Dream Shattered...

[GuestHouse]

There are always two sides to a story, so let's try and be balanced.

Before moving to Thailand we sat down and I looked her in the eye and said, 'are you sure you want to do this?'

Perhaps time for some more eye contact and searching questions - Think of the two sides of this; life in Pattaya and life with your son.

Do YOU really want to do this?

[Barney_the_Dinosaur]

Are you willing to swap them two kids and your gf for a life in Thailand? If you stay here longer you might well lose your family and I wouldn't blame them for not taking you back, you seem to have shunned them pretty easily. Loving living in Thailand more than being a father to your kids, sorry something just a little shameful there.

Yes don't risk losing your kids to a new Daddy. Eg a Polish plumber.

Metinks a case of TIT.

[longway]

Are you willing to swap them two kids and your gf for a life in Thailand? If you stay here longer you might well lose your family and I wouldn't blame them for not taking you back, you seem to have shunned them pretty easily. Loving living in Thailand more than being a father to your kids, sorry something just a little shameful there.

Yes don't risk losing your kids to a new Daddy. Eg a Polish plumber.

Metinks a case of TIT.

what you have to say is true bkk especially with the 2nd child on the way.

but the way she left him and ran off home speaks volumes. if she did not like it she should told him that she wanted to go home asap, not do a runner then issue an ultimatum from blighty.

maybe it is best if he did swallow his pride and go home to his family, however they already seem to have lost the ability to communicate in an adult fashion, not to mention the way the op drips info. here

go home you've got no real choice unless you dont love her anymore and are happy being an absent father.

Edited March 20, 2007 by longway

[0Mix1up]

women claiming not to be jealous of other women....lol

same same men not competitive with other men...555

(please note: I did not define a race)

[Jeff1]

I don't think she'll change her mind, from what you say, so you do need to decide what is most important to you. It's very sad that access to your child is caught up in this, but from what you've said, it looks like you're at stalemate at the moment. I think the ball is firmly in your court, but your decision has to be based on what you want. If you go back solely for her, you'll resent her & eventually your relationship will break down anyway. Good luck.

I agree with this and can not say it any better.

Good luck in whatever you decide to do.

[solent01]

I agree with bkkmadness, Helicopter, without belittling you or putting you down, it does sound like you need to grow up some, be a man and stand up to your responsibilities.

[sbk]

women claiming not to be jealous of other women....lol

same same men not competitive with other men...555

(please note: I did not define a race)

Lets keep it on topic

And while I am at it, lets keep it polite and within forum rules please.

[bkkmadness]

If you go back solely for her, you'll resent her & eventually your relationship will break down anyway.

I don't agree with this at all. I agree there is a chance it might happen but that is up to Helicopter I think. She's hardly destroyed his life has she and he doesn't have a great deal to be resentful about. Unless he is going to resent his fiance for making a decision under a trying situation that she felt was best for her and the 1 yr old son and unborn baby, and then further resent her more for taking his chance away to live in Pattaya?

Is Thailand worth so much to Helicopter? I love Thailand, would I swap two kids in the UK for it? No chance.

If you start a family, then you need to be prepared to make the necessary sacrifices. You don't start resenting people when it's time for those sacrifices to be made.

[Barney_the_Dinosaur]

Yes, Helicopter can always come back to Thailand when the kids are grown up. Go and be a council gritter back in the UK for now.

Thailand ain't going nowhere. And the granddaughters of all the pooying today will be there as future playmates.

People often think "If I leave Asia, I shall never return" , but thats false psychology, you can come back later.

Edited March 20, 2007 by Barney_the_Dinosaur

[GuestHouse]

I'd have thought the best course of action for the OP is to ask for leave and go home to sort the problem out.

As noted, the information that his wife/fiancee pregnant again is highly relevant.

The OP would be better advised to listen to her and her concerns and spend less time listening to those here on TV who have an axe to grind against western women - She is afterall the mother of one of his children and soon to be the mother of his second.

