ทราย Thai Word For Sand - Why This Spelling?

[Pilchard]

I looked up the Thai word for Sand (sai) and found it to be spelt

Tor Taharn , Ror ruar, Sara arr , Yor yark (sorry no thai script on this computer)

Is a T sound plus R sound always pronounced as an S ?

Any more odd rules I should know while stumbling around on my early attemps to read Thai ?

Thanks

Pilchard

[CSS]

I looked up the Thai word for Sand (sai) and found it to be spelt

Tor Taharn , Ror ruar, Sara arr , Yor yark (sorry no thai script on this computer)

Is a T sound plus R sound always pronounced as an S ?

Any more odd rules I should know while stumbling around on my early attemps to read Thai ?

Thanks

Pilchard

Yes, a ทร combination takes on the characteristics of 'ซ'. The following are all the words I know of that follow that rule:

ทราบ ทราย ทรง ทรุด โทรม กระทรวง ต้นไทร แทรกแซง ทรวดทรง ไทรโยค อินทรี ทรัพย์สิน

A couple of the many others to look for are silent ร after ส ศ และ จ. And the double ร (รร) has a number of different rules that hopefully another poster can write out more clearly than I. The pronunciation depends on the root of the word (sanskrit or other). Sometimes it's a different way to write word such as ภริยา becoming ภรรยา but still pronounced like the first. Other times the รร combination simply becomes the vowel อะ.

Edited March 31, 2007 by CSS

[Pilchard]

Thank CSS, Much appreciated

[Richard W]

Yes, a ทร combination takes on the characteristics of 'ซ'. The following are all the words I know of that follow that rule:

ทราบ ทราย ทรง ทรุด โทรม กระทรวง ต้นไทร แทรกแซง ทรวดทรง ไทรโยค อินทรี ทรัพย์สิน

There area few exceptions in which initial ทร is pronounced [MS]thaw [H]ra and refers to something nasty:

ทรชน 'rascal'

ทรพิษ 'smallpox'

ทรยศ 'faithless'

ทรยุค 'reign of terror'

ทรราช 'tyrant'

ทรลักษณ์ 'deformed'

ทรพี 'treacherous' (also 'ladle')

ทรมาทรกรรม 'suffering'

ทรมาน 'torture (v.)' (It has the odd spelling with no nu rather than no nen because the ร is unetymological.)

ทรหด 'terrible' also 'hardy' in compounds

ทระนง, ทะนง 'proud, haughty'

Another exception is ทรรศนะ [H]that [L]sa [H]na 'point of view'.

It may be worth recalling that the usual Western lists of Thai initial combinations lack /thr/ - raising the question of what the natural pronunication of ทฤษฎี is. I have a Thai Thai-English dictionary that gives [H]thris [L]sa [M]dii! (Ratchabandit gives the expected [H]thrit...).

A couple of the many others to look for are silent ร after ส ศ และ จ.

จริง is the only word with silent ร after จ. Let's not make เจริญ [L]ja [ML]roen more confusing than it is.

And the double ร (รร) has a number of different rules that hopefully another poster can write out more clearly than I. The pronunciation depends on the root of the word (sanskrit or other). Sometimes it's a different way to write word such as ภริยา becoming ภรรยา but still pronounced like the first.

These two spellings have distinct pronunciations:

ภรรยา [M]phan ([H]ra) [M]yaa

ภริยา [H]pha [H]ri [M]yaa

Other times the รร combination simply becomes the vowel อะ

The three pronunications are อั /a/, อัน /an/ and, rarely, อันระ /an [H]ra/. The difference between them is clear in final syllables. Note that the pronunciation /a/ of รร never ends a syllable.

Firstly, monsyllables ending in รร are rare and the spelling is unetymological. In these words (e.g. สรร [R]san 'choose, select') the pronuciation is always /an/.

