The State Of The Industry - Hiring Season 2007

[Ijustwannateach]

It has not been a heartening year for foreigners interested in teaching in Thailand.

First of all, a general atmosphere of dislike of foreign tourists and residents from the former TRT government set the ball rolling for some major changes in visa rules. While fully legal teachers were not affected, many of the less fortunate saw the writing on the wall as visa runs were set to become both more expensive and more difficult, if not in some cases impossible.

Next, a number of scandals involving persons working illegally in the Kingdom (including the infamous and apparently exonerated loony J.M. Karr, as well as a few others on the run from sex charges in their home countries) were used as an excuse to scapegoat all foreign teachers. A "sky-is-falling" mentality brought on a midyear hodgepodge of ill-conceived qualifications requirements, most of which were never fully defined and/or enforced- they were rushed, self-contradictory, and more-or-less impossible. Highlights included an unspecified set of requirements for teaching, including the possibility of teachers who had already been granted licenses by the Thai government suddenly losing those licenses retroactively. Those who didn't meet the requirements had an even muddier road to absolution, including a nightmarish "Thai cultural" requirement (my favourite silly point of that curriculum: the need for all teachers to know the names of Thai musical instruments and their constituent parts- how many of you can do that with all the WESTERN instruments??).

Most legal foreign teachers filled out applications for continued ability to teach in the Kingdom; while the 500B fees for those applications were snapped up in an orderly manner, nothing ever seemed to come of them either in the way of permissions or clarifications. The best informed Thai source I know about said "maybe we will hear something in a year or two." Of course, that's if we don't have 3 different education ministers in the intervening months.

A new requirement which seems to be getting more enforcement (though it is no more clear) is the "police clearance." Some foreigners are asked for it- some aren't. It seems to depend on where you're coming from, what your nationality is, whether you've already been living in Thailand, and who knows- perhaps your shoe size and favourite colour, too. There aren't any clear guidelines for how foreigners in a number of different countries can/should accomplish these clearances, or what would constitute grounds for a refusal (speeding tickets? minor drunk & disorderly charges 20 years ago? grand theft, auto?).

At the same time, salaries seem bogged down in the usual unsatisfactory mire. While a very few schools have finally begun to understand that you get what you pay for, many of them even in Bangkok are still offering peanuts for illegal work. It easily takes years for a new teacher to get the information and make the contacts to find a decent job- and with the increased visa restrictions and regulations, those are years that transient and illegal foreign workers can really no longer afford to risk here.

Peaceblondie and I have been saying this in asides for some time now, but I thought it was about time to make a formal statement (hope he agrees with me!). I understand and care about the plight of foreign teachers here in Thailand, and I have done my best for several years on a few websites to help them out. The best thing I can recommend now, if you are not already a teacher in Thailand who has a work permit and fully legal paperwork, is to STAY HOME. That's right, don't come here. The schizophrenia of the system may not be any one person's fault- and lord knows there are plenty of needy schools with enough money to hire someone but no ability to do it legally- and cowboy teachers may get away with being out of the system for a long time yet- but the way things have worked out the government itself doesn't know what to do with us or how to do it, and they won't even clearly tell those who aren't in the system how to get there. There's no guarantee at all that anyone out there- no matter how qualified- will be able to leap the system's hurdles (speeding tickets?), because no one has any idea what they are. Maybe if the pool of hires is half the size it was last year- with a load of new schools still being built and opening up- that will concentrate some more competent minds on the problem, or at least get them to stop making statements that seem calculated to make the few teachers already working legally here feel more and more insecure.

Good luck everyone, and welcome to the opening of hiring season, 2007.

"Steven"

[aussiestyle1983]

Good post. I'm one of the legal teachers who has decided to go home.............why?

1- I'm sick of all the BS and un-certanty here.

2- All tohugh I have a TL & WP WITHOUT a degree, I have decided to do a MEd (TEFL) in my home country ( a lot cheaper than you think! ) which would give me a teaching Qual back home and it would also be usefull when my wife and I return to Thailand, yes we will return here in the future, who knows when, but i'm sure having a degree would come in handy, especially if rules and requirements to become a teacher here become tougher and are actually enforced.

So, I may be leaving for now, untill things brighten up here and the future for ESL teachers becomes more certain, but untill then, I will be improving my qualifications ( in a country with a reputable education system ) so when I return here ( or to teach in another Asian country ), I can still become legal and I will also have greater knowledge in the ESL field so I can deliver a better education to my students.

