Us Able To Prosecute American Sex Crimes

[george]

U.S. Able to Prosecute Americans Who Commit Sex Crimes Overseas

A warning to Americans against committing sexual offenses abroad.

WASHINGTON, June 7 — One suspect was a convicted pedophile from Baltimore accused of molesting boys in two Asian countries. Another was a doctor from Georgia who the Russian police said drugged his young victims in a St. Petersburg hotel. A third was a retired Army sergeant from Seattle who may have molested up to 50 children.

The three men would once have almost certainly fallen outside the grasp of United States prosecutors. But with the long arm of American law growing ever longer, all three could face significant prison sentences in the United States because of a measure passed by Congress last year that gives federal officials much more power to prosecute people suspected of molesting children on foreign soil. Officials have already used their expanded authority to prosecute five American men, four of whom are awaiting trial. Dozens more investigations are under way from Sri Lanka to Costa Rica.

American officials are hoping their investigations will help break what they believe are shadowy Internet networks used by pedophiles to share photographs of children and travel tips about countries with thriving child sex industries.

But so far, prosecutions under the new law have focused on people who traveled on their own.

The initiative dovetails with two priorities for the Bush administration: adopting a more aggressive agenda abroad to protect American interests at home and attacking what President Bush has called the "special evil" of child trafficking and exploitation. In the process, federal officials have forged an alliance with humanitarian groups in exposing havens for so-called sex tourists.

"We're no longer having to fight alone on this," said Joseph Mettimano, child protection policy adviser for a Christian-based group called World Vision. "We have a very active and very engaged government power working with us now."

But that new power is also prompting debate in federal courts and in public policy circles over how far the United States can and should go to combat child exploitation abroad.

Some critics of the initiative, including defense lawyers and law professors, question why, at a time of pressing counterterrorism needs at home, investigators from the Department of Homeland Security are using scarce resources to go after molesters abroad. Others accuse the Bush administration and Congress of overreaching by seeking to create what amounts to a global police presence. "What we're seeing is the ever-expanding authority of the federal government in the criminal justice arena," said Mike Filipovic, a public defender in Seattle who represents Michael L. Clark, the former sergeant picked up in Cambodia.

"Stopping child abuse is a laudable goal, but it's really somewhat patronizing to these other countries to say that we feel that the only way to solve this problem is for us to do it for you," Mr. Filipovic said. "The issue here is should our government be able to prosecute our citizens for acts committed anywhere in the world?"

Some child-advocacy groups estimate that as many as 25 percent of all sex tourists abroad come from the United States. Although the data is inexact, Americans who have sex with children abroad are thought to number in the thousands, with hard-core pedophiles, casual tourists and business people taking advantage of lax enforcement, child advocacy groups and American officials say.

Indeed, some countries in Southeast Asia and Latin America are now seen as havens for molesters, turning a blind eye or even tacitly welcoming such tourists to promote their economies, experts say. Against that backdrop, agents for the Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement, within the Department of Homeland Security, have mounted an aggressive effort with their new power. Investigations number in the dozens, officials said, with targets in Cambodia, the Philippines, Thailand, Sri Lanka, India, Russia, Mexico, Costa Rica and elsewhere.

American agents are careful to open investigations only with the cooperation of host countries, said Michael J. Garcia, who oversees immigration and customs enforcement. In Cambodia, for instance, the police have in several cases charged Americans under local ordinances, then held them for extradition in close coordination with American officials.

And in the Washington suburbs, several analysts at the immigration agency's cybercrimes unit now peruse the Internet and follow tips about sex tourism networks abroad.

--The New York Times 2004-06-08

[stroll]

The U.S are finally follwing the stance of several European countries to make their citizens accountable for crimes committed abroad. This will put a damper on advocates of underage sex in Thailand, and hopefully get them into well deserved trouble.

But in tthe context of the present administration I suspect there are disputable hidden agendas at work, such as increasing American influence even more.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Add Australia, New Zealand and the United Kingdom to the list.

[britmaveric]

About bloody well time- anyone traveling abroad for that sort of thing deserves what they get! Course wont stop the look the other way by bribery, but its a good start!

