Pizzas R Us, You Call That Pizza?!

[calibanjr.]

kopite,

Unless you eat at ALL of the thousands of quality Italian restaurants in the world outside Italy, you are just voicing your national chauvinism, and nothing more. Good Italian food doesn't exist outside Italy? Its comical that anyone actually believes that.

When you go to San Francisco, try Delfina, for example, and then tell us what you think about it:

http://www.delfinasf.com/menu.html

Restaurants Worth Building a Trip Around by Cory Kummer

December 2001 Hide the article

“It’s the only new place that tastes right,” Carol Field, a novelist and writer of authoritative books on Italian food, told me on late-August morning at the Saturday San Francisco farmers’ market-foodie central in a food-crazed city. “Right” is a foodie code for “really good”, so I made sure to dine at Delfina twice on that trip. I saw why Field, a longtime friend thought it could be mentioned in the same breath as our Bay Area trinity of Chez Panisse, Oliveto and Zuni Café: Delfina has their simplicity, basic Italian vocabulary, and desire to show off what’s local and freshest. It also has the low prices that those restaurants had before they became landmarks.

Delfina now occupies two storefronts (it expanded last February) on a neat block in the Mission District that retains some 1960s Haight funk even as it undergoes the transformation that has revived the adjoining area known as South of Market. It’s next door to the Lady Baltimore Cake Co., an unreconstructed 1960s bakery whose high layer cakes might well have inspired the artist Wayne Thiebaud, and near the Bi-Rite Market, a combination general and grocery store whose second-generation owner has restored it to its streamlined 1940s splendor.

The décor of the restaurant is industrial modern on a budget, with wooden benches, brushed-steel tabletops, and light-yellow walls exhibiting changing displays of art. The hard surfaces and continual crowds make for loud dining, especially in the original half, which has a pleasant bar near the open kitchen: the second storefront, which doubled the seating capacity to seventy, has the audial if not visual blessing of industrial gray quilting along the top of one wall. The best place to sit is at the long counter in the new room, which offers views of the other diners and what they’re eating and also, by means of a tilted mirror under the quilt, a good view of kitchen activities.

Other friends warned me of long waits and indifferent service – the price of Delfina’s great popularity since it opened, three years ago. Before each of my dinners there I called in the afternoon and got a (late) reservation. I found the young, informal staff members, who sport the tattoos and body ornaments typical of the neighborhood, to be friendly, knowledgeable, and free of the arrogance that often typifies a hot-ticket place.

Delfina’s menu is short and printed daily, sparing everyone the recitation of specials. It changed substantially over the three August nights I was in San Francisco, demonstrating the chef’s close attention to what comes available each morning. But several dishes never go off the menu, and when I tasted them, I understood why. One is an appetizer of grilled fresh calamari with warm white-bean salad, a common enough dish but unusually good in this case – less for the fresh squid (I live in Boston, where it’s easy to come by) than for the white beans, seasoned with local sage and garlic. I liked the homemade lamb sausage with picked onions, too – especially for the tiny flageolet beans to the side, celadon-green Chiclets shapes with the delicate flavor of baby limas. Another standard is roast chicken (served with mashed Yukon gold potatoes and shiitake mushrooms), a contender, together with Zuni’s version, for the city’s best, and for similar reasons – good locally raised chicken, heavy use of herbs, and expert roasting. Then there’s the price: $12.00.

The menu fixture I would happily eat every night is a salad of bitter greens pancetta, walnuts, and Parmigiano-Reggiano cheese. The peppery greens are maroon-accented with shredded radicchio, the toasted walnuts are almost as meaty as the locally cured pancetta, and the balsamic vinaigrette is as creamy as an old-fashioned boiled dressing. I would also take a chance on any pasta dish, given the full, immediate flavor of the two I tried: soft fresh tagliarini tossed with summer squash and squash blossoms, and al dente spaghetti with plum tomatoes, garlic, and chili flakes.

The wines, most of them Californian or Italian, are reasonably priced, with a good selection by the glass. I considered it part of experiencing the local culture to try the Cold Heaven viognier, from the Edna Valley, which offers the full, fruity body people want in Chardonnay without the boring oak. A better match with most the menu, though, is the spicy Schuetz Oles zinfandel, from the Napa Valley. The desserts are plain and very tempting: a buttermilk panna cotta, for example, and a lattice-topped plum tart with deep-purple juices bubbling over dark strips of pastry.