So, I don't see leaving here as a problem, I wasn't forced to leave, my wife and I made that decision on our own but I do see leaving here as a posibility to start a better future for ourselves. Having said that, why shouldn't I leave? I think i've made the correct decision at this point in time............

Good luck to everyone else.

[PeaceBlondie]

This country is the Land of I Don't Know, more than it ever was. I was just recalling the ancient days of yore, four years ago, when Cvensachanichayet had this handy-dandy list of how a qualified teacher like myself could become legal with the MoE, the MoL, and the Immigration Police. Well, Ajarns Wachababalulu and Hasakamachapakorn didn't even want to read the list.

If you're still in another country, many of us advise you: DO NOT COME TO THAILAND TO TEACH. Sorry to shout, but sometimes you can't be heard above the noise of beautiful beaches, warm climate, nubile young bodies, spicy food, etc.

If you're not legal here yet, stop trying. Go home, or just retire. There's barely a 10% chance you'll get legal, for which you still won't be paid what you're worth, for the job as it usually stinks.

Call me bitter if you wish; I'm happy not putting up with the crap. It's been another bad year for teaching in Thailand, perhaps the worst yet. Do not forget that farang English teachers spent hard time in PRISON in Thailand this past year, for faking documents at the request of their school, also known as Shittycornsucks.

But let's be positive. The few lucky souls who probably survived their early illegal years as "Asian wetbacks" are now more or less comfortably sitting in half-decent schools, on half-decent salaries, more or less legally, and the nubile Thai partner is getting much older. Good for them. And honestly, there are some great teachers out there, both farang and Thai. They're just so few and far between!

[patongpanda]

Well, I moved to Korea and it has sure opened my eyes to how things should be:

1. Straightforward paper work.

2. No tea money.

3. Health Insurance

4. Pension

5. If you use an agent they get a one time payment, no one skimming money from the budget.

6. Legal from day 1.

7. Labour law protection

8. Decent salary

9. Modern classrooms with all the resource you need.

10.Enforceable contracts.

I'm never going to work illegally again for 25K Baht to enrich seedy crooks.

Might go back to the UK, get Qualified Teacher Status and then try for Internation schools.

[KhunLing]

I am not trying to take a shot at you guys without degrees...

However, you can't teach in ANY western country without a degree.

Aussiestyle...you can't teach in Aus without a degree.

Even teaching TESOL to O/S students in Aus...you need a degree.

I am just not sure why people complain about needing degrees. To teach ANYWHERE, you need one.

[patongpanda]

I am not trying to take a shot at you guys without degrees...

However, you can't teach in ANY western country without a degree.

Aussiestyle...you can't teach in Aus without a degree.

Even teaching TESOL to O/S students in Aus...you need a degree.

I am just not sure why people complain about needing degrees. To teach ANYWHERE, you need one.

Even if you have a degree you will still work illegally when you start.

Break the law for one month or for a year it's the same.

[Ijustwannateach]

Khun Ling, if you check the pinned thread in the teaching subforum about the guidelines here, the degree-no degree discussion is restricted here, for reasons spelled out in the pinned thread. I'm sure if you search through the back threads you will find quite long discussions on both sides of the fence about it. Furthermore, it is off-topic for this thread. Basically, it *is* possible (in other words, as a fact) to work legally as a TEFL teacher in Thailand without a college degree. You can find my personal opinion about whether this SHOULD be true as well as those of many more posters on those *OTHER* threads.

"Steven"

[aussiestyle1983]

However, you can't teach in ANY western country without a degree.

Aussiestyle...you can't teach in Aus without a degree.

Wrong & wrong again!

Obviously you don't have a degree, or you wouldn't of made such a comment without doing your research first.....

You can be a teacher in the state of NSW without a DEGREE (yes, without a university degree)

One of the entry pathways for teachers is to do the NSW department of education teacher training course, or whatever its called. The course is not a degree course, it does take some time to complete, maybe 2 years, but its not a degree and once you finish that course, you can become a legal teacher in NSW. If you have a degree, you just don't need to do that course, depending on what your major is, but there are OPTIONS for those wanting to become teachers.