[astral]

Which law takes precedence?

American or foreign?

I can have sex with a 16 year old girl in Thailand, quite legally,

but in the US it would be illegal.

Will I be prosecuted under US law?

Just wondering!!

[britmaveric]

Astral- technically could be prosecuted, however they are looking for pedophile types. (real deviants)

[Padkapow Guy]

Which law takes precedence?

American or foreign?

I can have sex with a 16 year old girl in Thailand, quite legally,

but in the US it would be illegal.

Will I be prosecuted under US law?

Just wondering!!

Make sure you get a note from her parents.

[SoCal]

Astral,

Kansas and New Hampshire -12yrs old with parental consent

Massachusetts- 13yrs old with parental consent

So much for my theory-

Alabama- 14yrs old with parental consent

So, you can marry a Harvard professor's daughter at 12, but have to wait 2 more years for Bubba's.

Every state has it's own laws. As long as you conform to local law, sure it is not a problem with the Feds.

SoCal

[astral]

Astral- technically could be prosecuted, however they are looking for pedophile types. (real deviants)

And sex with 12 year old girls in Kansas and New Hampsihre is not?

You Americans have a strange set of moral values.

[RamdomChances]

Can't really get my head around this, If you we've an american here having sex with a 12 year old , would it be ok if you came from Kansas or New Hampshire, but if you came from Alabama,could you be prosecuted?

If you we're having sex with a 12 yr old in Kansas could you be prosecuted in Alabama?

What about Holland where the taking of most drugs is legal ?

I was just looking at the Brithish Embassy Consular section web page, it states in the do"s and don'ts

" 5. DON'T HAVE SEXUAL RELATIONS WITH ANYONE

NOT OVER THE AGE OF 15 YEARS.

Thailand recognises such acts as rape." http://www.britishembassy.gov.uk/servlet/F...d=1068717509272.

If you followed this advice and had sex with someone who was 15 you would be liable to prosecution back in Britian.

Now i'm not advicating having sex with children or taking drugs, butmost countries have their own laws on this, why not get them prosecuted there?

Where do you draw the line, speed limits are different in all countries, ages for drinking ect ok its picky but just trying to get my point across, if you are in a different country should 'nt you follow the laws there?

Ps I'm not a drug taking peodifile and am nice to puppys, kittens and old people

[astral]

if you are in a different country should 'nt you follow the laws there?

Exactly!!

These laws in the US and Europe that seek to impose their own moral values and laws in other countries are totally unacceptable.

They are a sign of Imperialism at its very worst

and should have been outlawed a century ago!!

[astral]

Kansas and New Hampshire -12yrs old with parental consent

Massachusetts- 13yrs old with parental consent

Alabama- 14yrs old with parental consent

So, you can marry a Harvard professor's daughter at 12, but have to wait 2 more years for Bubba's.

An American colleague advises that these are very "old laws" and should not be relied upon today!!!

[SoCal]

Astral,

Maybe I diverged a little from topic, although not entirely. That's the ages for marriage. I guess what follows is up to the participants. Believe it was clear that I was talking marriage, and it is only with parent's consent.

My point is merely that the government will follow local law in prosecution of Americans, not some sort of federal law against sex with minors, which I'm not even sure exists.

Sorry, but your colleague is likely embarassed, thus the denial. A laws validation has nothing to do with it's age. If it is on the books, then it is the law. Surely you get this. That said, such action is contrary to the majority of social mores.

In no way do I advocate such practice, just answering your question.

That said, I don't support the ability of foreign governments (US, UK, etc) to prosecute their citizens for actions they take abroad that do not affect the interests of the government. Believe me, I am adamantly against people taking advantage of children, but I do not support the long arm of the law. Take for instance I smoke some reefer in Amsterdam.

SoCal

[DaveYo]

Well I for one basically object to the United States long arm of the Law. Many of you ought to be ashamed in promoting such coming from any country period.

When a foreigner goes to another country at that point the jurisdiction of the foreigners own country ends. Now your in a foreign country, you are subject to the laws of that country period.