Dreams Shattered is a good title, but I don't think the dream that is shattering has anything to do with Thailand.

[donna]

I'd have thought the best course of action for the OP is to ask for leave and go home to sort the problem out.

As noted, the information that his wife/fiancee pregnant again is highly relevant.

The OP would be better advised to listen to her and her concerns and spend less time listening to those here on TV who have an axe to grind against western women - She is afterall the mother of one of his children and soon to be the mother of his second.

Dreams Shattered is a good title, but I don't think the dream that is shattering has anything to do with Thailand.

well put guesthouse.

[bkkmadness]

I'd have thought the best course of action for the OP is to ask for leave and go home to sort the problem out.

Simple and sound advice, get back there and discuss this with the people that matter. It's not going to be easy making the right decision whilst you are both so far apart.

[buriramboy]

lets turn this around a bit, helicopter is the one earning a good wage (i presume) and not his partner, and with a 1 year old baby already and being 4 months pregnant, her employmnt prospects are not exactly good if she was to be on her own. Why not return the ultimatum, as in you can have a good life here in Thailand with your future husband and the father of your kids or be a single mother in England, what is more important to you??

Maybe that was a bit harsh, re-reading it, but at least tell her to come back here and make an effort this time, because if you go running this time, i guarantee it won't be the last time.

BB

[lannarebirth]

I'd have thought the best course of action for the OP is to ask for leave and go home to sort the problem out.

As noted, the information that his wife/fiancee pregnant again is highly relevant.

The OP would be better advised to listen to her and her concerns and spend less time listening to those here on TV who have an axe to grind against western women - She is afterall the mother of one of his children and soon to be the mother of his second.

Dreams Shattered is a good title, but I don't think the dream that is shattering has anything to do with Thailand.

I think you're right, this isn't about Thailand. I think it's about choosing a life partner.

I spent a career at sea and never married. I could have married and had opportunities, but no matter what women say, it is a rare woman that actually can stand separation and doesn't resent a career that involves separation.

The OP was not separated from his wife/girlfriend. Anyone who's ever worked abroad knows you can do 3 months in a shithole, standing on your head if you have to, and the suburbs of Pattaya is hardly a "hardship posting". To back out of a relatively short commitment of 1 year and throw everyones life around you into disorder is abnormal behaviour. I'd want to know how much and for how long my children and I would have to look forward to this type of behaviour You're right to suggest he speak/listen to her, and soon, and make an honest appraisal of what his life may be like in the future.

[helicoptor]

We decided to come to Thailand because of the opportunity that was given to us, a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. My fiancee was not happy with life in the UK and neither was I. The area where we lived was crime-ridden, the children running around were little hooligans, And the thought of our boy growing up in the area sent shivers down both our spines. Thailand was never going to be a permanent thing but we agreed before coming here that we would give it a few years. I would like to think that we could have stuck it out for a few years, not a few months, made a success of the business, (which is on plan) made some money and moved back either to the UK or posted onto NZ or Australia when our son started school age.

In the UK I had an averagely paid job, I struggled from month to month with bills. Honest Joe in the UK who works hard gets stung with increasing taxes and National Insurance. I sold everything that wasn't nailed down in my house and rented it unfurnished to an agency. I sold my car

So I have an empty house to go back to in the same shitty area, with unofficial bonfires on the facing park every Saturday night. No car and no job

Here we lived in a gated complex with security and other ex-pats living nearby who are all friendly, yes some have thai/filipino gf's wives but we also met ex-pat couples who weren't Thai. Great climate and did not have to worry about money. I know Pattaya is not the best area but we were far enough away from it for it not to touch us.