Now if the MOE here had and ran such a course to train teachers here without education degrees (because a degree in an un-related field does not qualify you to be a teacher, here in LOS it does, but in the real world it doesn't) im sure many un-degreed people could start their teaching career here with proper training. But, as long as the MOE thinks a Nursing, Business, IT, Aeronautical Engineering or any other teaching un-related degree qualifies you to be a teacher here, well good luck to the Thai students!

[KhunLing]

You're slightly sensitive mate. I'm not going to bash you here because you're obviously stressed. Good luck with whatever you do back home.

You'll find the education related courses back home are heavily subsidised by the Govt. I should know, I did a post graduate TESOL at Uni and it was entirely subsidised by the Govt. There's a lack of teachers and the Govt wants to fix that. Teaching in Aus is a nightmare unless you're in the TESOL game. Good luck with your course.

I agree, the MOE should do something like that for people who genuinely want to get a further qualification.

They won't though. No Govt. is going to fund a course for non residents.

There's a million things that could be done to improve things here. For starters, don't restrict what jobs people married to Thai women can do. I know a guy who is married to a Thai and has no degree. The only job he's "entitled" to do is teach...yet it's very hard for him as he doesn't have a degree. He wants to live with his wife. That's hardly a crime.

Your idea is a good one. Odds of it ever being implemented in Thailand = zero.

Sad, but true.

BTW The course you mention is effectively the same as doing a degree. In other words, you still need a qualification. My point stands, you can't walk into a school in NSW and not have a qualification of some sort.

Edited April 9, 2007 by KhunLing

[aussiestyle1983]

You're slightly sensitive mate. I'm not going to bash you here because you're obviously stressed. Good luck with whatever you do back home.

You'll find the education related courses back home are heavily subsidised by the Govt. I should know, I did a post graduate TESOL at Uni and it was entirely subsidised by the Govt. There's a lack of teachers and the Govt wants to fix that. Teaching in Aus is a nightmare unless you're in the TESOL game. Good luck with your course.

I agree, the MOE should do something like that for people who genuinely want to get a further qualification.

They won't though. No Govt. is going to fund a course for non residents.

There's a million things that could be done to improve things here. For starters, don't restrict what jobs people married to Thai women can do. I know a guy who is married to a Thai and has no degree. The only job he's "entitled" to do is teach...yet it's very hard for him as he doesn't have a degree. He wants to live with his wife. That's hardly a crime.

Your idea is a good one. Odds of it ever being implemented in Thailand = zero.

Sad, but true.

BTW The course you mention is effectively the same as doing a degree. In other words, you still need a qualification. My point stands, you can't walk into a school in NSW and not have a qualification of some sort.

My apologies for taking my stress out on you and this thread.

Having said that, I don't see any future here, untill there are some dramatic changes to the ESL system, which can only be made by the stubborn bastards who are in high positions at the MOE. Untill that happens, I will be in Oz with my wife. I will study there and hopefully come back here more qualified to do what I had a passion doing, teaching others. I just find it difficult to explain to the Thai teachers and students that I work with why im leaving, basically I say I am forced to leave because there is no future for me here. It is my choice to leave, but that decision is based on many factors, factors that are controlled by your countty, not me.

[KhunLing]

There is little future here for teachers. Just uncertainty.

Going back to Aus is a good idea IMO. Me and my wife went back. She now has citizenship, an Aus passport and full benefits like health care and the pension (when she's old..lol). If things ever get bad, we'll simply leave.

I am 36 and I really don't think things are set up here for anyone who is NOT simply a retiree. This would be a great place to be retired and getting 50 000 baht a month to lounge around.

To try and make a career...different ballgame altogether.

[Whitey]

I agree with ijwt and pb, it's just too difficult to teach here and/or live here even when you have all the paperwork from the school and you are trying to do everything by the book. I won't even post some of what I have went through in the last 3 weeks because no one will believe me if I did. Stay home.

[engrin]

What happened Whitey? We want to know..

[PeaceBlondie]

Whitey, if you don't mind telling us, it would be good to know what incredible problems some teacherscan have, even when they're very experienced, and savy in the ways of ThaiTEFL and other-country TEFL, and you've said you work for a good school (who recently got on the phone and made international calls to help you get visas!). It still isn't worth teaching here, is it?