If such foreigner commits a crime in the country they are in, then it is that country's responsibility to enforce and prosecute their own laws. Not USA stepping into the picture. For example, say the person gets convicted in the foreign country serves his time there, then returns to USA, what USA is saying we will also prosecute you and you will also have to do the time here too.

To me that is a load of crap and also a double whammy having two convictions for the same crime and offense and serving time twice for the same crime and offense. Understand.

So the only way to avoid having to do the sentence twice or getting convicted twice for the same crime and offense is to denounce your original country and kiss your citizenship adios. Once that is done then your original country cannot prosecute you or seek an arrest warrant since you no longer are a citizen of that country.

Even if you get arrested and that country says OK we will approve the extradiction of such person back to that country for prosecution, still does not sit well with me. If such country accuses , then prosecute under their laws, and if not drop the charges and declare the person innocent. Bottom line what this means -------- Put up or let me go.

The way the United States is going of today, I would rather shoot those turkeys than listen to their BS crap about the long arm of the law.

Daveyo

[pnustedt]

Wot do you reckon Dave ?-

Mr Big comes from US to Thailand, although more likely Cambo, and has sex with a 12-yr-old. Posts his exploits on the internet and makes a profit in the process, by the time anyone notices he's back in the US. That's OK with you? Nobody should be able to touch him?

I don't think so!

[Payne]

The British Consulate's advice about not have sex with anyone aged under 15 is a bit misleading. What they should do is also advise their citizens that its against Thai law to PAY for sex with anyone under the age of 18. Futhermore, they they should point out that all adult Thais are obliged to carry ID cards which contain their correct age.

My impression is that due to strong enforcement measures, pedophiles have larely moved on from Thailand to other countries in the region; but giving heaps of publicity in the press to the apprehension of these criminals is always useful.

[DaveYo]

Pnustedt------ If this Mr. Big did the crimes in Thailand, and has returned to US untouched, Mr. Big can still be prosecuted in Thailand, not in US. Thailand has to issue the warrant for his arrest, and ask the US authorities to pick up his duds, and shackle him and send his touchie back over here. The US authorities have no authority to prosecute on US soil since he did not do the crime in USA. He did the crime in Thailand.

Thailand and US have treaties agreed to such effect per se, to turn over suspects wanted from either country. The only possible way he cannot go to Thailand is if USA says no he is our citizen and under our protection like one country being France did to the USA since that person held dual citizenships. I forgot that guys name again. Dear me.

Anway yes he should be tried here in Thailand but not in the US. The US should have no jurisdiction to try the case since the crime was not done in USA territory.

My previous thread explained being tried and convicted twice for the same crime and offense. Once in Thailand, and again in the US, even tho this person did not do a crime in the US but in Thailand. Understand?????????? That is what I am talking about the long arm of the law, being stretched beyond jurisdictions and authority.

Try to understand what I said in the previous post.

Daveyo

[astral]

I see from the Sunday 27th Bangkok Post that a man has been convicted under this law.

It caused me too look up the word convicted - 'proved or found guilty by a magistrate or jury'.

Not quite true in this case as the man plead guilty.

However given the rules of justice in the USA,

the right to face one's accuser etc

I am not sure I can see anyone ever being convicted.

What would be the cost of flying kids to the US?

How reliable would their testimony be?

They would say anything for $50, probably $5 would be enough,

so the excitement of a trip to the US could produce any testimony the

prosecution wanted. A good defense lawyer would have a field day with that.

The UK has a law whereby "victims" can claim compensation.

There have already cases where claims of abuse in Care Homes have been made and later investigation has shown that the either the "victim" or the accused where not even present in the Home at the time. It is amazing what testimony the thought of money can produce.

The same may be true in the current Michael Jackson case. If he paid out $20 million last time, that sure is an incentive for other families to make up whatever stories they like!!

All very dubious!!

Edited June 27, 2004 by astral

[nmesparrow]

Astral- technically could be prosecuted, however they are looking for pedophile types. (real deviants)

And sex with 12 year old girls in Kansas and New Hampsihre is not?

