Buddhist 10-day Seclusion In Chiang Mai For Farang: What Happens?

[Sam Drucker]

Hi,

I am in the process of moving to Thailand later this year. I have a Thai (Isaan) girlfriend that was a mess when I arrived earlier this month; I know there have been problems with family debt in the past, and who knows what else? Anyway, I saw a lot of characteristics of depression in her when I got here, and initially she was wanting to break up, but the unspoken vibe I was getting from her was "help me". She had definitely fallen in with the wrong crowd. I'm happy to say that slowly over the last month, step by step she has come around. I've gotten her away from the bad influences she was falling in with, and she is now in her village and reunited with her family and daughters and sounds happier. I'm about an hour away, and plan to visit her tomorrow.

One of the things she had been telling me was that over the last year she was never happy, at home with the family, away from home, with me, etc. She had very low self esteem when I got here, and was trying to convince herself that she was "no good", not the same person as the girl I met three years ago, etc. I think part of that thinking was it was easier to break up (or more correctly, have me break up with her) and convince herself further she is no good, than to feel guilt about her behavior if we were still together. I currently see her as someone that has had some major conflict she has not been able to deal with, and has been damaging herself as a result.

I have a lady friend that my girlfriend also knows and likes. This lady friend has been going to Chiang Mai for several years for Bhuddist (meditation?) sessions; most recently she has been going into "seclusion" for 10 days at a time. She has talked to my girlfriend about her going to Chiang Mai next week with her, and although I don't know much about this, it sounds like it could be a great opportunity for my girlfriend to find inner peace and overcome the conflict that has been tormenting her.

Does anybody have any thoughts/info on this, and what they do for 10 days?

Part II:

The lady friend has her farang boyfriend coming to Thailand later in April, and they plan to go together for one of these sessions. I want to support my girlfriend, and would be willing (especially in the context of two couples going together) to give it a try myself. What could I expect in one of these sessions, as a Christian farang? I'm open, and have admired the Bhuddist faith and values since first coming to Thailand 9 years ago, but am happy with my religion. What would we do for 10 days? Is it done in English? Where (and what) would we eat? Where would I sleep? Do I have to sit cross-legged all the time? (I have a farang gut, and that position is not comfortable for very long!) Is it air conditioned? At least for sleeping? Does this cost anything?

I know, these questions may sound silly, but I just want to know if I'm really up for this (if it happens). I'd rather know now, than to commit to something and have to bow out early.

[sutnyod]

Does anybody have any thoughts/info on this, and what they do for 10 days?

Well, it depends. People I know meditate, get Dhamma talks, take care of their kutis... Seems they are not in the least bored by this.

What would we do for 10 days? Is it done in English?

My guess would be not.

Where (and what) would we eat?

You eat at the pagoda and you eat alms.

Where would I sleep?

either you get a kuti or you sleep in a communal room, depending on the place

Do I have to sit cross-legged all the time? (I have a farang gut, and that position is not comfortable for very long!)

Thai monks sometimes have falang guts as well, but you are not forced to sit in a certain way. My teachers always told me I can take up any posture I find comfortable.

Is it air conditioned?

You will probaly be in a Wat Pa (forest pagoda), so probably not.

At least for sleeping?

It will be cool, don't worry. You won't need an aircon, you won't even miss it. Maybe you'll miss a mattress more ;-)

Does this cost anything?

not the places for the locals, no.

I wish you good luck and hope you will give it a try. Even if you end up not liking it; it's a once-a-lifetime experience. BTW, you might be requested to refrain from talking. So there will be no way to have a conversation with your GF while you are there.

[chownah]

I'm not at all sure that a 10 day seclusion retreat will be the best thing in your girlfriends situation....seems kind of intensive for a first time experience in meditation....I personally would not recommend that a beginner start with a 10 day retreat...but that's just my opinion and it clearly depends on the person. Has your girlfriend ever expressed interest in meditating?...I mean without being prompted....probably not if she's like the typical Thai woman. Most Thais don't meditate and consider it something that monks do and regular people don't.

Don't expect miracles from 10 days of anything.

The usual wisdom is that Buddhism is not a cure for depression...but then the usual wisdom can be wrong in some cases.

