Trump says it's up to China to deal with Hong Kong 'riots'

[heybruce]

On 8/4/2019 at 1:28 AM, Traubert said:

I follow the news continuously, How is China seriously interfering in Hong Kong's legislative and legal systems?

 

You see, that's all you get, never the details, because there are no details, just a muddy accusation.

 

If you're talking about the extradition proposal, brought in after a HK-er murdered his Taiwanese girlfriend and fled to safety in HK, it's been shelved, yet the riots carry on and it was never proposed at the behest of the mainland Government anyway, more like the Taiwanese government.

 

On 8/4/2019 at 3:07 AM, heybruce said:

You follow the news continuously but are unaware that China controls who can run for election in Hong Kong? 

 

" The protest was in response to a “white paper” from Beijing that made clear that only “patriots” would be allowed to run for chief executive in Hong Kong. To many in Hong Kong, this signaled that Beijing intended to keep a tight rein on Hong Kong’s political reforms — and political autonomy. "   https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/06/11/why-are-there-massive-protests-hong-kong/?noredirect&utm_term=.ca1c99ddc72b

 

12 hours ago, Traubert said:

I'm quite aware.

 

It's a Chinese city in China, why shouldn't they control who runs for election? Political parties around the world vet their candidates, why should China be any different?

You asked " How is China seriously interfering in Hong Kong's legislative and legal systems? " and suggested that I didn't have any evidence of such.  When I presented solid evidence your response is that it's ok for China to dictate who can govern Hong Kong.

 

Are you "quite aware" that your reversal is stunningly hypocritical?

[Morch]

On 8/4/2019 at 5:59 AM, mikebike said:

Charity starts at home. Until the USA govt resolves exactly the same issues at home they have no fundamental standing in other regions struggle to defend democracy. The current US govt aligns far more closely with the oppressive Chinese regime than it does with the HK protestors.

 

The usual hyperbole. The USA, even under the current administration is nowhere near China's level of repressions and control. Exactly the same? Maybe in some posters' wild imagination. Especially when the need to "win" some internet argument prevails.

 

 

[Traubert]

12 hours ago, bristolboy said:

There's a difference between a political party vetting the candidates and a government vetting the candidates. Of course in a nation that allows only one political party the difference between it and the government is a distinction without a difference. 

Precisely. It takes 25 years and more to climb the political ladder in China. Why invite an amateur in?

 

China watches and learns. ????

 

By the way, there are 9 political parties in China and yes there are democratic elections every two years.

[Traubert]

1 hour ago, heybruce said:

 

 

You asked " How is China seriously interfering in Hong Kong's legislative and legal systems? " and suggested that I didn't have any evidence of such.  When I presented solid evidence your response is that it's ok for China to dictate who can govern Hong Kong.

 

Are you "quite aware" that your reversal is stunningly hypocritical?

Are you quite aware that your definition of 'stunningly hypocritical' is way off?

 

This was the system as agreed under the handover, and nothing has changed. The British only granted this stulted form of democracy to cause problems on their way out. China has stood by it. Britain never gave HK-ers a vote until the last minute, and then only the select few,  and signed off on the Basic Law as formulated in Beijing.

 

You need to do some serious reading that doesn't involve Wikipedia mate.

[NightSky]

Trump is loving the fact China might end up looking like the big bully here.

 

Im not a Trump fan but im not a China fan either...

 

The freedom of the hong kong people are being used as political pawns.

[Traubert]

The Hong Kong people have the same level of freedom they had 22 years ago. More than they had previous to that actually, under the Brits.

 

Unless someone can tell me different.

[heybruce]

1 hour ago, Traubert said:

Precisely. It takes 25 years and more to climb the political ladder in China. Why invite an amateur in?

 

China watches and learns. ????

 

By the way, there are 9 political parties in China and yes there are democratic elections every two years.

There is one party in China that holds all the power and eight minor parties tolerated by the Chinese Communist Party so long as they don't get out of line.

 

Tell us about these elections in China.  Are they free and fair?  Can the press report on them without censorship?  Do they ever change the fact that the Communist Party holds all power and won't give it up?

 

 

[heybruce]

47 minutes ago, Traubert said:

Are you quite aware that your definition of 'stunningly hypocritical' is way off?

 

This was the system as agreed under the handover, and nothing has changed. The British only granted this stulted form of democracy to cause problems on their way out. China has stood by it. Britain never gave HK-ers a vote until the last minute, and then only the select few,  and signed off on the Basic Law as formulated in Beijing.

 

You need to do some serious reading that doesn't involve Wikipedia mate.

Strange that there were no massive protests against British rule.  Could it be that Britain didn't offend the residents of Hong Kong as much as China does?

 

This is not the system that was agreed at handover.  Where in that agreement was China given the right to vet all candidates running for political office in Hong Kong? 