[Jessy]

I thought that Ijustwannateach's article was an excellent summary of the teaching situation in Thailand. For some time I have felt that it would be very useful if somebody could put the last year or two into perspective - especially for those of us who are confused. However, I don't think that people should be put off altogether traveling to Thailand and trying to become a teacher, especially if they do have a degree, a TEFL qualification and they are able to get a CRB check in their country before they leave it (a CRB is becoming very common for many jobs). But yes, they do need to be aware that there are many more obstacles to overcome compared to previous years and that teaching is, in general, low paid.

Perhaps people alse need to consider that the situation is unlikely to improve until the present uncertain political climate that exists in Thailand remains unresolved. There seems to be a political feeding frenzy going on in the background at the moment and whatever the motives, eductaion along with other things has taken a back seat. Some of you may already know that there were recently two lectures given by eminent Thais in London, both at the same time, but on different sides of the city. One lecture was given by Suriyasai Katasila, who was a leader for The Campaign for Popular Democracy party - the person who helped organise the coup in Thailand. He spoke about his concern for his life. He and his assistant said they believed there will be another more violent coup in Thailand - in the near future. Indeed, the political situation is not yet resolved and the democratic elections have not taken place as promised. On the other side of London at the Institute of Strategic Studies the other lecture was given by Thaksin Shinawatra. His lecture was called, "Democracy at the crossroas". He urged reconciliation between the parties in Thailand and said he was willing to help the process. All very interesting.

And then we also saw on CNBC television there was the feature on Thailand that said that rented office space by foreign companies in Bangkok had fallen to 20% - companies are pulling out - a certain indicator of the lack of confidence that companies have in Thailand at the moment.

For everyone there is uncertainty and confusion about the future, and teachers are no exception. I hope the situation improves.

[Whitey]

Whitey, if you don't mind telling us, it would be good to know what incredible problems some teacherscan have, even when they're very experienced, and savy in the ways of ThaiTEFL and other-country TEFL, and you've said you work for a good school (who recently got on the phone and made international calls to help you get visas!). It still isn't worth teaching here, is it?

It's been very crazy and I won't go into all of them, well maybe I will.

Most outrageous problem:

Crossing the border out of Thailand. A nice gentleman stamped me out of Thailand and then went to stamp my youngest son out(my wife was in the Philippines). He kindly told me to go to the overstay office to notate that my 3 year old didn't have to pay a fine(standard operating procedure) so off I went. I waited several minutes for an extremely intelligent man to finish his food and stamp my son's passport. He opened the passport to the current entry stamp and saw a previous notation about no fine and said that since it was previously stamped, he wouldn't stamp it again.

I was very confused since his use of English was so good and mine is very weak. After a few minutes of him saying thoughtful words about foreigners, my mother, and my intelligence level, I finally understood what he was saying. He thought that I had previously got the stamp from the office and then didn't get an exit stamp out of Thailand. I decided that I would show him the exit stamp on the previous page. I don't know what made him upset about seeing the exit stamp, but he slapped me on my arm several times, threw the passport away and began saying more thoughtful words about foreigners, my mother, and my intelligence level.

The kind gentleman who stamped me out of Thailand was doing his level best of smiling at me and hoping that his supervisor would smile as well. Especially since he knew my school quite well, but no luck, more thoughtful words about foreigners, my mother, and my intelligence level came forth from the supervisor's mouth. I think it was past the cue to offer a special payment for all the extra work the supervisor needed to do.

At this point, the extremely intelligent man decided it was in his best interest to take into custody the offending dangerous criminal and proceeded to detain my 3 year old son. When I tried to raise an objection, I was told that since I was stamped out of Thailand, I must leave Thailand right now and that I was not allowed to be in Thailand. Knowing the facts, some would call this kidnapping, but in Thailand, it is protecting the Kingdom of Thailand from dangerous criminals. When I protested, I was informed that a payment would be accepted then and there to release my son. Some would call it ransom, but that's far from the case in Thailand. 20k baht was the agreed upon figure. I asked for a receipt, but they were unwilling to provide one. I needed to submit for reimbursement to my school, but extremely intelligent man was not willing to provide one.

I was allowed to proceed on my way. Upon re-entry several days later, I was told that my son had used up his 90 days in 180 days but they eventually let him in, but that's on another thread and easy to deal with.