You Americans have a strange set of moral values.

nobody here in the states is doing this legally. you'd be going to jail and ending up murdered on the inside. any child murderers or rapist will be when in a state pen. one of those unspoken rules. you'd be lucky to be holding pockets. if those are laws they're not in practice. here in san francisco if you have less than $5 on you and are downtown you can be arrested for loitering.

[kat]

Also, I'm not sure how even how these alleged laws are enforced when you can be arrested for statutory rape for sex with a minor under 18. I guess there aren't too many parents around giving out that kind of consent, unless you are a Mormon with 27-odd kids.

[DaveYo]

That is a new one. Having only 5 bucks in your pocket and be getting arrested for loitering. That is a load of crap. Many people walk down the street with only a dollar, so how is the copper going to know unless you catch his attention waving the almighty one dollar in his face.

This is America---------> Money, Money, Money Money, Moneeeeeeeeey, That alllllllllllllllllllmighty Dollllllllllaaaaaaaaarrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Pretty soon that dollar won't be so almighty. Why????? Euro is taking over slowly but surely. Which means the value of the US buckeroo will be like the Thai baht eventually.

Just a few tidbits thrown in

Daveyo

[sriracha john]

The latest application of this law:

LOS ANGELES (AFP) - An 87-year-old American sex tourist who was arrested as he set off to have sex with two pre-teen girls in the Philippines was sentenced to 20 years in jail.

Wheelchair-bound widower and grandfather John Seljan had faced up to 180 years in prison for the six counts on which he was convicted in November, prosecutors said earlier.

But US federal Judge Alicemarie Stotler said she had to take into account the reality that the minimum sentence she could impose -- 15 to 20 years -- would put Seljan behind bars for the rest of his life.

"When you're 87 years old, it is tantamount to a life sentence," Stotler told the court in Santa Ana, in California's Orange County.

Seljan, a former country singer, was the first person to be convicted at trial of violating the 2003 PROTECT Act that punishes US sex tourists irrespective of where the crime occurred.

He was arrested at Los Angeles International Airport in October 2003 as he prepared to board a flight to the Philippines, where prosecutors said he was planning to have sex with two girls aged nine and 12.

The suspect was armed with 45 kilograms (100 pounds) of chocolates, sex aids, pornographic pictures and sexually explicit letters written to the two young girls.

Many of the pictures show the old man with small girls who were often naked. Seljan is sometimes naked or has his underwear pulled down, while his letters to the girls are rife with references to their "love-making."

Seljan, who urged young girls to call him "Uncle Johnny," told FBI agents who arrested him that he had been "educating" young Filipinas for 20 years but did not know that his actions were illegal, his trial court had heard.

But the judge was sceptical: "To everyone else it is just so very difficult, if not downright hideous, to understand what Mr Seljan did, (and) to understand that he could really think that this was not wrong," she said.

Prosecutors say Seljan, who authorities began investigating in November 2002 after intercepting one of his letters, also had maps to the girls' homes in his luggage.

The conviction and 20-year sentence highlights a US crackdown on its citizens travelling abroad for sex tourism.

"The PROTECT Act criminalized conduct by Americans who travel abroad to molest children in foreign countries," said Assistant US Attorney Richard Lee said after the sentencing.

Seljan "is one example of an individual trying to do just that and I think his 20-year sentence reflects the seriousness of how Congress views the problem and what they're trying to do about it," he said.

[Ijustwannateach]

I've stated this on multiple threads: the flimsy legal fiction the U.S. uses to process these arrests is its power to regulate interstate commerce. As long as they can prove the intent to break a U.S. law by travelling overseas, in other words, they can prosecute them (as far as I understand it). I guess there is some sort of "conspiracy" charge involved, too, since no actual crime has occurred in this kind of arrest [for example, when they're picked up at the airport before actually making the trip].

