to bite the bullet and give up on getting the proceeds from selling the house after your mother-in-law's death (in the event that she predeceases you) but still want to ensure she can stay in the house, as your wife wished, you should consider trying to arrange that the house is transferred to her. Assuming you are entitled to share it with her in the event of intestacy, this would mean technically that she would have to pay you half the value of the house which you could waive. In this situation the brothers would be less motivated to get in the way because they would stand to inherit the house eventually from their mother. Of course, they might still intimidate their mother to transfer the house to them and evict her but not much you could do about that and at least you would have done the right thing. This would probably be the most honourable and least confrontational course and the old bird might live for donkeys years anyway. Otherwise, you can produce a will and try to get the house, then buy a condo in your name for the mother, or you can decide, after getting advice from a lawyer, that it is not going to be worth a lot of hassle and expense and leave it to your wife's family to fight over.

[busterh]

wolfmanjack's list from the civil code is correct. However, if one make's a will, this takes precedence over the "natural succession" list. A Thai wife can leave a house and land to her falang husband, but in reality his chances of enjoying his inheritance (for all the reasons stated by other corrs) are probably nil. If the Minister of the Interior doesn't get you, her family probably wil!

My Thai wife who I loved very much died 8 weeks ago at the age of 39. She lived with me in Australia for 8 years. We were legally married but she did not have a will.

A few years ago we bought a house (small 2 story attached villa in Bangkhen) for 1,100,000 baht. I guess it would be worth about 1.5-2 million now (which is about say 60,000 Australian dollars. The house was supposed to be an investment but her old mum retired (She was a Buddhist nun) and needed a place to live. Although I never intended supporting her family I loved my wife so much (and considered my money to be hers) so I was happy for her to live there. My wife also has 2 brothers. She also owned some land in the country which I don't think is worth much.

My wife did not have a will but before she died expressed verbally her wish that her Mum be able to live in the house till she dies and then I would then sell it and get the proceeds.

One of the brothers has been pressing me for the original death certificate. Originally I felt very trusting towards him but I am now suspicious. He also said something to one of my wife's friends (which she loyally passed on to me) suggesting that he had other ideas. Now having read this forum it sounds like I am "stuffed " as we say downunder.

Given that she has no will I am assuming that I am going to lose the property.

Should I contact a lawyer and if so does anyone have a recommendation? Or will it be a waste of money? Any suggestions would be very much appreciated. Can I deal with this from here or do I need to go to Thailand? I do have a trip planned but not till July.

thanks

I am very sorry to hear about your wife.

I would think that your priorities at this stage would be: 1) don't hand over the death certificate to the brother or anyone else at this stage; 2) see or correspond with a decent Thai lawyer as soon as you can. Try to find some one who really knows about family law - not just a Thai law firm that advertises visas and work permits for farangs at a cut rate. Try Sunbelt for one. They are a cut above the average firm that does work for individual farangs and they hire Thai lawyers.

Even though your wife didn't leave a formal will, you know what her wishes were and it sounds extremely unlikely that your brother-in-law has any intention of respecting these wishes. It is very likely that he would like to grab the property and sell it, with accommodation for his mother being a very low priority in his planning. Actually under Thai law an oral will made in extreme circumstances such as on a death bed is legal, if properly witnessed. However, given that your two brothers-in-law may be itching to challenge any will that might show up, this would have a very low chance of success and would be very expensive and cumbersome to bring witnesses from Australia. If you haven't told your in laws already that there is no will, you might consider producing one that reflects your wife's wishes. Foreign wills are legal in Thailand, if properly witnessed and just need a certified translation to be used in court. This is of course fraudulent but on the other hand, even if you were able to produce a genuine will you would probably run the same risk of being accused of fraud! Assuming no will I think you would have to share the estate with your wife's mother and father, if he is still alive, but not with the two brothers. See this web page for info on inheritance laws but don't assume it is gospel http://www.samuiforsale.com/Inheritance.htm .) This would create a major complication in that you cannot own the land jointly with your mother-in-law, since you are not Thai. In fact even if a court allowed you to have sole possession by virtue of a will, you would probably have to sell the property and perhaps buy a condo for your mother-in-law which coud be in your name.

If you are prepared to bite the bullet and give up on getting the proceeds from selling the house after your mother-in-law's death (in the event that she predeceases you) but still want to ensure she can stay in the house, as your wife wished, you should consider trying to arrange that the house is transferred to her. Assuming you are entitled to share it with her in the event of intestacy, this would mean technically that she would have to pay you half the value of the house which you could waive. In this situation the brothers would be less motivated to get in the way because they would stand to inherit the house eventually from their mother. Of course, they might still intimidate their mother to transfer the house to them and evict her but not much you could do about that and at least you would have done the right thing. This would probably be the most honourable and least confrontational course and the old bird might live for donkeys years anyway. Otherwise, you can produce a will and try to get the house, then buy a condo in your name for the mother, or you can decide, after getting advice from a lawyer, that it is not going to be worth a lot of hassle and expense and leave it to your wife's family to fight over.

thanks for the hel;pful advice.

I have contacted Sunbelt and they have been very prompt in responding. It seems that they might be able to get me registered as half owner of the house. I am not getting carried away with the positive advice. I am paying the price of never having wanted to talk to my wife about a will when she was sick and trusting her family as I trusted her.

[MarcHolt]

Yes but hasn't bendix has thrown a curve ball? If the chap signed a paper at the land office, stating that he has no rights to the property would he still be able to inherit it?

It seems doubtful to me, but seeing as this has not been tested (to our knowledge) its a question as to which law would take precedence over the other but unfortunately that's a question I can't answer.

They get ya comin' and goin', don't they?

This is Thailand. Make sure you get excellent legal advice whenever you are presented with a paper to sign. Even then, there are no guarantees, are there?

[Martin]

My father had a very deeply-held view about inheritance. He said it was a curse.

I never got around to asking him what had caused him to have that view, but I think that he had seen some lives made miserable by it.

He said it was not only a curse, but made doubly worse by people not leaving wills, and that we should make our wills on our 21st birthdays, and periodically revise them.

He also told us that we had already had our inheritance---our genes and the schooling that he and my mother had worked hard for us to get---and he had no intention of leaving us any more. That seemed very fair to me.

I think that if every child was brought up to the idea that an adult going around without a will was very bad manners, and so should make a will immediately upon becoming an adult, the world would be a better place.

[Arkady]

thanks for the hel;pful advice.

I have contacted Sunbelt and they have been very prompt in responding. It seems that they might be able to get me registered as half owner of the house. I am not getting carried away with the positive advice. I am paying the price of never having wanted to talk to my wife about a will when she was sick and trusting her family as I trusted her.

Good luck. I hope things work out.

[Eneukman]

I have no formal legal qualifications (having a professional banking one instead) but I spent 25 years in Scotland administering the estates of deceased people.

If there is no Will, where heritable property (real estate), the law of the country in which the property is situated takes precedence. In this instance, Thai law will dictate what is to happen to the house, though any existing lease should be honoured.

I hope something acceptable to all parties can be worked out.

Alan