Many chefs try dishes like these, but they don’t have the skill of Delfina’s chef, Craig Stoll, who worked for a time in Italy but trained mostly in Bay Area restaurants. One of the tricks he took from Italy is sautéing pasta for a minute or two with its sauce and final ingredients before sending it out (those mirrors give a very good view of thestoves). He naturally absorbed the Bay Area ethos of buying from local farms – an ethos that emanated from Chez Panisse and that I wish pervaded the entire country, not just a few enlightened pockets.

Delfina’s success has already been a local inspiration. Stoll and his partner and wife, Anne Stoll, opened their restaurant “on credit cards”, a talented young chef named Tasha Prysi told me during my stay, with a starry, I-can-do-it-too light in her eyes. I hope she does follow their example, soon – and in a less blessed city.

Delfina, 3621 Eighteenth Street, San Francisco, 415-552-4055. Dinner 5:30 – 10:00 Sunday through Thursday and until 11:00 Friday and Saturday. Reservations and Visa and MasterCard accepted.

THE ATLANTIC MONTHLY

Jingthing, you got a sub to the Atlantic? One of my faves, knew a few peeps who worked there when it was based in Boston, moved to D.C. now, no? Guess I'm too cheap to get a sub just to read the online. James Fallows and that Langewiesche guy are great investigative writers.

Well I've stayed out of this "pizza" discourse because you and U.G. seem to have more patience (he always does) than I do with anybody who thinks they "know" American food based on scant evidence and third-hand hearsay. I don't go around making those claims about other cultures, guess I'm just a bit more sensitive to people thinking I'm a fool. Unless I'm drinking, of course.

Anyway, I salute your persistent vigilance (pointless though it may be).

Edited August 24, 2007 by calibanjr.

[howtoescape]

On second road Pattaya in that new shopping and cinema complex there is a small Pizza restaurant called Pizza Corner, now these pizzas arent going to change your life but they are better then Pan Pan and one or 2 others suggested on here IMO, if your looking for a quick bite to eat.

Via Vai Soi 8 Sukhumvit BKK also has nice pizzas but they seem to get soggy when taking to long to eat, the lasagna there is fantastic.

Best pizza ive ever eaten are in Firezza Pizzeria, London www.firezza.com highly recommended on anyones next visit.

I agree with some of the Yanks on here British pub food on the whole is fcuken vulgar i paid 8 quid for microwaved chicken with heinz BBQ sauce on, microwaved peas, microwaved potatos etc..... at a beafeater restaurant i was drunk and starving so needed something, this pub chain 10 years ago was respectable.

[Manchester]

I miss America...............and I,m a Brit. Italy may have invented the pizza..............but America sure refined it!

And you are right about Brit food...............it SUCKS.

Let me loose in a NY deli any day.

[wilko]

If you think Brit food sucks you have never eaten at the right places - UK out does almost all countries for top rated restaurants.

The problem in UK is largely price - as overheads are so high there is a plethora of places selling cut price crap....if you insist on eating at these places to things will happen....you'll get sick and they'll stay in business. Beafeater is and always has been a joke....an effort to run a chain (why eat at chain restaurants anyway?) on US lines of profit over product.

in general I find US food pretty disgusting and cooked on a basis of quantity rather than quality.

but pizza only exists in Italy

[jonniebkk]

Totally agree...the worst pizza I have EVER had ANYWHERE

[Jareddiving]

The serve really good pizzas in the Mantra restaurant of the Amari hotel!!

But you have to put on some descent clothes and that could be a problem for some of you guys.

[JonnieB]

The serve really good pizzas in the Mantra restaurant of the Amari hotel!!

But you have to put on some descent clothes and that could be a problem for some of you guys.

Or be a pretentious Bangkok or Pattaya poseur

[soundman]

I miss America...............and I,m a Brit. Italy may have invented the pizza..............but America sure refined it!

And it was perfected in Melbourne Australia.

[elkangorito]

BTW, the Chinese invented pizzas...not the Italians. The Italians perfected pizzas.