In other words, if you are living and working in another country, you are subject to its laws and not those of the U.S. (yet). While I don't deny the value of such a law applied to this particular situation, I am very suspicious of the political maneuvering involved. It would have been better to pass an uncontroversial law specifically targetting child sex tourists than to create this imaginary blanket set of powers that can be applied by the powerful on a whim. I think it's another case where a conservative cause is being used to piggyback further outrageous imperialism and breakdown of U.S. citizen's rights ("to protect the children!") For example, another recent law attempts (probably illegally, but who knows yet?) to make consumption of any Cuban product illegal for all Americans world-wide. We're the only country that requires its own citizens to file and pay taxes every year even if we reside and work abroad the entire time.

However, to the not-so-bright sector of the American population who think that abortion is the kind of thing politics should be about, this is "true justice."

Sigh. We get the kind of government we deserve.

"Steven"

Edited March 29, 2005 by Ijustwannateach

[DaveYo]

Well I agree with the assessment of this situation as being the over extending of arrest powers being applied in this case. What is even worse is this person is on a wheel chair, and even more stupid is his age being 87 years old.

Now this is absolutely gone way too far. The Judge in this case is way out of line and so were the prosecutors. Also it indicates here that the authorities intercepted one of his mails. Now how was that possible since the correspondences are supposed to be considered private. So this is telling me the government is already snooping and raiding our correspondences without search warrants or justifiable cause.

This is really a scary thought that anyone can be pegged to be prosecuted on mere suspicion of some crazy activity overseas especially being at an airport looking for viola of sorts and some bastard lowers the boom and says time for hotel hilton charlie cause you have interests of not of the puritan kind.

Get my drift here. So they decide to look into your bag and you got some goodies inside such as sex toys of all sorts, and even maps of where the hot spots are at in the red light district, and pics of naughty girls getting your dander up and you decided to have a taste of its special delights so its vacation time etc. What a bummer to have some BOZO come up to you armed with some stupid arrest warrant similar as this case ruining your fun and plans and now costing you thousands of dollars in lawyer and legal fees etc besides your reputation being ruined for good.

The only way to defend against this action of all sorts is do things very quietly and not so out in the open and use different terms and means to decoy authorities into another area to keep them off your back.

Hmmmmmmm, as you know that the police have radar guns to check your speed, so now the public has radar detectors to hopefully get the head start to avoid tickets.

Well, soon someone is going to come up with a means and ways to thwart the authorities of tracing and tracking down the origins of your messages and where such is being sent. Similar to like an interceptor blocking their access or attempts to breach your own security perimeters.

This has to be so good that this defense cannot be cracked by the authorities in any way shape or form. If someone can come up with this kind of system, you can bet that person will be an instant multi trillionaire overnight.

Until then we all are vulnerable to snips and searches without us knowing it and that our privacy can be invaded any time day or night.

Just my thoughts here man.

Daveyo

[mouse]

This has to be so good that this defense cannot be cracked by the authorities in any way shape or form. If someone can come up with this kind of system, you can bet that person will be an instant multi trillionaire overnight.

Here it is http://www.liquidmachines.com/products/features_email.php It exists but has alredy been sold over three times since it inception.

[DaveYo]

Hey Mouse;

I checked that site out. It's security is a bit better than what most have now, but it is crackable and the authorities do have a computer that cracks most encrypted codes. From what I can remember there is one or two security methods that cannot be cracked by authorities or from some hacker, and I cannot remember what those were. I will have to contact a friend of mine to get that name since he is a computer programmer and a expert on how the internet works and how authorities can intercept your messages without warning and crack the messages wide open.

If I get ahold of him, I will ask him again. I do know you have to pay for these two security systems, and I also know the Government itself has been giving these two systems ###### in preventing them from marketing this worldwide in the name of national security. They know if it gets out, the authorities will not be able to do what they are doing now. They want to buy and hold it exclusively for themselves in their efforts to protect the Governments Data and their missile systems from being cracked and entered from hackers and terrorists etc. Believe it or not it is so good, even the Government and they have tried it repeatly with the best of hackers who were paid and the best of experts who were paid and cannot crack this system themselves and they do not know what and how such can be done because the creators will not give the Government this secret due to their dispute.