Internet access at home with webcam/skype so she could talk to her family and friends

I sorry If i am 'dripping' information but I am not an articulate poster unlike some. I am just an ordinary bloke who wanted a better life for my family, instead she has gone back to the UK, straight to the social, got a house sorted (in another shitty area)

I miss my son like mad and If I stop and ponder too much I am in floods of tears, its his first birthday in two weeks, where is my empathy?? sod off. No-one, not even my fiancee would argue I was not a doting father. and yes I don't really miss my fiancee because while she was here no matter what was done to make life comfortable for us all it was never going to be enough for her. It was always about what we didn't have, not about what we had. Comparing things to the UK constantly and complaining about everything that was alien. I am still very upset and angry with her. And so that I resent her even more she is now using our son as an emotional lever in forcing a decision from me....borne out of a selfish decision she has made.

Feel free to correct the grammar and punctuation

[redrus]

First of all, I'd like to take issue with a couple of things previous posters have said - and I feel I am eminently qualified to do so, as I am one of the farang women they are generalising about!

UG - what on earth are you on about? You can't imagine why any straight farang woman would want to come here? Well, as a straight farang woman, shall I enlighten you? Pretty much the same reasons as you blokes, apart from the girls - and some of us have even gone so far as to <gasp> have relationships with Thai blokes as well. Talk about equal opportunities...

Mobi d'ark - Western women immediately feel jealous of Thai women whether they admit it or not? Really? And I guess you'd know being a Western woman? Oh, sorry, you're not, are you? I'm not jealous of Thai women. I'd like to get nice shoes to fit, but other than that I couldn't give a toss whether they are more petite than me, prettier than me, have better figures than me (subjective - Reubens would have preferred my figure, but even I would have been too skinny for him!) I've seen some of the blokes some of them end up with - I can assure you I'm certainly not jealous of that!

Please guys, don't generalise, esp when you don't know what you're talking about.

Back on topic, Helicoptor, I don't know your situation. It does sound to me that your fiancee didn't give it a fair try, three months isn't enough time IMO to adapt to a whole new lifestyle. However, a lot of people, particularly women do find it hard & very scary to break out of their comfort zone/rut & just can't handle the pressure of a completely new & different life. When I moved to LoS a female friend came with me & it was exactly the same story, she made no real effort to get a job, but moaned when they didn't fall in her lap, she didn't try to adapt & (like your fiancee) went back to UK within a few months.

I don't think she'll change her mind, from what you say, so you do need to decide what is most important to you. It's very sad that access to your child is caught up in this, but from what you've said, it looks like you're at stalemate at the moment. I think the ball is firmly in your court, but your decision has to be based on what you want. If you go back solely for her, you'll resent her & eventually your relationship will break down anyway. Good luck.

Great post NR.

I have a farang GF and she is in no way jealous of Thai ladies, as I in turn am not attracted to them . I can see some are pretty and very attractive but, not for me.

When we visit we always enjoy it and I think could live there very easily, we always interact with all, locals, expats and other travellers. She doesn't have much choice with me though.

I don't have time to read the whole thread at them mo, as its grown quite long. I will read it all in time.

I think NR's advise is sound, I think you need to stay where you are for the mo and let your wife calm down and take stock of what she's doing/done.

Concentrate on your job and bring home the money, see what happens in a little time.

She will be missing you too you know.... :D

redrus

[bkkmadness]

lets turn this around a bit, helicopter is the one earning a good wage (i presume) and not his partner, and with a 1 year old baby already and being 4 months pregnant, her employmnt prospects are not exactly good if she was to be on her own. Why not return the ultimatum, as in you can have a good life here in Thailand with your future husband and the father of your kids or be a single mother in England, what is more important to you??

Maybe that was a bit harsh, re-reading it, but at least tell her to come back here and make an effort this time, because if you go running this time, i guarantee it won't be the last time.

BB

Being a single mother doesn't necessarily mean a council flat and a giro either, she might be very comfortable financially. And from her point of view obviously living in Thailand isn't the good life.

She might be a single mother but she has her family there, friends there, the healthcare she is used to, familiarity with her surroundings etc. Being pregnant these things are going to be very important to her.

Didn't the Helicopter suggest she get a job to help her adjust? I'm not sure that's all she needs, besides how long was he planning she work for, a few months at best? And after that? The same old problem comes back, loneliness, developing country, new baby etc. it's a lot for a pregnant woman to bear on her shoulders.