I still don't understand why Thais love mayonaise on their pizzas...this is a vile concoction. Nor do I understand why so much sugar is put into most of their food. For example, I bought a packet of "Seasoned Anchovy, with Wasabi" at 7-11 the other day, thinking that it would be wonderful, hot & spicy. To my complete dismay, it was sickenly sweet, which totally contrasted with the spiciness of it. IT WAS VILE!!! As a matter of fact, it gave me severe indigestion for a few days (no smart arse comments).

I still prefer my "home made" spinnach & egg pizza...it has proven to be a total hit with my friends in Australia. I discovered this in Argentina. Sounds a bit "how's your father" but tastes great.

[torrenova]

Pizza Company. Order online at www.pizza.co.th and you don't get a screwed up order. Nice pizzas. Best non delivery is the italian on Soi 33 Naklua.

[wilko]

The serve really good pizzas in the Mantra restaurant of the Amari hotel!!

But you have to put on some descent clothes and that could be a problem for some of you guys.

To recognise a good pizza you also need taste buds that work.....

I can put on fancy clothes whenever I like ................

..........but once your taste buds have gone that's it!

[aguy30]

Who cares what the Brits think is good pizza, especially when you consider what the Brits like to eat in their own country.

They don't seem to know much about food. Maybe if they stopped buying the crappy pizza served in Pattaya, the restaurants would improve.

a web search gave the following:

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_kind_of_foods_do_the_British_people_eat

What kind of foods do the British people eat?

Answer

It really depends on what part of Britain you are from and how healthy you want to be! Traditionally a British person's dinner would consist of perhaps meat in a pie, potatoes and vegetables. Many still eat a traditional Sunday lunch consisting of roast beef, chicken, duck, pork etc. plus yorkshire puddings (not really a pudding but basically batter made from eggs milk and flour I believe) and vegetables.

England's national dish is considered to be fish and chips (fried fish placed on fried potato)

For a main meal a British person may eat Indian curry, a pasta dish, salads, Chinese food - vegetable stir fry is a simple favourite of many people I know.

For breakfast many people have toast or cereal with orange juice or coffee. Some may make fruit smoothies and some may have a full English breakfast consisting of fried eggs, bacon, baked beans, tomatoes and mushrooms and maybe even black pudding (made from sheep's blood!).

Britain is such a multicultural society that any type of food could be considered British these days!

As for desserts, there are many! Apple crumble, spotted dick, trifle, steamed pudding, Christmas cake/pudding, cheesecake, fruit salad, ice-cream...the list is never ending!

British food is very diverse these days!

Yorkshire pudding, black pudding and meat pies. Yuuuccckkkk I bet if you added a ground up dog turd to anyone of them, the typical Brit wouldn't even know. Bangers were left off the list. They are an interesting combo of scrap pig meat, lots of pig fat and put into pig guts. Now that sounds like a yummy and really nutritious breakfast. Can you say cholesterol? Well at least the desserts sound interesting.

Brits condemn American restaurants. Interestingly enough, a full English restaurant is probably the most difficult restaurant to find in America. Fish and chips are available for sure (leave out the vinegar), but forget the rest of their crap. You need to ask, "why does America have an internationally derived population of about 300 million and nobody wants to eat British crap". Just about every other country's food is easy to find.

Back to the topic: I agree that pizza in Italy is different than the US. The original Italian style was a good start. The US style pizza is a generation ahead in taste and quality. The crust, toppings and sauce are much better in the US. Congratulations, not condemnation should be given to US pizza makers. They made great improvements over a basic start by Italy.

[Jingthing]

Consumer tiptoid. If you are wondering about the quality of the pizzas from the Seafood Emporium (near Jomtien immigration) wonder no more. Not bad, but not worth it, you can do better. The crust is thin and crisp and tasteless in the cardboard school of Thai pizzas. The toppings are micro-sized; what I call the homeopathic school. Overall, bad value. Oh well.

So far the only decent pizza I have found in Jomtien is Pan Pan.

Edited January 5, 2008 by Jingthing

[mikethevigoman]

Who cares what the Brits think is good pizza, especially when you consider what the Brits like to eat in their own country.

