Us Able To Prosecute American Sex Crimes

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Which law takes precedence?

American or foreign?

I can have sex with a 16 year old girl in Thailand, quite legally,

but in the US it would be illegal.

Will I be prosecuted under US law?

Just wondering!!

Make sure you get a note from her parents.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

or a receipt

[meom]

You would make a good trial lawyer

[meom]

Daveyo, You would make a good trial lawyer

[DaveYo]

Dr. PPPPPPp, the way it is written now this Fed Law, (whew) hard to type with around, is that if your American (per se) the law can reach you here if they have mere suspicion I guess (not sure) and get you when you return home. Other prior cases indicate such. So it is up to the Prosecutors division to say go or no go, but again they need more than mere say so like some proof of some illegal activity in that specific area. Last known case shows messages can be used against you.

Currently the law is very vague and not really specific, thus giving broad powers of discretion of who gets charged or not charged. Meaning it is wide open for duck season!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That is how I am seeing and how I read the law.

Daveyo

[DaveYo]

Another way of saying this is if your American, American law take precedence before Foreign. If your not American, then they cannot touch you but foreign law take precedence.

Weird question

Daveyo

[hokiefan]

I don't really understand all this bashing about the strong arm of the US law and that this is another example of US imperialism. First it applies only to US citizens and only to US citizens that break a US law. Second, there are a number of other countries (including European countries) that enable those countries to prosecute their citizens for breaking the law while in another country. I remember a case a while back of an Austrian citizen who murdered someone while on a trip to the US. He managed to make it back to Austria before he was arrested. He was tried and convicted in Austria of the crime even though the crime was committed in the US.

I imagine the underlying reasons for this law is to fight human trafficking and child exploitation in countries where local law enforcement is relaxed, reluctant or otherwise unwilling to investigate and prosecute these crimes. How common is child exploitation in countries like Thailand and Cambodia and how often are people convicted of these crimes?

[kat]

Dave, I can definitely understand your argument from a "rights" perspective, but in any free society there are also laws that define the limits of personal rights in the interest of society at large (the old example of erroneously shouting fire in a crowded theater).

I completely agree with IJWT's statement that neo-conservatives use cases such as this one to implement more intrusive laws on a broader scale. However, I also believe in prosecuting pedophiles, and I support a crackdown on pedophile sex tourists. I think the challenge is to make sure that the Protect Act maintains its narrow focus on pedophiles who have sex with children under 16 years of age.

The article states:

"He was arrested at Los Angeles International Airport in October 2003 as he prepared to board a flight to the Philippines, where prosecutors said he was planning to have sex with two girls aged nine and 12.

The suspect was armed with 45 kilograms (100 pounds) of chocolates, sex aids, pornographic pictures and sexually explicit letters written to the two young girls.

Many of the pictures show the old man with small girls who were often naked. Seljan is sometimes naked or has his underwear pulled down, while his letters to the girls are rife with references to their "love-making."

Seljan, who urged young girls to call him "Uncle Johnny," told FBI agents who arrested him that he had been "educating" young Filipinas for 20 years but did not know that his actions were illegal, his trial court had heard ...

Prosecutors say Seljan, who authorities began investigating in November 2002 after intercepting one of his letters, also had maps to the girls' homes in his luggage."

[COLOR=purple] This is hardly flimsy evidence or a whimsical search. They have been watching this guy since 2002, most likely on a tip. Therefore, I believe by law they had probable cause to stop and search this guy, and they nailed him.

Sorry, but anything else would be along the lines of requiring "4 male witnesses to the rape" to apprehend and prosecute, which is obviously impossible.

[sriracha john]

He's also a repeat convicted sex offender with time for statutory rape in Wisconsin.

He's a predator.... and he's gone for good now....

20 years in federal prison.

Good riddance to the deviant.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

He's also a repeat convicted sex offender with time for statutory rape in Wisconsin.

He's a predator.... and he's gone for good now....

20 years in federal prison.

Good riddance to the deviant.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Seconded John

[Kerryd]

Canada enacted a similar law quite a few years ago. Basically, if you do something in another country that would be considered a crime in Canada, you would be arrested (in Canada) and charged accordingly (assuming that you made it back to Canada).

A few years ago ('98), I read a story about a Canadian arrested in Pattaya. Had thousands of photos and hundreds of videos depicting him (and others) having sex with children, some estimated to be as young as THREE years old ! From the locations in the pics/vids and other sources, the police figured he had been molesting children in Thailand, Laos and Cambodia.