In final syllables ending in an unsilenced consonant, the pronuciation is /a/, e.g. ธรรม [M]tham 'dharma'. When these words are first element of compounds, then the final consonant (if only one) is pronounced twice, e.g. ธรรมชาติ [M]tham [H]ma [F]chaat 'nature'. Note that the tone depends on the final sounded consonant, e.g. พรรค [H]phak 'part, party'. This pronunciation reflects the Pali pronunciation, though the spelling is based on Sanskrit. Occasionally the Pali spelling is used (roughly), as in โทรทัศน์ [M]thoo [H]ra [H]that 'television', compared to ทรรศนะ [H]that [L]sa [H]na. (The use of so sala rather than so suea is a sanskritisation of Pali ทสฺสน.)

For final syllables ending in a silenced consonant, e.g. ครรภ์ [M]khan 'womb', the pronunciation is /an/. When these words are the first element of compounds, both the /n/ and the previously silenced letter are pronounced, e.g. นครสวรรค์ [H]na [M]khawn [L]sa [R]wan and สวรรคโลก [L]sa [R]wan [H]kha [F]look. These pronunciations reflect the Sanskrit pronunication, though the use of a double letter in the spelling to indicate that the vowel /a/ rather than /o/ derives from the rules for pronouncing words of Pali origin. Ironically, this doubling is now restricted to ร, though I have no evidence this was ever doubled in Pali!

Some words have doublets with the Pali and Saskrit pronunciation, e.g. พรรค [H]phak v. พรรค์ [M]phan. A similar pair is เกียรติ [F]kiat 'honour' v. the rare, synonymous form เกียรติ์ [M]kian. In this case the vowel is not /a/, so there is no doubling, but otherwise the principle is the same. This word seem to result from a mix of Pali, Sanskrit and Khmer speech habits.

Edited April 1, 2007 by Richard W

[jdinasia]

Scads of other exceptions and rules Often in Names and words pulled from other languages

รรรรร can be pronounced 2 ways (a name of a friend of mine) รรรรร

Edited April 1, 2007 by jdinasia

[Richard W]

Scads of other exceptions and rules Often in Names and words pulled from other languages

Yep. For native words without foreign influence, น้ำ, ใหญ่, ไหม [H]mai and แหน [RL]haen v. [RL]nae is about as complicated as it gets.

[Richard W]

Any more odd rules I should know while stumbling around on my early attemps to read Thai ?

There is a list of awkward consonants and combinations, but whether it is something to be learnt during early attempts is another matter.

One thing worth learning about is epenthetic vowels. Basically, Thai writing implies certain initial consonant clusters that Thais cannot pronounce. The English solution is to drop initial consonants, as in knight and pneumonia. The Thai solution is to insert a vowel, as in ตลาด. The spelling suggests the pronunciation [L]tlaat, but this is impossible. Thais pronounce it [L]ta [L]laat. (Actually the split-off initial syllable is normally pronounced with the middle tone, but in careful pronuciation it follows the rule for a dead syllable with a short vowel.) The first example I encountered was เขมร 'Cambodia(n)' [L]kha [R]meen.

There are two complications. Firstly, the spelling with a non-preposed vowel is indistinguishable from an implicit vowel, as in นคร [H]na [M]khawn. Secondly, if the second syllable after epenthesis is an oral stop consonant, the tone is determined by that consonant, as in เฉพาะ [L]cha [HS]phaw 'special, specific'.

The first complication also means that there are numerous exceptions that make it difficult to be sure which consonant determines the tone of the main syllable. Secondly, the Thai rule is also connected to a Khmer rule, 'consonant governance', which applies to a 'stress-group' (unstressed syllable(s) foillowed by stressed syllable) regardless of the vowel after the initial consonant. Fortunately, in Thai the rule only applies if the 'vowel' is implict /a/ or /am/ written ำ. The most important example with /am/ is ตำรวจ [M]tam [L]ruat. This word seems to be derived from ตรวจ [L]truat, but its regular derivative is ดำรวจ [M]dam [L]ruat. Words that aren't clearly derivative words mostly use ห to indicate the tone, e.g. สำหรับ [R]sam [L]rap.

As though that weren't bad enough, the tone may be determined by a double-acting consonant. Thus, we have พิษณุโลก [H]phit [L]sa [H]nu [F]look (tone determined by ณ), but กฤษณา [L]krit [L]sa [R]naa (tone determined by ษ not ณ).

Edited April 1, 2007 by Richard W