 

Regardless of how it was under Britain, China agreed to give Hong Kong autonomy for fifty years.  It is not abiding by that agreement, and the residents of Hong Kong are protesting.  The President of the US should, at the very least, offer verbal support for these protests.

[usviphotography]

3 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Strange that there were no massive protests against British rule.  Could it be that Britain didn't offend the residents of Hong Kong as much as China does?

 

This is not the system that was agreed at handover.  Where in that agreement was China given the right to vet all candidates running for political office in Hong Kong? 

 

Regardless of how it was under Britain, China agreed to give Hong Kong autonomy for fifty years.  It is not abiding by that agreement, and the residents of Hong Kong are protesting.  The President of the US should, at the very least, offer verbal support for these protests.

China will argue that it is operating within the terms of the agreement. Look, it is like those agreements the Big Tech Companies tried to write in to computer and phone sales that prevented you from using third party technicians to repair your device. Yeah, maybe you "agreed" to that when buying the device, but once you bring it home they don't have any control over whether you abide by their stupid terms or not. UK is in the same spot. They handed Hong Kong over to the Chicoms.  UK had no ability to enforce compliance with any terms after that. They lost all influence over Hong Kong the day they gave it up and they knew that going in.

 

As for Trump and America, the USA never made any agreement with China over Hong Kong's status. Hong Kong was a British colony, and we recognized it as such, and then it became Chinese after official handover, and we recognized it as such. USA was not a party to the side deal made between the British and Chinese. And it is of no particular interest to the United States whether China exerts full control over Hong Kong in 2019 or waits till 2047. If anything, the US would probably welcome an earlier take over as it would have a negative overall affect on the HK economy and that would be helpful to the US in the midst of the current trade war which escalated massively today with China's new monetary moves. 

[heybruce]

15 minutes ago, usviphotography said:

China will argue that it is operating within the terms of the agreement. Look, it is like those agreements the Big Tech Companies tried to write in to computer and phone sales that prevented you from using third party technicians to repair your device. Yeah, maybe you "agreed" to that when buying the device, but once you bring it home they don't have any control over whether you abide by their stupid terms or not. UK is in the same spot. They handed Hong Kong over to the Chicoms.  UK had no ability to enforce compliance with any terms after that. They lost all influence over Hong Kong the day they gave it up and they knew that going in.

 

As for Trump and America, the USA never made any agreement with China over Hong Kong's status. Hong Kong was a British colony, and we recognized it as such, and then it became Chinese after official handover, and we recognized it as such. USA was not a party to the side deal made between the British and Chinese. And it is of no particular interest to the United States whether China exerts full control over Hong Kong in 2019 or waits till 2047. If anything, the US would probably welcome an earlier take over as it would have a negative overall affect on the HK economy and that would be helpful to the US in the midst of the current trade war which escalated massively today with China's new monetary moves. 

I doubt that China would even bother to argue they are abiding by the handover agreement.

 

America never made any agreements regarding governance of Hong Kong or Venezuela.  Yet Trump is imposing sanctions and threatening worse against Venezuela, while refusing to offer something as minor as lip service for freedom in Hong Kong.

[usviphotography]

17 minutes ago, heybruce said:

I doubt that China would even bother to argue they are abiding by the handover agreement.

 

America never made any agreements regarding governance of Hong Kong or Venezuela.  Yet Trump is imposing sanctions and threatening worse against Venezuela, while refusing to offer something as minor as lip service for freedom in Hong Kong.

In fairness, most analysts believe the Venezuela stuff was mostly Pompeo and Bolton's doing. I don't think Trump cared much either way and after the coup failed he seems to have gone off the project entirely.  

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/trump-bored-maduro-guaido-cuba-foreign-policy-john-bolton-a8969231.html

 

As for Hong Kong, what does Trump sticking his nose in to things accomplish other than reinforce the notion among the Chinese leadership that the Hong Kong protests are being directed and supported by the West? The best outcome for Hong Kong right now is some kind of face saving arrangement where China gets maybe half the stuff they want and HK agrees to end the protests. Trump threatening China would make such an agreement virtually impossible because it would then look like China was being bullied in to a deal by a foreign power. 

 

If you really care about Hong Kong, you'd appreciate what Trump is doing because it is the smart play. He's NOT being a loudmouth blowhard queering a potential deal. To the contrary, he's giving China the cover they need to make a deal without losing face. Will it work? Maybe not. China's hand is really strong and HK's is really weak and China may just impose its will anyway. But this gives the situation the best chance it has of a positive outcome. 

[heybruce]

7 hours ago, usviphotography said:

In fairness, most analysts believe the Venezuela stuff was mostly Pompeo and Bolton's doing. I don't think Trump cared much either way and after the coup failed he seems to have gone off the project entirely.  