I sent copies of the news articles to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP). I was hoping that if the guy somehow managed to evade Thai justice (that never happens, right ?), that the RCMP would arrest him when he touched down in Canada.

Odd though. I've searched the 'net quite a bit, and except for the initial news stories, I haven't seen anything else relating to the case. I even checked out the site that lists foreign prisoners held in Thai prisons. He's no where to be found.

I support the reasons Canada enacted this law. Too often people commit crimes in other places and manage to avoid punishment by fleeing the country. My main regret is that Canada often will not extradite foreign criminals, especially if they may face the death penalty (such as Rakesh Saxena, living under "house arrest" in Vancouver. Living in a penthouse apartment, he is even paying for his own personal security so that the taxpayers won't be burdened by the cost).

So, Canada will charge Canadians who commit crimes overseas, and will let foreign criminals live at large in Canada (if they committed crimes in countries that have the death penalty). Odd world we live in.

Edited April 2, 2005 by Kerryd

[gburns57au]

The law he was arrested and charged under was a law that relates to having underage sex in foreign countries.....if you rob a bank in Thailand and go back to the States, you cant be charged unless there is an extradition treaty in place. You may then be sent back to Thailand to face the charges.

In the case of this law.....Your own country has decreed that it is against the laws of the USA to engage in underage sex while in another country. Therefore if you engage in sex with a person under the age of 16 in Thailand, irrespective of Thailand laws, you have broken a law of the USA and therefore can be charged in the US.

If you are arrested in Thailand for having sex with an underage child in Thailand, you will face the charges in Thailand and if convicted will serve the time in a Thai jail....once you have served your time or been released from Thai custody, you will not be tried again for those offences back in your own country.

This my interpretation of that law, it is the same law that applies in many western countries now.

I think that the offenders age should not be an issue....he has broken the law. If he molested your kids, would you still think that he should escape punishment because of his age....I think not...he was tinkering with girls well under the legal age in any country and thought he was doing nothing wrong...gimme a break !!! As for invasion of privacy with the reading his mail....I would say that the cops received information about this guys activities and then proceeded to investigate him. That is a totally normal and correct thing to do.

One more scumbag out of circulation....

[DaveYo]

The law he was arrested and charged under was a law that relates to having underage sex in foreign countries.....if you rob a bank in Thailand and go back to the States, you cant be charged unless there is an extradition treaty in place. You may then be sent back to Thailand to face the charges.

In the case of this law.....Your own country has decreed that it is against the laws of the USA to engage in underage sex while in another country. Therefore if you engage in sex with a person under the age of 16 in Thailand, irrespective of Thailand laws, you have broken a law of the USA and therefore can be charged in the US.

If you are arrested in Thailand for having sex with an underage child in Thailand, you will face the charges in Thailand and if convicted will serve the time in a Thai jail....once you have served your time or been released from Thai custody, you will not be tried again for those offences back in your own country.

This my interpretation of that law, it is the same law that applies in many western countries now.

I think that the offenders age should not be an issue....he has broken the law. If he molested your kids, would you still think that he should escape punishment because of his age....I think not...he was tinkering with girls well under the legal age in any country and thought he was doing nothing wrong...gimme a break !!! As for invasion of privacy with the reading his mail....I would say that the cops received information about this guys activities and then proceeded to investigate him. That is a totally normal and correct thing to do.

One more scumbag out of circulation....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hold on here!!!!!! Read that LAW AGAIN. "It specifically says if you engaged in sex while in another country" and you are wrong concerning another issue. If you get caught in another country while engaged in Sex with a person under age 16, and do time, and then get deported, YOU ALSO WILL BE CHARGED UNDER THE FEDERAL USA LAW, AND ALSO DO TIME IN USA FOR THE FRICKING SAME OFFENSE.

So in other words you not only have one whammy to deal with, you have two whammy's to deal with concerning serving sentences or convictions etc. One in the Foreign country and one in your own country. Understand.!!!!!!!!!!!!!! USA interpretation of this law extends out across the world and this conflicts with a well known law in USA that those charged shall not be put in Double Jeapordy of being charged again twice for the same offense, which in that case makes the USA Law technically UnConstitutional and Void. To this date no one has challenged this Law thru the Courts system.