They don't seem to know much about food. Maybe if they stopped buying the crappy pizza served in Pattaya, the restaurants would improve.

a web search gave the following:

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_kind_of_foods_do_the_British_people_eat

What kind of foods do the British people eat?

Answer

It really depends on what part of Britain you are from and how healthy you want to be! Traditionally a British person's dinner would consist of perhaps meat in a pie, potatoes and vegetables. Many still eat a traditional Sunday lunch consisting of roast beef, chicken, duck, pork etc. plus yorkshire puddings (not really a pudding but basically batter made from eggs milk and flour I believe) and vegetables.

England's national dish is considered to be fish and chips (fried fish placed on fried potato)

For a main meal a British person may eat Indian curry, a pasta dish, salads, Chinese food - vegetable stir fry is a simple favourite of many people I know.

For breakfast many people have toast or cereal with orange juice or coffee. Some may make fruit smoothies and some may have a full English breakfast consisting of fried eggs, bacon, baked beans, tomatoes and mushrooms and maybe even black pudding (made from sheep's blood!).

Britain is such a multicultural society that any type of food could be considered British these days!

As for desserts, there are many! Apple crumble, spotted dick, trifle, steamed pudding, Christmas cake/pudding, cheesecake, fruit salad, ice-cream...the list is never ending!

British food is very diverse these days!

Yorkshire pudding, black pudding and meat pies. Yuuuccckkkk I bet if you added a ground up dog turd to anyone of them, the typical Brit wouldn't even know. Bangers were left off the list. They are an interesting combo of scrap pig meat, lots of pig fat and put into pig guts. Now that sounds like a yummy and really nutritious breakfast. Can you say cholesterol? Well at least the desserts sound interesting.

Brits condemn American restaurants. Interestingly enough, a full English restaurant is probably the most difficult restaurant to find in America. Fish and chips are available for sure (leave out the vinegar), but forget the rest of their crap. You need to ask, "why does America have an internationally derived population of about 300 million and nobody wants to eat British crap". Just about every other country's food is easy to find.

Back to the topic: I agree that pizza in Italy is different than the US. The original Italian style was a good start. The US style pizza is a generation ahead in taste and quality. The crust, toppings and sauce are much better in the US. Congratulations, not condemnation should be given to US pizza makers. They made great improvements over a basic start by Italy.

i escaped from the uk to get away from english food ,. if i see a restuarant saying " food like mama used to make ' igive it a wide berth,,!.our choices as kids were usually beans or spaggethi..we all know that the americans do give large portions and in all fairness i like the food there,. but back on topic ,to me pizza is a layer of dough with food on top, which deviation /thickness/topping you prefer is your choice, i see this as a no win argument, but i really dont like the thin stuff thats usually overpriced at the likes of italian restuarants, more like pizza hut and pizza company are my favourite,.

[mikethevigoman]

The best in the world - a rather subjective perspective - there has to be some subjectivity in this....but as the comments above illustrate -the American taste in food is largely based on prejudice and the repetitive consumption of familiar foods

Plain gruel is called consommé in some circles, bowel is eaten here in Thailand with relish and used by real sausage-makers for the skin thereof, when it comes to kidneys - why is it that so many people reduce the organs they will eat of a dead animal to only one - the muscles? Good calves’ liver is more expensive than the finest steak (imported or otherwise) in Italy (BTW - ever eaten Aberdeen Angus - not the chain the real McCoy). sawdust - if you mean cereals - they have been an important ingredient as in a binder of foods for centuries and do away with the need for a lot of chemical additives.

I am NOT a fan of beef or steak myself - the world is full of much more interesting foods - but as I pointed out earlier this idea that if beef is "tender" it must be good is a load of that wonderful offal product – baloney. I’m not suggesting it should be tough but that there are also many, many other criteria by which I would judge a lump of dead bullock….(castrated bull – related to the above post?) - Most US beef is fed on grain as Sweet grass is unavailable due to the climate – so they make a big thing out of “corn-fed” and put a yellow dye in to make the fat look better.

To tenderise meat you can treat it with chemicals or hang it – US meat has a reputation for chemicals and hormones it is also hung longer than allowed in the EU.– if the market is educated to eat this ultra- processed product and knows no better that’s what they eat – unfortunately it is seldom like real meat.