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/trump-bored-maduro-guaido-cuba-foreign-policy-john-bolton-a8969231.html

 

As for Hong Kong, what does Trump sticking his nose in to things accomplish other than reinforce the notion among the Chinese leadership that the Hong Kong protests are being directed and supported by the West? The best outcome for Hong Kong right now is some kind of face saving arrangement where China gets maybe half the stuff they want and HK agrees to end the protests. Trump threatening China would make such an agreement virtually impossible because it would then look like China was being bullied in to a deal by a foreign power. 

 

If you really care about Hong Kong, you'd appreciate what Trump is doing because it is the smart play. He's NOT being a loudmouth blowhard queering a potential deal. To the contrary, he's giving China the cover they need to make a deal without losing face. Will it work? Maybe not. China's hand is really strong and HK's is really weak and China may just impose its will anyway. But this gives the situation the best chance it has of a positive outcome. 

Right, Trump should not antagonize China by calling for it to respect its agreement with Hong Kong.  Just as Reagan should not have antagonized the USSR by calling for Gorbachev to "tear down that wall".

[Fex Bluse]

On 8/2/2019 at 9:32 PM, Tug said:

Atta boy Donald throw another group of people yearning for democracy under the bus just another way Donald betrays American ideals 

No, he's done the correct thing.

 

The Hong Konger's, just as all Asians, don't support any Western initiatives. They care only about themselves and opportunistically cry for outside help only when under threat.

 

Let them fall and see if they are willing to fight China for their professed ideals.

 

Same for Taiwan and the rest of Asia.

 

The whole of the continent is deeply xenophobic, so let them sort it all out.

[mikebike]

5 minutes ago, Fex Bluse said:

Let them fall and see if they are willing to fight China for their professed ideals.

They are already risking everything by repeatedly poking the panda... are you asking for a nation of 7 million to militarily take on a nation of 1.4 BILLION?

 

Surely you jest.

[Fex Bluse]

14 minutes ago, mikebike said:

They are already risking everything by repeatedly poking the panda... are you asking for a nation of 7 million to militarily take on a nation of 1.4 BILLION?

 

Surely you jest.

What I am saying is that they are not "our people" and so I don't care and Westerners should stop telling ourselves that people in this part of the world share in our core values. They don't and only pretend to when it suits them.

 

As noted by all sorts of prominent academics, Asia is probably the most deeply clan like or xenophobic region in the world. Look at its rates of homogeneity, for example.

 

The West should ONLY risk helping Hong Kong if it is in OUR best interests. We in the West have far too naive and gullible for decades. Enough is enough. Time for us to toughen up.

 

Do you genuinely care about them?

Edited August 6, 2019 by Fex Bluse

[mikebike]

8 minutes ago, Fex Bluse said:

What I am saying is that they are not "our people" and so I don't care and Westerners should stop telling ourselves that people in this part of the world share in our core values.

Currently we are having a wee bit of a debate regarding core values in the west aren’t we.... hard to determine exactly what they are other than capitalism and the economy.

[Fex Bluse]

5 minutes ago, mikebike said:

Currently we are having a wee bit of a debate regarding core values in the west aren’t we.... hard to determine exactly what they are other than capitalism and the economy.

Sure, the West has it's own issues.

 

So, maybe a fair starting point is to enact reciprocal laws and policies with countries in Asia.

 

Review land and business ownership and representation or lack of it under the laws? That will hint at differences in values.

 

When a thorough review of said policies is completed, it will be painfully obvious how aggressively Asians have been taking advantage of the West for decades.

Edited August 6, 2019 by Fex Bluse

[mikebike]

49 minutes ago, Fex Bluse said:

Sure, the West has it's own issues.

 

So, maybe a fair starting point is to enact reciprocal laws and policies with countries in Asia.

 

Review land and business ownership and representation or lack of it under the laws? That will hint at differences in values.

 

When a thorough review of said policies is completed, it will be painfully obvious how aggressively Asians have been taking advantage of the West for decades.

We can’t even work out reciprocal laws and policies within the west... Paris Climate Accord; NATO; World Court; etc... this idea is a non-starter.

[Fex Bluse]

15 minutes ago, mikebike said:

We can’t even work out reciprocal laws and policies within the west... Paris Climate Accord; NATO; World Court; etc... this idea is a non-starter.

Ok, so what's the solution to nations strategically harming us? Like China, for example.

 

Just hope and pray they will eventually be nice?

[mikebike]

On 8/6/2019 at 12:53 PM, Fex Bluse said:

Ok, so what's the solution to nations strategically harming us? Like China, for example.

 

Just hope and pray they will eventually be nice?

Dont know what this has to do with HK/China but...

 

More similarities than differences and both sides work better if they have some sort of a connection. Work the common ground. Same as a business agreements between competing firms.