As you can see many problems. Penang won't easily issue a Non-immi O to a 3 year old. My local immigration office won't extend a non-immi 0 for a 3 year old, their words, not mine. Basically, if you got kids, they can ransom them at the border. That's reason enough not to live in Thailand.

Next Problem:

I work at a good school. They provided me with all the paperwork last October to get my wife an Non-iimi 0 in Penang. All the changes in immi happened then. I went down and Penang wouldn't issue her the non-immi O. Instead they issued her a tourist visa and told her to sort it out in Thailand and that the immi office in our city, 1000km from Bangkok, would change it for her. Ok. Came back and they laughed and said no dice. You can do it in Bangkok.

It has become virtually impossible to get a visa for dependents in Thailand. My way around it? When the tourist visa ran out, my school had the idea of giving her all the paperwork as if hiring her as a teacher and send her down to get a Non-immi B in Penang. The local immi office said no problem, they could change the non-immi B to an O and extend her to a year. Then the criminal background check came out in the first week of January.

All of a sudden, she needed to get a CRB from the Philippines. No problem, just fly to the Philippines. But she did 30 day crossings from January to March when she went to the Philippines. The Thai Embassy in Manila won't issue the visa without some special paper from the Philippine government. Great, she just went to Malaysia where I would meet her.

We were going to meet in Malaysia to get the visa, but since I don't like traveling with too much cash and since the extremely intelligent man relieved me of much of my budget(and knowing the rules about needing to show 20k when crossing the border), I decided not to take a chance and come back to Thailand to get more cash from the bank to pay for the visa run the school was going to reimburse us(yes my school is a good school and was more than willing to pay the visa run for my wife!).

Because they said if my son left he wouldn't be able to enter Thailand for 90 days, my wife had to go back to Penang alone so much for my planned one week vacation on the beach in Penang.

It's just too much of a hassle. My school is awesome, I think it's one of the best in Thailand and the two mods here know enough to know that I know what I'm talking about. They're doing their best, it's a famous school with enough connections to get anything done locally, but still they can't deal with the massive amount of BS that immi and others are dishing out. It's ridiculous.

Don't come to Thailand to teach. It's just to crazy to deal with things now. Even with a good school who backs me up, it's hard to deal with the bs. As a professional teacher with 9 years of teaching experience, this is just unacceptable.

I'm not posting this as a warning to others or to ask for advice. I'm just posting it to tell others what I have dealt with.

I don't need advice because I already know the best way to deal with these problems, just leave Thailand. There is nothing, short of leaving, that we can do to change Thailand for the better. Others aren't so lucky, they have Thai wives, Thai girlfriends, Thai boyfriends, Thai children or other compelling reasons to stay in Thailand and have no choice but to just lean over and take it. If you're not already in one of those groups, don't come, because odds are you will be soon enough.

[PeaceBlondie]

Good report, Whitey, of an incredibly difficult experience. I almost laughed myself off the chair at Whitey's self-deprecating evaluation of his own English being so inferior to the Thai Immigration Police officer. Many of the posters on ThaiVisa and other expatriate forums would have gone criminally berserk if they had gotten stamped out of a country and some official imbecile was kidnapping and ransoming their 3 year old child. Many TV posters would have gone criminal. As the father of six, only my absolute commitment to non-violence would have kept me from harming any living thing, but I would have been sorely tempted to turn over the money-changer's tables in the temple and scare out the livestock with a whip, shouting all the while. And maybe doing 85,000 baht damage to the real estate!

Note: Whitey kindly sent me a PM authorizing the mods to delete anything that seemed over the top. However, after reading it, I thought Whitey was exceptionally graceful to describe the officer as an extremely intelligent gentleman!

We know enough about Whitey's background in several countries, as an EFL teacher, to trust his report. Remember, even though he posted at my request, he's not asking for advice, and we needn't disbelieve the report.

Now, who wants to raise a family here and teach English? Especially since Whitey's school treats him better than 99% of the employers in this Land of Similies and kidnappers?

[engrin]

Would the Thai media have any interest in a story like Whitey's? Autonomously would be best if possible. How many Thais are aware of this sort of thing.

[Whitey]

When my wife was exiting Thailand through Sadao on her way to Penang alone, her van passengers all got nice rude treatment, they were asked to pay money to get the stamp out(100 baht each) and had their passports throw to them. As she was walking away from the window, there was a shift change and one of the officers left his box with a plastic bag full of money, some coins dropped on the ground. He looked at them and walked on. Seems loose change didn't even matter to him, just the bigger bucks.