So if they have been so called watching since 2002, what took them so long?????? Also he DID NOT ENGAGE IN SEX WITH ANY MINOR IN THE FOREIGN COUNTRY, BECAUSE HE WAS STILL IN USA. Understand that position please, if you quote the law specifics.

Number 3 USA GOVERNMENT IS THE BIGGEST PRODUCER AND DISSEMINATOR OF KIDDIE PORN. They do this in their ideals thinking this is the way to catch people. IN REALITY this is entrapment because they set up their operations to catch those who might somehow get into the scene for various reasons, and presto a sting operation comes about and you get arrested. Technically if there was no sex site or chat room or brochures, no one would know and no one will be involved in those activities. "This is a well known fact and has been such for years going back to the 60's"

There are many mags and books concerning of the USA GOVERNMENT'S ILLEGAL ACTIVITIES ALL OVER THE PLACE. Last but not least the USA Government is the BIGGEST PERSONA LIAR IN MOST CASES IN THE COURTS. They fabricate and make other charges stick even tho you have not done such crimes in their efforts to secure at least one conviction out of those charges. If they stayed and only charged just what you did wrong, they will never win many cases. In a sense your are blackmailed by the Government and authorities.

If you don't believe me, then try yourself and get arrested and you will find out. I know some people who got involved in this frickin mess even tho not wanting to be in it in the first place and man o man, they had a heck of a time trying to clear their name besides fighting the original charges and accusations. Example.>>>> Say you had a friend, and stop at a 7 Eleven store, you give your friend some money to get you a roast beef sandwich, and he goes inside while you talk on the phone to someone else. When he comes back he gives you your sandwich, and says lets go in a hurried kind of way, and next thing you know the police have surrounded your car and you get arrested. Your charged with Armed robbery, Assault and everything else your friend did, and he then makes the effort to avoid taking the full weight and full responsibility of his actions and also says your involved too even tho you had no idea of what in the heck he did in the 7 Eleven.

This in fact actually did take place, and it wasn't until later that the real Bozo who did all the crime, finally said that his friend was not involved. It took years just for the other guy to clear his fricking name after serving some time for a crime he never committed in the first place.

Now someone says he had a prior conviction supposingly in Wisconsin PROVE IT.

I want to see that report. Upon his time of arrest there was no mentioning of his prior convictions coming from the official authorities source.

Daveyo

[DaveYo]

If people want to be really real and do it correctly then it should be done like this as follows:

If a person commits a crime in a foreign country and they know who it is and have the real evidence to prove, it being all legit etc then the offended country should go to the foreigners Government notifying that they have an arrest warrant for their individual, and the other country locate and arrest that person. Once arrested, then the persons Government notifys the foreign country that they have such individual in custody, come and get him meaning extradiction. The offending country picks him up and takes custody of such person and then they do the trial process etc. If convicted then do the time there, and when done persona non grata same individual and deport said offender back to his own country permanently.

All said and done. No extending of laws, or the strong arm etc. No need to do that. Simple cooperation of all governments pertaining to any citizen and due process rights and law. Why make it so fricking complicated.

If accused can prove that they not commited said crime during the extradiction process and that such is completely legit, and verified, then said accused does not get extradited and is protected by the accused own Government due to citizenship and is released. Simple and said and done.

By the way such is in effect now in most countries due to their treaties.

Daveyo

[The_Moog]

prosecutors said he was planning to have sex with two girls aged nine and 12.

The suspect was armed with 45 kilograms (100 pounds) of chocolates

Not if they get chronic diabetes first.

[hokiefan]

Kat, I am specifically discussing of about RIGHTS of PEOPLE, regardless of what they do or what their interests or activities are about.  First the authorities had no darn way of knowing what was in that bag concerning his personal stuff, and secondly they had no search warrant, nor was there a warrant for his arrest.  They took him based on suspicion because of the way they intercepted someones private mail messages.

Now let's start right here at this point.  Authorities intercepted by fat chance his messages.  Secondly he initially has not committed a crime by writing dirty crap or stories of purient interests, because writings can be construed to be fiction to non fiction or means of thoughts or ideas of people of regardless of what they want to say.  Bottom line in this part, FREEDOM OF SPEECH AND THOUGHT TO EXPRESS ONESELF REGARDLESS OF HOW INSANE IT MIGHT BE.

They track him down via the internet tracing which is your computer ID etc.  So what do they have now at first ----  just a message of immoral statements.  Right!!!!!    So now they jump the gun and observe his activities seeing him go to some travel agency and he purchase tickets to have a vacation.    So they then find that out after he leaves his destination and then use this FED LAW and wait for him at the airport with a supposed probable cause. 