So this is a glorious example of what the American food industry has reduced it’s customers to………

…..

“They couldn't find any plain gruel, bowel and kidney pies or sawdust and chicken dropping sausages and they didn't recognize beef that didn't have to be cut with a chainsaw, so they didn't know what to eat.”……..

In the end the industrialisation of US food and the expectancies of an unsophisticated, hungry (greedy?) over-weight public has given rise to a nation that wouldn’t know a decent pizza if you smacked ‘em in the face with it

–

Well i have driven all over N America and all over the uk ,the food on the road is far better in the US, in England on the motorways you have the motorway services, you will need a platinum american express to pay, and on the A and B roads you have the little thief chain with a burglar king usually in the corner, and thats it,.i have jst taken away any slight homesickness i may have had !

[timekeeper]

i had a wonderful meal last night at the Italian Arcarte on Thappraya Hill. (even got parked ok!) the pizza was delicious, created in a clay oven and done just right. recommended to all

[wilko]

The best in the world - a rather subjective perspective - there has to be some subjectivity in this....but as the comments above illustrate -the American taste in food is largely based on prejudice and the repetitive consumption of familiar foods

Plain gruel is called consommé in some circles, bowel is eaten here in Thailand with relish and used by real sausage-makers for the skin thereof, when it comes to kidneys - why is it that so many people reduce the organs they will eat of a dead animal to only one - the muscles? Good calves’ liver is more expensive than the finest steak (imported or otherwise) in Italy (BTW - ever eaten Aberdeen Angus - not the chain the real McCoy). sawdust - if you mean cereals - they have been an important ingredient as in a binder of foods for centuries and do away with the need for a lot of chemical additives.

I am NOT a fan of beef or steak myself - the world is full of much more interesting foods - but as I pointed out earlier this idea that if beef is "tender" it must be good is a load of that wonderful offal product – baloney. I’m not suggesting it should be tough but that there are also many, many other criteria by which I would judge a lump of dead bullock….(castrated bull – related to the above post?) - Most US beef is fed on grain as Sweet grass is unavailable due to the climate – so they make a big thing out of “corn-fed” and put a yellow dye in to make the fat look better.

To tenderise meat you can treat it with chemicals or hang it – US meat has a reputation for chemicals and hormones it is also hung longer than allowed in the EU.– if the market is educated to eat this ultra- processed product and knows no better that’s what they eat – unfortunately it is seldom like real meat.

So this is a glorious example of what the American food industry has reduced it’s customers to………

…..

“They couldn't find any plain gruel, bowel and kidney pies or sawdust and chicken dropping sausages and they didn't recognize beef that didn't have to be cut with a chainsaw, so they didn't know what to eat.”……..

In the end the industrialisation of US food and the expectancies of an unsophisticated, hungry (greedy?) over-weight public has given rise to a nation that wouldn’t know a decent pizza if you smacked ‘em in the face with it

–

Well i have driven all over N America and all over the uk ,the food on the road is far better in the US, in England on the motorways you have the motorway services, you will need a platinum american express to pay, and on the A and B roads you have the little thief chain with a burglar king usually in the corner, and thats it,.i have jst taken away any slight homesickness i may have had !

i have eaten all over the world and that includes the Uk....if this is what you were able to discover in the UK it really doesn't say much about your knowledge of UK food.

[wilko]

Who cares what the Brits think is good pizza, especially when you consider what the Brits like to eat in their own country.

They don't seem to know much about food. Maybe if they stopped buying the crappy pizza served in Pattaya, the restaurants would improve.

a web search gave the following:

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_kind_of_foods_do_the_British_people_eat

What kind of foods do the British people eat?

Answer

It really depends on what part of Britain you are from and how healthy you want to be! Traditionally a British person's dinner would consist of perhaps meat in a pie, potatoes and vegetables. Many still eat a traditional Sunday lunch consisting of roast beef, chicken, duck, pork etc. plus yorkshire puddings (not really a pudding but basically batter made from eggs milk and flour I believe) and vegetables.

England's national dish is considered to be fish and chips (fried fish placed on fried potato)

For a main meal a British person may eat Indian curry, a pasta dish, salads, Chinese food - vegetable stir fry is a simple favourite of many people I know.