If a fellow was into conspiracies, he might think the border posts are given free rein by the government to increase revenue in exchange for allegiance, but I know that's not the case. Every baht collected is helping to make the Kingdom of Thailand a stronger nation and I'm happy to pay my part to help the betterment of Thailand.

Others may not be as helpful as I am. Those less helpful souls may want to avoid teaching in Thailand until a newly elected government is in place that provides some, IMHO unneeded, accountability to government ministries.

Why am I still in Thailand? I managed to get hired by a school that has great students and an awesome Thai director who really cares about education and my family. It took me 5 years in Thailand to find this job, including 2 years of doing monthly border runs. Under the current environment, I couldn't have got where I am today.

[Ijustwannateach]

Whitey, your story is amazing- sorry to hear you had to go through all that. Just another example of why it's a good time *not* to come to Thailand to teach.

[El Taco Loco]

Whitey, what happened to you was horrible. Easy for me to say this, as I was not you.... but I would have left my son and called the embassies and accused them of kidnapping and ransom. I am evil enough to have done that.

We need more teachers like you. This country is loosing a lot of good ones. Personally, I am still thinking about Korea. 6 years here and I am getting burned out with the hypocritical smiles that this place gives out.

I also agree with PB.

Great post, Whitey. Hang in there. You have a great family to take care of.

[Jimjim]

I've heard horror stories about Korea as well. I don't think it's some promised land. Some schools promise a bonus if you complete your contract and then "fire" you 2 weeks before your contract is up so they don't have to pay up. This happened to a friend of mine and I had heard of it happening by reading accounts on a certain famous Thailand teachers job website.

However, the money is better and the visa process is easier I think.

Go to Japan, the money's great and the visa process is quite easy. But of course it's quite expensive.

[Whitey]

I've heard horror stories about Korea as well. I don't think it's some promised land. Some schools promise a bonus if you complete your contract and then "fire" you 2 weeks before your contract is up so they don't have to pay up. This happened to a friend of mine and I had heard of it happening by reading accounts on a certain famous Thailand teachers job website.

Thanks for the support, Sniperteam.

Jimjim, in Thailand, it is not uncommon for a school to let you go at the end of March when your contract is through the end of April so they can avoid paying you for April and any promised bonus. Or the famous trick that when you don't sign a new contract then at the end of your last month, they just don't pay you. These are tricks schools everywhere try to pull. So why deal with these antics in a place that pays peanuts.

[El Taco Loco]

I don't want to hijack a thread with a Korea subject. But I agree with Whitey. Better to get screwed in a place that pays well as opposed to a place that does not. And their labor office is very very efficient. I am well versed in the issues in SK. It is no Shangri-La, true.

[engrin]

Taiwan is fantastic. Great pay. No less than 600 / hour. The more you work, the more you make. Easy to buy a car, motorbike, open a bank account..

[Jimjim]

If it's better to deal with BS and not get paid peanuts, then go to Japan, like I mentioned.

[Jessy]

Jimjim, engrin and sniperteam6, I would be grateful if you could respond to the new topic posted by me and titled, Alternatives to Teaching in Thailand. Must appreciated.

[Whitey]

Since this thread is about the ever changing rules for teachers, I figured this is the appropriate place to put this.

My school has hired all of its teachers for the coming year, anubahn, prathom and mattayom. All cool, right? They thought they had teachers with the right qualifications to get them work permits. Hah! They have just been notified that their Anubahn teachers need 15 credits in Early Childhood Education or a TEFL certificate specially tailored for young learners or something else. Even they were having a hard time figuring out the requirement.

New requirements all the time and no warning.

[engrin]

Sounds like your school didn't pay the "tea money", I believe that's what it's called here in Thailand!!

[garro]

Aussiestyle said

But, as long as the MOE thinks a Nursing, Business, IT, Aeronautical Engineering or any other teaching un-related degree qualifies you to be a teacher here, well good luck to the Thai students!

Actually a nursing degree can be very useful for teaching as a large part of the program is devoted to this subject. Nurses spent a lot of time providing patient teaching and have to regulary present teaching sessions for their peers and other professionals. Nurses are also trained to work with children and have been strictly cleared to work with them. I would argue that it is relevant to teaching but feel free to disagee.