Now at the airport they take him in for questioning, and viola they open his suitcase and see sex toys etc, and maps and names and everything else.  So this part of the evidence is in fact inadmissable in the court of law since they actually have no victim nor was there a crime being committed in the first place.  So technically this FED LAW has over extended its bounds and this alone threatens every citizen who may ever have purient interest to what ever extreme they deem as normal.

The last thing we all need is someone to come around and tell you or me or anyone else what is ######o right or wrong as to how we think or want to do otherwise.

Shito, you forgot what you were doing when you were a fiesty teenager.  Many teenies are hopping like bunny rabbits, and rightfully so I have come across that you can swear that they appear old enough and act older than their actual age and vise versa some I have met I thought were too young yet they over age 21.

Looks can be very deceiving and is always in some cases. 

Here is a guy 87 years old and cannot walk much less have the means to hop like a bunny but dream of his younger days and is wishful that he was young again and misses the finer points of life.  He is no sex offender, but a person who needs mainly some attention and some help to direct his depression towards something else that would be more beneficial to him rather than be accused left and right of what he initially was thinking in the first place.

So give the S O B a break and take into consideration of his age and his lack of mobility of being able to really do things that a normal person does and look at another area of the reason WHY and WHAT caused him to think this way in the first place.  He has no prior record.  Doesn't that speak for itself being clean for 87 ######o years!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Daveyo

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you read the same article as me, there is no mention of a search or arrest warrant. This does not mean there wasn't one, you are assuming there wasn't one. Also, they inspected his bags at an airport. Next time you go to the airport and the authorities want to inspect your bags see how far you get with the excuse that they do not have a search warrant. The authorities have the "right" to search your bags at an airport, suspicion or not.

In this case it appears there was preliminary suspicion, i.e. intercepting messages. There is no mention of the underlying reasons or methods of intercepting these messages but it may very well have been completely legitimate. Again not all the facts are present in the article so you are filling in the gaps with your assumptions.

Regarding that messages are just simply free will, fiction or non-fiction is not always the case in the eyes of the law. Write an email to a friend threatening the life of the US president and you will get a visit from the secret service and will probably be charged with a crime, even though you didn't mean it.

Regardless, the messages that were intercepted provide a basis for intent. The items found in his possession, sex toys and pictures provide corroborating evidence that there was substance behind the messages. As far as his age goes, at what age do you decide someone is too old to prosecute?

[sriracha john]

So if they have been so called watching since 2002, what took them so long??????  Also he DID NOT ENGAGE IN SEX WITH ANY MINOR IN THE FOREIGN COUNTRY, BECAUSE HE WAS STILL IN USA.     Understand that position please, if you quote the law specifics.

It's called "i-n-t-e-n-t".... and is a criminal charge for any host of offenses, including intent to commit murder, intent to commit rape, intent to commit arson, etc. etc.

Number 3   USA GOVERNMENT IS THE BIGGEST PRODUCER AND DISSEMINATOR OF KIDDIE PORN.

say wha??   

They do this in their ideals thinking this is the way to catch people.   IN REALITY  this is entrapment because they set up their operations to catch those who might somehow get into the scene for various reasons, and presto a sting operation comes about and you get arrested.   Technically if there was no sex site or chat room or brochures, no one would know and no one will be involved in those activities.    "This is a well known fact and has been such for years going back to the 60's"

Even IF your absurd hypothesis was correct, one way not to get "entrapped" by the government is by avoiding the naked photos of 6 year old girls.

If you don't believe me, then try yourself and get arrested and you will find out.

Interesting proposal you have there, but I think, as a rational person, I'll give it a pass.  

  I know some people who got involved in this frickin mess even tho not wanting to be in it in the first place and man o man, they had a heck of a time trying to clear their name besides fighting the original charges and accusations.   Example.>>>>  Say you had a friend, and stop at a 7 Eleven store, you give your friend some money to get you a roast beef sandwich, and he goes inside while you talk on the phone to someone else.  When he comes back he gives you your sandwich, and says lets go in a hurried kind of way, and next thing you know the police have surrounded your car and you get arrested.  Your charged with Armed robbery, Assault and everything else your friend did, and he then makes the effort to avoid taking the full weight and full responsibility of his actions and also says your involved too even tho you had no idea of what in the heck he did in the 7 Eleven.    