I very much doubt she's coming back to Thailand now, and after the kid is born even more doubtful. In a few years, well then you have to think about education etc.

[bina]

several points:

1. pregnant women are hormonal, miss home, and familiar surroundings, fear of giving birth in a 'third world' country/hospital, new situations to adjust to, raising a young child and adjusting to new attitudes, fear of 'diseases, etc of third world' (dont forget, this is life, not vacation for 6 wks and then go back to familiar cosmetics, meds., food, social norms).

i say this cause 21 years ago i moved to a 'foriegn' country to be with fiance (now my ex); i was lonely, didnt speak the language, didnt (and stil dont for the most part) get along with the 'native' women, and not neccessarily with all the anglosaxon expat women either, was afraid of the hospitals, meds, etc. (not the same as american private health care which i had always had; suddenly public health, long waits, a harsher more spartan attitude to health, pregnancy etc), etc etc etc.

in the end i did adjust. but the first year was hel_l. though it didnt really cross my mind to get up and leave (no kids at that point, just personality type that 'sticks it out'.)

but even if your wife looked u in the eye and said she was willing to try, it just means that she underestimated the realities of moving to a foriegn country. she probably really did mean that she would try it, but mixed with pregnancy etc, she moved back.

now your turn to compromise. afterall, she did try.

my sister in law was an expat in japan. she had the same issues. she stuck out the time with ehr husband, gave birth in a japanese hospital, etc. but she says it was the worst time of her life.

and guys: just remember all these posts about thai women/wives going back to thailand, missing home etc. maybe its true, women are more home oriented, and home is where they declare home to be whether its back with family/friends, or in a tent in the desert with goats.

bina

israel

[bkkmadness]

Reading your last post Helicopter I do have to say I feel for you mate, but really you need to go and sort this out with her for the sake of the kids as well as yourself. Any chance you can fly over to speak to her face to face?

Maybe moving away from a shitty area in the UK (fully understand what you mean there) has to come in a few years and maybe Thailand has gotta be skipped in favour of Australia or whatever. The shitty area doesn't affect your kids so much while they are this young age so maybe you need to sacrifice these few years and think about getting out of the UK at a later date when things are a bit more settled with the gf and kids.

Despite my ranting I wish you the best of luck.

[buriramboy]

several points:

1. pregnant women are hormonal, miss home, and familiar surroundings, fear of giving birth in a 'third world' country/hospital, new situations to adjust to, raising a young child and adjusting to new attitudes, fear of 'diseases, etc of third world' (dont forget, this is life, not vacation for 6 wks and then go back to familiar cosmetics, meds., food, social norms).

i say this cause 21 years ago i moved to a 'foriegn' country to be with fiance (now my ex); i was lonely, didnt speak the language, didnt (and stil dont for the most part) get along with the 'native' women, and not neccessarily with all the anglosaxon expat women either, was afraid of the hospitals, meds, etc. (not the same as american private health care which i had always had; suddenly public health, long waits, a harsher more spartan attitude to health, pregnancy etc), etc etc etc.

in the end i did adjust. but the first year was hel_l. though it didnt really cross my mind to get up and leave (no kids at that point, just personality type that 'sticks it out'.)

but even if your wife looked u in the eye and said she was willing to try, it just means that she underestimated the realities of moving to a foriegn country. she probably really did mean that she would try it, but mixed with pregnancy etc, she moved back.

now your turn to compromise. afterall, she did try.

my sister in law was an expat in japan. she had the same issues. she stuck out the time with ehr husband, gave birth in a japanese hospital, etc. but she says it was the worst time of her life.

and guys: just remember all these posts about thai women/wives going back to thailand, missing home etc. maybe its true, women are more home oriented, and home is where they declare home to be whether its back with family/friends, or in a tent in the desert with goats.

bina

israel

i'd hardly call 3 months trying, i'd call it downright selfish.