Chownah

[Brucenkhamen]

Intensive meditation is not a cure all and generally isn't recommended for someone who is suffering from physical or mental difficulties, better to get well and then take up meditation as a preventative measure for the future. That doesn't mean it won't work for your GF, just a word of caution.

If you can find out the name of the teacher, or the name of the Wat, or organisation we may be able to more accurately identify what it will be like.

There are lots of different approaches out there and they vary depending on whether they are aimed at farang or thai. For example one Wat i stayed at in Chiang mai, Wat Ram Poeng, for farang had a schedule of up to 12 hours meditation a day, wheras the thais did less than half that plus a bit of chanting.

[sutnyod]

....probably not if she's like the typical Thai woman. Most Thais don't meditate and consider it something that monks do and regular people don't.

Hi Chownah,

what a different experience you have from mine. Wow! Almost all Thai people I am aquainted with DO meditate on a daily basis. I also have to stay a lot overnight in villages and where I mostly sleep is the meditation room in the house. This experience is from Isaan, where is yours from?

greetings

[garro]

....probably not if she's like the typical Thai woman. Most Thais don't meditate and consider it something that monks do and regular people don't.

Hi Chownah,

what a different experience you have from mine. Wow! Almost all Thai people I am aquainted with DO meditate on a daily basis. I also have to stay a lot overnight in villages and where I mostly sleep is the meditation room in the house. This experience is from Isaan, where is yours from?

greetings

I agree with Chownah 100% on this. I don't know anyone else who meditates in my village. This includes the local monks. I have lived in different parts of Thailand over the year and I would say meditatiors are the exception rather than the rule.

Many famous forest monks from the Issan area would regulary comment on this. The locals are more interested in lottery numbers than Dhamma.

Edited March 28, 2007 by garro

[chownah]

....probably not if she's like the typical Thai woman. Most Thais don't meditate and consider it something that monks do and regular people don't.

Hi Chownah,

what a different experience you have from mine. Wow! Almost all Thai people I am aquainted with DO meditate on a daily basis. I also have to stay a lot overnight in villages and where I mostly sleep is the meditation room in the house. This experience is from Isaan, where is yours from?

greetings

From your first post it sounds like you do retreats....do you meet most of the people who have meditation rooms at retreats? I've never seen a meditation room in a private residence in Thailand...I'm not saying they don't exist just that my experience is that they are not common. I have a question....do these friends of yours that have meditation rooms drink alcohol?

Chownah

[sbk]

Intensive meditation is not a cure all and generally isn't recommended for someone who is suffering from physical or mental difficulties, better to get well and then take up meditation as a preventative measure for the future. That doesn't mean it won't work for your GF, just a word of caution.

From my experiences with a friend, I concur wholeheartedly with this piece of advice. Meditation retreats are not a cure all and usually, the retreatant finds their problems amplified in their own minds because, suddenly, they are forced to look at themselves without all the noise of the outside world intruding.

Better to get some kind of psychological help first.

[sutnyod]

From your first post it sounds like you do retreats....do you meet most of the people who have meditation rooms at retreats?

Sorry if it sounds this way. I do not (yet), so I cannot meet them at retreats. They are just friends I meet privately or in the course of my work. I admit to going to pagodas as a past-time to "recharge", but the people I refer to here were not met at pagodas at all.

I've never seen a meditation room in a private residence in Thailand...I'm not saying they don't exist just that my experience is that they are not common.

Unfortunately I have only one picture, because I thought they are common. This one is in a quite poor area in a poor house. It is not the "altar". The room is closed off (as are all other meditation rooms I have seen) and empty, except for some mats where the meditation is done. But even richer houses have meditation rooms, sometimes with glass walls, but it's always the same principle: create a space for meditating..

BTW: even my maid in Bkk meditates daily!

I have a question....do these friends of yours that have meditation rooms drink alcohol?

Chownah

No. Should they?

[chownah]

I have a question....do these friends of yours that have meditation rooms drink alcohol?

Chownah

No. Should they?