This in fact actually did take place, and it wasn't until later that the real Bozo who did all the crime, finally said that his friend was not involved.   It took years just for the other guy to clear his fricking name after serving some time for a crime he never committed in the first place. 

Hmm... I wonder if the police have ever heard this before as a result of a crime. That one of the persons involved in a non-solo crime states that they didn't know anything about what the other persons were doing...   

I'm sorry this person had such an ordeal, but his claim certainly mimics other's "jailhouse blues" songs. I might suggest that he find a better class of "friend" while he's at it.

Now someone says he had a prior conviction supposingly in Wisconsin  PROVE IT.

I want to see that report.  

From: KNBC-TV Los Angeles -

"Seljan, who reportedly told girls that having sex with them keeps him "young," had a 1977 conviction for first-degree sexual assault on an 11- year-old in Wisconsin."

Daveyo

Anything else you need refuted, Dave? If not, then I hope you have a nice day and I hope you get some sleep tonight, notwithstanding all these governmental conspirators that are out and about.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh, and one other thing. Mr. Seljan will leave that federal prison in a body bag. Maybe they'll throw some of his chocolates into the bag when he's being carried out for a bit of a poignancy.

Edited April 4, 2005 by sriracha john

[gburns57au]

So if they have been so called watching since 2002, what took them so long??????  Also he DID NOT ENGAGE IN SEX WITH ANY MINOR IN THE FOREIGN COUNTRY, BECAUSE HE WAS STILL IN USA.     Understand that position please, if you quote the law specifics.

It's called "i-n-t-e-n-t".... and is a criminal charge for any host of offenses, including intent to commit murder, intent to commit rape, intent to commit arson, etc. etc.

Number 3   USA GOVERNMENT IS THE BIGGEST PRODUCER AND DISSEMINATOR OF KIDDIE PORN.

say wha??   

They do this in their ideals thinking this is the way to catch people.   IN REALITY  this is entrapment because they set up their operations to catch those who might somehow get into the scene for various reasons, and presto a sting operation comes about and you get arrested.   Technically if there was no sex site or chat room or brochures, no one would know and no one will be involved in those activities.    "This is a well known fact and has been such for years going back to the 60's"

Even IF your absurd hypothesis was correct, one way not to get "entrapped" by the government is by avoiding the naked photos of 6 year old girls.

If you don't believe me, then try yourself and get arrested and you will find out.

Interesting proposal you have there, but I think, as a rational person, I'll give it a pass.  

  I know some people who got involved in this frickin mess even tho not wanting to be in it in the first place and man o man, they had a heck of a time trying to clear their name besides fighting the original charges and accusations.   Example.>>>>  Say you had a friend, and stop at a 7 Eleven store, you give your friend some money to get you a roast beef sandwich, and he goes inside while you talk on the phone to someone else.  When he comes back he gives you your sandwich, and says lets go in a hurried kind of way, and next thing you know the police have surrounded your car and you get arrested.  Your charged with Armed robbery, Assault and everything else your friend did, and he then makes the effort to avoid taking the full weight and full responsibility of his actions and also says your involved too even tho you had no idea of what in the heck he did in the 7 Eleven.    

This in fact actually did take place, and it wasn't until later that the real Bozo who did all the crime, finally said that his friend was not involved.   It took years just for the other guy to clear his fricking name after serving some time for a crime he never committed in the first place. 

Hmm... I wonder if the police have ever heard this before as a result of a crime. That one of the persons involved in a non-solo crime states that they didn't know anything about what the other persons were doing...   

I'm sorry this person had such an ordeal, but his claim certainly mimics other's "jailhouse blues" songs. I might suggest that he find a better class of "friend" while he's at it.

Now someone says he had a prior conviction supposingly in Wisconsin  PROVE IT.

I want to see that report.  

From: KNBC-TV Los Angeles -

"Seljan, who reportedly told girls that having sex with them keeps him "young," had a 1977 conviction for first-degree sexual assault on an 11- year-old in Wisconsin."

Daveyo

Anything else you need refuted, Dave? If not, then I hope you have a nice day and I hope you get some sleep tonight, notwithstanding all these governmental conspirators that are out and about.

Oh, and one other thing. Mr. Seljan will leave that federal prison in a body bag. Maybe they'll throw some of his chocolates into the bag when he's being carried out for a bit of a poignancy.

Well said SJ......