[bkkmadness]

but even if your wife looked u in the eye and said she was willing to try, it just means that she underestimated the realities of moving to a foriegn country.

Single men with no family ties underestimate it all the time, some barely manage 6 months, perfectly understandable that she underestimated it as well. The sudden pregnancy must have really turned everything upside down.

[GuestHouse]

The fact that she is pregnant is significant, so I believe is the fact that you chose not to mention this in your OP.

She may not, for any number of reasons be happy with her life in Thailand now - her pregnancy is again hugely significant.

She may be suffering with hormone imbalance, absolutely natural during pregnancy; she may be missing her family/mother/sister/friends etc, again absolutely natural and doubly so in pregnancy.

There are other issues too. Not, how is she fitting in to expat life and how is she settling into Thailand, but how are YOU BOTH fitting into expat life and how are you both settling in to Thailand.

Everything you have written talks of the shattering of your dream - but surely this is your family's dream.

If your wife is not happy in Thailand, or anywhere else for that matter, it is your responsibility as a couple to sort it out.

Bleating about missing your son seems a bit hollow when an air ticket home costs a few hundred pounds.

Again, go speak to your manager, get yourself home and sort it out.

There are all sorts of options, bringing someone else back with you to help your wife with her pregnancy, getting help and advice in the UK, getting help and advice from members of the expat community (And I suggest here you'd be a lot better off approaching people in the Pattaya International Ladies Club than asking for advice from men who have in large numbers run off to Thailand to escape their own responsibility.

There's a lot of help out there if you really want it.

I'd also ask yourself a couple of other questions:

Where is your life heading if you don't sort this out?

Where is your wife's life going?

And absolutely most important of all.

Where are your children's lives going?

This picture you paint of the UK you left behind does indeed seem a bit dreary, your struggles to get by in life, the environment you were living in, it all sounds a terrible, and no I wouldn’t want to go back to that.

But what are you actually saying here.

You don’t want to, but you are happy for your children to be brought up like that.

And as the children in a single parent family, where do you think they are going to wind up, what are their prospects.

Because that sunshine is the consequence of the choices you and your wife are making.

Do the right thing, separate what you want from your responsibilities.

And then be a responsible adult.

[bkkmadness]

Come on Buriramboy, downright selfish? She didn't even have a chance to settle in before getting pregnant, try to put yourself in her shoes. If she wasn't pregnant and she done the same, yeah then maybe I would go with that BB, but it seems people are holding this girl to a decision she made when circumstances were different.

[GuestHouse]

Anybody who has actual experience with expat life (and I'm talking about moving staff and families to various locations as oposed to moving as an individual) will tell you that the end of the first 3 months is a critical period in terms of settling in.

It is at around this point that the holiday is over and the hard work of living somewhere starts.

Of course we have to accept that the hard work of living is a tad different if you are raising a child, to if your main concern for the day is getting a cold beer and a luke warm woman.

[buriramboy]

Come on Buriramboy, downright selfish? She didn't even have a chance to settle in before getting pregnant, try to put yourself in her shoes. If she wasn't pregnant and she done the same, yeah then maybe I would go with that BB, but it seems people are holding this girl to a decision she made when circumstances were different.

i think if i read correctly, she was unhappy from day 1 and made no effort to make new freinds and was starting arguements, so presumably this was before she even found out she was pregnant. i personaly think she made next to no effort to adjust, and had probably made her mind up about the place before the plane even landed.

BB

[sbk]

One doesn't need to know one is pregnant for it to have an emotional and physical effect.

[bkkmadness]

Come on Buriramboy, downright selfish? She didn't even have a chance to settle in before getting pregnant, try to put yourself in her shoes. If she wasn't pregnant and she done the same, yeah then maybe I would go with that BB, but it seems people are holding this girl to a decision she made when circumstances were different.

i think if i read correctly, she was unhappy from day 1 and made no effort to make new freinds and was starting arguements, so presumably this was before she even found out she was pregnant. i personaly think she made next to no effort to adjust, and had probably made her mind up about the place before the plane even landed.