I asked this because I always consider that my experience might not be showing me what is common and that I might be seeing a small group of people who are not typical of the society at large....also that your experience might not represent the typical situation......so.....I asked if they drink alcohol because I know for sure that typically Thai people drink alcohol...the overwhelming majority of them do....everywhere in the country...all socio-economic levels. The fact that your friends don't drink is a very very strong indication that they are not typical of Thai people in general. This is important to me because previously I posted, "Most Thais don't meditate," and your post made me question the accuracy of my assertion...but now I understand that my assertion is probably correct so I will continue to hold this view.

Its great that you have found many friends with whom you can share the Path....

Chownah

Edited March 29, 2007 by chownah

[Brucenkhamen]

I asked this because I always consider that my experience might not be showing me what is common and that I might be seeing a small group of people who are not typical of the society at large....also that your experience might not represent the typical situation......so.....I asked if they drink alcohol because I know for sure that typically Thai people drink alcohol...the overwhelming majority of them do....everywhere in the country...all socio-economic levels.

While in theory I know your statement is correct I'd have to say the vast majority of the Thai people I know personally either don't drink alcohol, or drink in such a moderate way it's not really noticable.

These people are mostly middle class, mostly female, many I've met through the Wat, or are friends of my wife, or have met through yahoo or similar, or are expats in my country. I've never had any contact with the thai "nightlife".

I suppose like gravitates to like.

Though I do know the poorer males among my wifes relatives are definately heavy drinkers though.

[camerata]

Let's not hijack Sam's topic and go off into a discussion of whether Thais do or don't drink. I agree with SBK and Brucenkhamen that a retreat is not a good idea for someone who hasn't meditated before.

I know women who do retreats when they are depressed, but they are meditating on a regular basis. I also know that some guys will ordain for a short period after something bad happens to them. But the monkhood is not intensive meditation. In general it seems there are other activities such as the alms round and chanting to take one's mind off problems for a while.

Sam might be better off taking his GF to see a well-known monk to get some advice and a blessing.

[Sam Drucker]

<Update>

Hi All,

Thanks for the many and varied replies. I just got back to Khon Kaen after a few days in the village with the GF, and am just getting back to internet access. I welcomed all the responses, and don't feel the the thread was going off topic.

As for the GF, I'll update on that, and note a few observations that came to mind by the responses on this thread:

The GF seems to continue to be much happier. She has been spending quality time with her daughters, and that has done a world of good. As for being around the rest of the family, I'm not so sure. There is such an extended family that just seems to flow in and out of her parents' house (where she lives with the daughters). One of the things that I think has stressed her in the past is demands placed on her by the family, which we all know only get bigger when there is a farang boyfriend in the picture. And it doesn't stop there. Before she even went back home, in a phone call she was having with a 13 year old daughter, the subject came up of the daughter trying to read her savings account balance in her passbook, because an Aunt down the street that is building a new house needs 50,000 baht for it. Most of us would never think of raiding a child's or niece's bank account, but this is Thailand.

I see drinking in the village by many, and gambling is a problem, at least for her parents (that has been a huge stress on her in the past, as apparently some Thai's have no problem with mounting gambling losses that they expect their children to pay, while they go out and continue to gamble.) Overall, this is a place where there are too many people that have too much time on their hands, and get into trouble and/or create trouble for others as a result.

The GF did express interest in the Bhuddist session with our ladyfriend, and should certainly know more about it than I do. Thus, while I support her going to this, it is not something she is being pushed into. And truth is, depending on the format, I think the ladyfriend could share a lot of wisdom with the GF if they have chances to talk during some of this time in the session. Thing is, in what seems to be typical Thai fashion, the ladyfriend was non-committal on her exact plans of when she was going back, saying she'd call when she knew. I think she hasn't looked at a calendar to realize how soon Songkran is approaching. She was indicating another 10 day session before Songkran, but that window is fast closing, so I don't know if she might be able to shorten the 10-day period if she wished, or if that time span is fixed?

I did initially want to get the GF some psychological counseling, and would still go for that if she wanted, but she was completely against that when it came up.

Overall, she is doing quite well now it appears, but my guess is it would be temporary if I were to leave today, and things would soon decline again for her. She needs to deal with the root conflict. Luckily, I still have about 6 weeks in Thailand on this trip to try and help her.

Thanks for all your responses.