Funny tho.....the people that shout the loudest usually have the most to hide. Just a general obversation.

[nick2k]

question...

I've seen some guys who I know are pedophiles. are there monetary rewards given for bringing them in?

[spacebass]

Which law takes precedence?

American or foreign?

I can have sex with a 16 year old girl in Thailand, quite legally,

but in the US it would be illegal.

Will I be prosecuted under US law?

Just wondering!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thailand is actually 15 for non commercial sex , Mexico 12!! Netherlands 12!!!

Just another example of the US trying to rule the world and tell other countries how to run themselves

Wasn't so long ago, if not today you could marry in Alabama at 14, and don't most of the civilised world abhor the death penalty? Do the yanks give a shit?

[SoCal]

Spaceass,

Have a hard time understanding the concept of sovereignty?

How exactly is it the US telling other countries how to run themselves?

Would seem that it is the US telling it's citizens how to conduct themselves abroad, much the same as the Aussies.

Why don't you admit your real objection to these laws?

[britmaveric]

Missing the point - regardless if you think sleeping w/tikes is ok or not in other countries. The law has been created by home countries to combat this practice. So unless you want to end up in the clink I'd suggest you keep your sexual activities to willing adults.

[spacebass]

Spaceass,

Have a hard time understanding the concept of sovereignty?

How exactly is it the US telling other countries how to run themselves?

Would seem that it is the US telling it's citizens how to conduct themselves abroad, much the same as the Aussies.

Why don't you admit your real objection to these laws? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Americans have a hard time viewing anything from a detached analytical viewpoint, take the nonsense spouted out all day about Terry Schievo and the complete apparent disregard for the principle of the separation of power between the Judiciary and the Executive by seemingly high powered jounalists who ought to know better.

Any one who disagrees with an Americans view (big brother) is cast as the villain, in the Schievo case a murderer, in your case as whatever you are trying to imply. Utter nonsense with no logic attached.

And all this talk of sovereignty from a member of a nation that invades and causes total mayhem in a foreign country on the basis of a personal grudge by its leader excused by him at the time with intelligence that at last has been described by his own enquiry as deeply flawed and highly wanting in substance, very similar to your post!

Keep on truckin USA!!! (Or wake up!!)

[SoCal]

So you are a relativist when it comes to having sex with children?

Speaking of Iraq, at least you have the modus operandi correct. Will give you that.

Sounds like you are pro pedophile, and anti American. Strange friends you make.

[spacebass]

So you are a relativist when it comes to having sex with children?

Speaking of Iraq, at least you have the modus operandi correct. Will give you that.

Sounds like you are pro pedophile, and anti American. Strange friends you make.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I believe that paedophilia is quite wrong.

But I think the laws of every country should be respected as a matter of course, whatever the subject. i.e. if a UK citizen wants to go to Alabama USA and marry and have sex with a US girl of 14 because it is permitted there, then the UK government should not be able to outlaw this because it is illegal in the UK, does the US government believe that other countries should legislate to effectively outlaw the morality of the US as it effects its citizens, I doubt if big brother would countenance that!.

Would (have) the US deport(ed) a British citizen to face charges in the UK if he had legally marries a 14 year old in Alabama?

Remember Jerry Lewis had to come to the UK before his marriage to a 14 year old caused any ripples.

I do not believe that having sex with someone who has attained natural puberty is the act of a Paedophile as is often written in order to add emotional weight to a persons distate for such practices, whether it is morally or legally undesirable is subject to many variables i.e. if the girl/boy is 14 and the perpetrator (?) 17 I would not say it was particularly undesirable but if the girl/boy was 14 and the perpetrator

50 I would say it was undesirable. It is hardly rational to suggest that someone can be mature enough to marry at 16 and not mature enough to have a kiss and a cuddle at 14, but the nature of the beast makes due protection difficult.

Considering there is evidence to suggest that most of the worlds under 16s are indulging in some sort of sexual practice as is believe it or not natural, it would indicate that legislating against nature is futile.

A paedophile is someone who is attracted to children, a child is someone between birth and puberty, i.e. a person who is not sexually mature, I think the attempted broader use of the word to include sexually mature people will eventually erode the emotional value of this word and with it its value in stirring wrathful emotion (or analysis) when it is appropriate.