BB

That's true BB I think you did read correctly. In fact I think we all read she was unhappy from day 1, a few posts before we knew she was 4 months pregnant. I guess it seemed more significant for Helicopter to mention this at the time. I understand he's an angry guy at the moment, I would be too, as would anybody but you gotta know there's a side to her story too so I think it's a bit harsh to call her downright selfish.

[lazeeboy]

I came here with my fiancee and my baby son (11 months) in December 2006. I was offered a fantastic opportunity to head up a contracting company in Pattaya. Which I am presently doing successfully. Since we arrived the company has provided us with a beautiful house, car and a salary that means we did not have to scrimp and save. My fiancee has been to Thailand several times on holiday, to visit her father who lives here with his Thai Wife. The position I hold, although challenging is a dream come true for me, I thoroughly enjoy it.

The reality of moving here struck home with my fiancee shortly after we arrived; she discovered that living here and holidaying here are two different worlds altogether. She simply did not settle, nor did she (In my opinion) make any real effort to integrate into the ex-pat community. This caused tension and resulted in arguments regularly. Pattaya has a seedy side but nevertheless it has enough to offer everyone, a large ex-pat community, social groups etc.

On a daily basis my fiancee complained about missing her family, friends etc and I suggested she get a part-time job in a local school, she did so (as a TA) and was due to start but, on the day she was meant to start, she declared she wanted to go home 'for a few weeks'.

Since going back we have spoken on the phone and she has stated that she does not want to come back. Since returning to the UK she is happier and back in her 'comfort zone', this leaves me torn apart as I am now away from my son, and she has said that I now have to decide what is more important; my career or my family, I feel like I am being emotionally blackmailed.

Before moving to Thailand we sat down and I looked her in the eye and said, 'are you sure you want to do this?', She assured me it was as she was not happy bringing our son up in the UK - it meant me leaving a good job and selling everything in my home so I could rent my house unfurnished.

There is more to this but for now this will do. Apologies for my crap descriptive; I will never make it as a writer.

whats to say you decide to go home no job no furniture and very depressed you will argue all the time with your girl blame her for everything if she really love you she"d stayed think long and hard i take it you get holidays take them in uk and see your son same thing happened to me in us 15 years ago went home didnt work came to thailand saw kids 2 times ayear phone calls etc now old enough to come on there own see them all the time great relation ship with them as for the wife lonely 46year old

[bkkmadness]

a cold beer and a luke warm woman

You know it's all gone wrong when the beer gets warmer and the women get colder.

It's true what GH says though, the accepting of Thailand as a place for living/working instead of holidaying is the first hurdle the new expat will fall at. It takes a little while to get through that sometimes, often more than three months.

[Mobi]

During our time here we spent ALL our time together, apart from two occasions; when I went out alone to meet up with other TVers for a unofficial recon pissup and another to watch the football at a local bar on that occasion she called up a mutual farang friend who sent her husband round to the bar to make sure I was actually there. This annoyed me as I felt she didn't trust me.

Therein lies part of the problem which would have only festered and grown as the months and years went by, and maybe she was smart enough to realise it sooner rather than later.

Helicopter, all my earlier advice was based on the fact that you had only one baby, but after giving it some thought, my original advice still stands.

Of course you must support her through this pregnancy in any way you are able, and try to remain good friends so that you can agree together on what the future should be for your mutual offspring.

But at the end of the day, a loveless or an unhappy marriage is no place to bring up kids. I stuck with it for 10 years initially for my first born, and then another 16 years for my second born. Both my daughters have now told me that I should never have stayed with my wife for their sake. It not only made me unhappy but also gave them a very miserable childhood and teenage years.

Every marriage is different, and every family situation is different, but I used to be a fervent believer of keeping the family togther at all costs for the sake of the kids, but now I know different.

As I said before, don't make any hasty decisions. Just take it easy, and continue the dialogue with your fiancée and see where that gets you.