For breakfast many people have toast or cereal with orange juice or coffee. Some may make fruit smoothies and some may have a full English breakfast consisting of fried eggs, bacon, baked beans, tomatoes and mushrooms and maybe even black pudding (made from sheep's blood!).

Britain is such a multicultural society that any type of food could be considered British these days!

As for desserts, there are many! Apple crumble, spotted dick, trifle, steamed pudding, Christmas cake/pudding, cheesecake, fruit salad, ice-cream...the list is never ending!

British food is very diverse these days!

Yorkshire pudding, black pudding and meat pies. Yuuuccckkkk I bet if you added a ground up dog turd to anyone of them, the typical Brit wouldn't even know. Bangers were left off the list. They are an interesting combo of scrap pig meat, lots of pig fat and put into pig guts. Now that sounds like a yummy and really nutritious breakfast. Can you say cholesterol? Well at least the desserts sound interesting.

Brits condemn American restaurants. Interestingly enough, a full English restaurant is probably the most difficult restaurant to find in America. Fish and chips are available for sure (leave out the vinegar), but forget the rest of their crap. You need to ask, "why does America have an internationally derived population of about 300 million and nobody wants to eat British crap". Just about every other country's food is easy to find.

Back to the topic: I agree that pizza in Italy is different than the US. The original Italian style was a good start. The US style pizza is a generation ahead in taste and quality. The crust, toppings and sauce are much better in the US. Congratulations, not condemnation should be given to US pizza makers. They made great improvements over a basic start by Italy.

i escaped from the uk to get away from english food ,. if i see a restuarant saying " food like mama used to make ' igive it a wide berth,,!.our choices as kids were usually beans or spaggethi..we all know that the americans do give large portions and in all fairness i like the food there,. but back on topic ,to me pizza is a layer of dough with food on top, which deviation /thickness/topping you prefer is your choice, i see this as a no win argument, but i really dont like the thin stuff thats usually overpriced at the likes of italian restuarants, more like pizza hut and pizza company are my favourite,.

If I saw "Mama" written outside a restaurant I would assume it was Italian style or selling instant noodles.

I'm sorry if your Mother" was a terrible cook but mine was Cordon Bleu trained and the food I had as a kid (some of it in the UK) was not only delicious but nutritious and if I saw a sign saying just like "mother" used to cook i would investigate but think it unlikely.

PS - those who don't eat offal are missing out!.......those who speak it are not worth listening to

Edited January 6, 2008 by wilko

[weary]

Those unable to disagree without being insulting ought to be smacked, relatively hard, on the bum.

[calibanjr.]

Those unable to disagree without being insulting ought to be smacked, relatively hard, on the bum.

That's a threat just like "mother" used to make! And she backed it up! (So to speak)

[Jingthing]

To the close minded people who think you can't get world class pizza in the US, check out this video:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/sfgate...26&cat=1398

And yes I have eaten there. It is probably the best pizza I have ever had, including in New York, Chicago, Italy, and Argentina. I really don't think world class pizzas are available in Thailand though, but there are some pretty good ones.

[tropo]

To the close minded people who think you can't get world class pizza in the US, check out this video:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/sfgate...26&cat=1398

And yes I have eaten there. It is probably the best pizza I have ever had, including in New York, Chicago, Italy, and Argentina. I really don't think world class pizzas are available in Thailand though, but there are some pretty good ones.

They look great, but "the proof of the pudding is in the eating", so unless they can deliver, we'll have to take your word for it.

[kdvsn]

To the close minded people who think you can't get world class pizza in the US, check out this video:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/sfgate...26&cat=1398

And yes I have eaten there. It is probably the best pizza I have ever had, including in New York, Chicago, Italy, and Argentina. I really don't think world class pizzas are available in Thailand though, but there are some pretty good ones.

The one that I think is really in a league of it's own Pepe's in New Haven, CT:

http://www.pepespizzeria.com/buzz.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Pepe_Pizzeria_Napoletana

The place got it's start long before the word "pizza" was part of the American vocabulary -- to this day Pepe's menu calls the food "tomato pies" rather than pizza. Generally there is a long line out on the street of people waiting for a table in Pepe's no matter on what day of the week that you go there.