As for anti American , I am English and right wing, I grew up in the sixties Wilson Picket, Otis, Tamla Motown, Grateful Dead , Crosby Stills Nash & Young ( and Tubular bells at blue dawn driving across the rockies having headed straight out after a CSN&Y gig at Oakland stadium) was I anti American then, certainly not, am I anti American now, well I would say in my heart not, but it is interesting that Americans lately seem to be describing anyone who writes a few facts about the USA recent behaviour as anti American maybe its the behaviour that is at fault not the observance thereof, like if I was Iran and the US says its OK for Israel to have a nuclear bomb, I would sure as ###### consider it my right to have one as well!!!!

Edited April 5, 2005 by spacebass

[sriracha john]

Perhaps you can post your definition of a pedophile if and when the USA prosecutes adults for sex with 16/17 year olds. The issue at hand... this case... the ages are 9 and 11. The oldest victim in any case prosecuted yet, to the best of my research is 13. I think the american prosecutors are fairly practical and realistic and don't seem to be going after the people you are speaking of... sex with 16/17 year olds. They got their hands full just dealing with the deviants that are pursuing actual children.

I'm not anti-American, just anti-Bush... that, I would profer, is really a more accurate reflection of your views as well?

[Boon Mee]

I'm not anti-American, just anti-Bush... that, I would profer, is really a more accurate reflection of your views as well?

That statement appears so frequently these days it's not even the smoke screen it was initially intended to be.

Just more "Yank-Bashing"...

[Khun Larry]

U.S. Able to Prosecute Americans Who Commit Sex Crimes Overseas

A warning to Americans against committing sexual offenses abroad.

 

American agents are careful to open investigations only with the cooperation of host countries, said Michael J. Garcia, who oversees immigration and customs enforcement. In Cambodia, for instance, the police have in several cases charged Americans under local ordinances, then held them for extradition in close coordination with American officials.

And in the Washington suburbs, several analysts at the immigration agency's cybercrimes unit now peruse the Internet and follow tips about sex tourism networks abroad.

--The New York Times 2004-06-08

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

All that would be fine if the agents and prosecutors weren't such &lt;deleted&gt;.

Ya gotta love America ...... Land of the FREE.

[sriracha john]

I'm not anti-American, just anti-Bush... that, I would profer, is really a more accurate reflection of your views as well?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That statement appears so frequently these days it's not even the smoke screen it was initially intended to be.

Just more "Yank-Bashing"...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

ching ching... I'm not against myself, I'm against him...

[DaveYo]

Spacebass, you have pretty much answered all the questions bestowed upon me. However, yet there are those who advocate and those who are against. Strange as it may be, now interesting (at this moment) one can marry a girl age 9 in Lebanon, and one can marry a girl once she has her first menstration in India---> which can begin at any time and age is unknown.

Some countries even in Central America have very young age limits before being considered old enough yet there are those that say bull she is still too young as many Americans (the way they think as of ideals).

What I am saying some of this is Governmental Law and some of it is Religious Law as beliefs are concerned.

So I put it like this, different strokes for different folks. Not everyone is going to believe that a 10 or 11 or 12 or 13 or 14 or 15 or 16 or 17 is mature enough or old enough to understand what in the heck is going on much less the same for males too. Each one matures at different levels, and at different rates. So where does one really draw the line. In the old days going back just 200 years, many married very young granted that the life spans were indeed short. So if we were to shoot back in time, you would be shocked to say the least of the things they were doing back then and it would not be acceptable to you. So if you shoot into the future, who knows what it will be then!!!!!!!!

So in trying to deal with this, one cannot say not to prosecute some 87 year old dude, but one can say and ask many questions of WHY and seek an answer for him to channel the thinking in a more correct way since he is wheel chair bound. I feel bad because of his physical condition, but at same token what supposingly he was going to do is hard to phantom and believe since it will be awful difficult for him. His thoughts and or plans was way out of line, and considered insane. It makes me wonder why it would take him two years to come up with enough guts to attempt the venture. I am sure he had second thoughts from time to time.

Then again, everything is just a guess and just a presumption. I am trying to really keep a neutral outlook at all this, and not be one to condemn or advocate this incident or ideals or beliefs one way or the other.

Personally I think someone at that age really does needs some serious counseling and advisories, and help rather than jail. I also don't believe in paying my tax dollars to house someone 87 years old, much less have to also be paying my tax dollars to also house some 16 or 17 year old dude who played slap and tickle with a freshie in high school.

As to the USA law extending to Aussies, the answer is no. It only affects USA Citizens who go abroad. Australia I believe have their own version of this and how they use it. The same with UK.