So for now, the Government put the clamps on the creators of this system and is preventing them from marketing their prize to the public so the only way now they can make any money is from private contacts. Also I must add it is quite expensive thus putting it out of reach for most common folks. I think they sell it such around near the 5G figure last I heard and that was about roughly a year and a half ago. It was created about that same time period, so it is indeed very new.

Daveyo

Edited March 29, 2005 by DaveYo

[kat]

They found photographs, letters, and a map; that is a lot more than "suspicion". And why should they treat him differently because he is 87 and in a wheelchair? The girls were ages 9 and 12! He wants to be known as "Uncle Johnny" and had naked pictures of other children as well.

It is unbelievable to me that some of you are more cocerened with the reach of US law rather than the otherwise impunity of foreign pedophiles.

[meom]

Get my drift here.  So they decide to look into your bag and you got some goodies inside such as sex toys of all sorts, and even maps of where the hot spots are at in the red light district, and pics of naughty girls getting your dander up and you decided to have a taste of its special delights so its vacation time etc. 

Daveyo

Agree with Kat. In this case the pics of naughty girls were pics of children.

[sriracha john]

I can certainly see the two sides of this issue from Dave and Kat. I agree with Kat that there was some definite grounds to go after this guy and that his age is irrelevant. I also agree with Dave's concern that this could certainly be used as a stepping stone to more controversial and intrusive actions on the part of the government. I'm very glad they nailed this guy in particular and essentially gave him a life sentence, but I'm also worried about the potential for further erosion of personal liberties. IF it goes no further, then I'm satisfied... but when, as an example, the USA says I can't have a Cuban cigar in Thailand, then civil disobedience is necessary.

[DaveYo]

Kat, I am specifically discussing of about RIGHTS of PEOPLE, regardless of what they do or what their interests or activities are about. First the authorities had no darn way of knowing what was in that bag concerning his personal stuff, and secondly they had no search warrant, nor was there a warrant for his arrest. They took him based on suspicion because of the way they intercepted someones private mail messages.

Now let's start right here at this point. Authorities intercepted by fat chance his messages. Secondly he initially has not committed a crime by writing dirty crap or stories of purient interests, because writings can be construed to be fiction to non fiction or means of thoughts or ideas of people of regardless of what they want to say. Bottom line in this part, FREEDOM OF SPEECH AND THOUGHT TO EXPRESS ONESELF REGARDLESS OF HOW INSANE IT MIGHT BE.

They track him down via the internet tracing which is your computer ID etc. So what do they have now at first ---- just a message of immoral statements. Right!!!!! So now they jump the gun and observe his activities seeing him go to some travel agency and he purchase tickets to have a vacation. So they then find that out after he leaves his destination and then use this FED LAW and wait for him at the airport with a supposed probable cause.

Now at the airport they take him in for questioning, and viola they open his suitcase and see sex toys etc, and maps and names and everything else. So this part of the evidence is in fact inadmissable in the court of law since they actually have no victim nor was there a crime being committed in the first place. So technically this FED LAW has over extended its bounds and this alone threatens every citizen who may ever have purient interest to what ever extreme they deem as normal.

The last thing we all need is someone to come around and tell you or me or anyone else what is ######o right or wrong as to how we think or want to do otherwise.

Shito, you forgot what you were doing when you were a fiesty teenager. Many teenies are hopping like bunny rabbits, and rightfully so I have come across that you can swear that they appear old enough and act older than their actual age and vise versa some I have met I thought were too young yet they over age 21.

Looks can be very deceiving and is always in some cases.

Here is a guy 87 years old and cannot walk much less have the means to hop like a bunny but dream of his younger days and is wishful that he was young again and misses the finer points of life. He is no sex offender, but a person who needs mainly some attention and some help to direct his depression towards something else that would be more beneficial to him rather than be accused left and right of what he initially was thinking in the first place.

So give the S O B a break and take into consideration of his age and his lack of mobility of being able to really do things that a normal person does and look at another area of the reason WHY and WHAT caused him to think this way in the first place. He has no prior record. Doesn't that speak for itself being clean for 87 ######o years!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Daveyo