The issue I making here and the point I am talking about is the "DOUBLE JEAPORDY" because it says you pay for two convictions and is charged twice for the very same offense. 1st conviction is in the foreign country, 2nd conviction is in America BOTH for the same offense and crime. Understand. This is what I am saying is wrong, and therefore the long arm of the law concerning USA on this issue is WRONG. Also this same law is very VAGUE, meaning it has so many holes in its origins and has no real dictated course to be specific as to when this particular law begins or ends.

I myself personally believe if one person was tried and convicted of the offense in the foreign country, and served the sentence, then that crime and issue becomes dead to all others. But because of this law, once the person has served such sentence in the foreign country and leaves to return home, NOW comes the USA and they arrest you and again charge you for the VERY SAME OFFENSE and if you get convicted in USA which is the 2nd one for the same offense, you again have to serve time in USA and then be released upon completion of said sentence.

This is Insane. How far will this go, and I also know that they are working to make the law broader and expand it to cover many other offenses.

To make it short YOUR RIGHTS IN AMERICA IS BEING ERODED SLOWLY BUT SURELY AND PRETTY SOON YOU WILL NOT HAVE ANY MORE RIGHTS TO CLAIM. THE AMERICAN CONSTITUTION WILL BECOME WORTHLESS to the EYES of the Government and be thrown out and the people told as a quote "The constitution is no longer in effect since it is too old and such cannot be applied to the times of today and the ideals of the people of today.

This "DOUBLE JEAPORDY" IS PRECISELY WHY THE COLONIES FOUGHT AGAINST ENGLAND IN THE FIRST PLACE." besides excessive TAXATION WITHOUT PROPER REPRESENTATION and many other etc's.

Does anyone wanna make a bet here with me on that statement concerning your rights???????????? If you compare what you used to do in the 60"s and what you can do today, you will find many of your past inalienable rights is totally GONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Another one----> They say you have the right to remain silent, yet if you exercise this right then the Courts turn around and threaten you with contempt of Court, Jail and Arrest. I can go on and on.

Last of all, Most of the American Public being the People are WIMPS AND SUBMISSIVE IDIOTS!!!!!!!!! If their Reps and Senators say we need to increase the taxes, the people say yes without thinking. Then when they wipe out your Rights one by one as they do in small amounts which gets watered down slowly, most Americans do not see it coming and end up believing the Governments excuses etc, that right disappears quietly out of sight. I have yet to see one American PUBLIC OFFICIAL fight for the Rights of the People and Condemn the Government and the Courts for what they are doing. They don't have any guts and most Americans claim they don't have the time or want or desire to protect themselves against Governmental Ideals or methods be it on Taxation, Rights or even policies concerning environment, education or even on Intrusive Investigative methods. If you complain of the taxes imposed upon you, heck you can lose everything you got and even get jailed while you protest. Is this the America many of you Americans want?????????????????

As for me I am a REBEL yet American!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and yet cannot do it alone, but got the heck out of there before I get wiped out or be forced to work myself to death just paying the Government and all its taxes that they have imposed. I don't want to beome one of the VICTIMS OF THE USA GOVERNMENT like many of the Americans today are without them knowing it.

Daveyo

Edited April 5, 2005 by DaveYo

[aoc1234]

DaveYo, on the issue of search warrents etc, your understanding of US privacy laws is not the same as mine. I am not a lawyer, so I may be wrong, but...

1. In all U.S. airports now there are signs at the security point you have to go through to get to the gates that say "All bags and persons subject to search at any time". No search warrent required, no probable cause required.

2. The U.S. postal service has the right to open and search any letter or parcel it carries, no search warrant required, no probable cause required.

3. Customs has the right to open and search any letter or package crossing the border, no search warrant required, no probable cause required.

Can someone post a link to this 2003 law? I saw several posts above that said the law would prosecute for sex with someone under 16, but I think it can prosecute for sex with someone under 18, regardless of the age of consent in the state you live and regardless of the age of consent in the country you (plan to) travel to.

I also think that the law is being used not to convict, but to coerce and extract a guilty plea, so as to avoid having its constitutionality tested in the courts. You can't get a fair trial by jury for underage sex offenses in the U.S., because you can't pick a random set of 12 adults without finding one or more who are willing to vote for capital punishment based on a mere suspicion of pedophilia, regardless of what the law says about standards of proof, evidence, etc etc.