4 Month Old Bangkaew Biting His Tail

[tartempion]

Hi,

We bought a two months old bangkaew withouth nowing anything about this race.

She is 4 months now and started chasing her tail some 10 days ago. I have seen such behavior before in dogs and did not worry too much, but yesterday she started biting her tail. It evolved in a bloody mess and I brought her to a vet 40km away.

She got a shot, some pills and how is it called? a plastic thing I would call a "lampadaire" in French which must make it impossible to bite her tail.

This morning she is in pain and turns mad around trying to get at her tail.

Any clues and help appreciated.

Thanks

[November Rain]

Did the vet tell you what was wrong, in his opinion? It sounds like he has given her either steroids or NSAIDs, as he must think that the biting is due to itching or pain in the tail. From what you've said, this might be correct. It could be a parasite allergy, a yeast or fungal infection or other skin infection. He has probably also given her antibiotics, to stop infection in the wounds she has caused by biting herself.

Tail biting, or pulling out hair can also be caused by stress or boredom, but your dog's case sounds more like itching. The "Elizabethan Collar" will stop her doing it, but many dogs hate having them on, so that could be increasing her stress at the moment. I'd give her a few more days on the medicine & see if she improves. Alternatively, if you can take photos of her tail & post them, maybe BambinA will be able to see what the problem is & help out.

I don't think her breed is a factor in this (although I could be wrong...)

Good luck.

BTW, certain skin conditions can be caused by food intolerances or dietary problems, or made better by giving supplements. What do you feed her?

[tartempion]

Had the wife talk to the vet this morning (I went there alone yesterday) Vet tells she is itching and gave meds to this effect, but the dog is most certainly in pain caused by the biting. Wife gave a SARA tablet!!!??? (painkiller) and she is relieved sand leeping right now. She is doing well with the collar except the need to bite her tail, she walks around drinks and eat almost as withouth the collar.

Food: she refuses dry dog food (Pedigree for puppets or anyting else we tried) and eats rice with whatever the wife adds there: meat, vegs; she also eats fruits; apples, bananas etc.

She used to sleep outside in a metal cage at night, but we had the house fully walled not so long ago (two weeks max) and since she sleeps free outside, mostly on the house steps. I wonder if she might be affraid at night and showing this behavior since.

We had her sleep in the house last night, with all the stress related to her problem.

The vet talked about cutting her tail if the problem persists!!!!

I never would cut the tail of a dog....

[bina]

keep her busy playing with toys; distract her when she starts with the tail business; we had a post previously about 'hot spots'; bangkaews have lots of fur so the tail is the prime target....

keep her de flea'd (comb her with a lice comb; at the moment dont use flea sprays or drops)...

google: hot spots plus dogs for more info

if boredom or a habit,then break the habit: different toys, long walks (more tired, less bored), attention when she's not tail chasing (distract with fun things, dont yell at her to stop chasing her tail)

and of course, a good vet check .... check rest of her body

1.for round sores (fungus like ringworm);

2. red weepy sores where fur is thick (u have to part her hair and really look, not just external glance at fur);

3.lay her on her back and check stomach/genital area for black 'dots', these are flea shit, means she has fleas;

4. have her checked for mange (super common in thailand; its just a skin scrape for a look under a microscope)

try aloe vera on spots that itch also; perhaps prednisone if its allergy/allergic itching or cortison creams mixed with antibiotics; if tis fungus than anti fungal and no prednisones....

u can use ibrofen or other NSAID not acamol (paracetamol) !!! on dogs; or aspirin can be used.

bina

[quiksilva]

SARA I think is a brand of paracetamol.

[Gary A]

Food: she refuses dry dog food (Pedigree for puppets or anyting else we tried) and eats rice with whatever the wife adds there: meat, vegs; she also eats fruits; apples, bananas etc.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Off topic but my dog HATES Pedigree dry dog food. His favorite was Strongheart from Tesco Lotus but it appears they changed the formula and not for the better.

[November Rain]

Might help to add a spoonful of vegetable oil (like sunflower oil) or some oily fish like mackerel to her diet. Oil can help the skin & coat.

[tartempion]

Update:

She was in pain the first 48h after visiting the vet.

Yesterday it was more itching.

She has no fleas or other vermine

Today she is better, but still attacks her tail sporadically.

She sometimes can reach her tail nonobstat the collar.

I have medication for 2 more days, will see then.

Cutting off her tail, is that really an option?

[November Rain]

I'm no vet, but I can see no reason why the tail would need cutting off for this. From everything you've said, it sounds like some form of skin infection/allergy/hotspot type thing. If she had this problem on her leg, would the vet be suggesting you cut the leg off? I really hope that what he said was misunderstood by your wife. Perhaps he was talking about cutting off the hair on the tail (rather than the tail itself), or something, to make cleaning easier?

[elfe]

as your dog has no skin rash or fleas there at his tail it seems like a behavioral or psychological problem. many reasons for that, also boredom. but it could be a damage in his brain causing the auto-aggressiveness. i have read about a dog which started to attack one of his hindlegs after his dogmate had died another dog started to chew his tail when being left alone at home. maybe do a search on this with google or ask in a real dog forum, there are more experts or people with similar experiences on this to be found with some advice. there are ways to protect the tail with a bandage made of curlers for hairdressing, you need the right size.

[elfe]

also a 4 months young puppy should not stay alone outside all night, it is still a baby and needs lots of attention and belongs to its pack which is you. being left alone much at this age can result in behavior problems or aggressiveness, also to people...

[bina]

the only time i know about cutting off tails (amputation) is on large dogs like great danes that split the tips of their tails over and over again and repeatedly damage the bone. even my boxer, with her clipped off tail sometimes gets a split in er stub if she bangs it when roughhousing outside.

every time your dog starts to chase her tail, try to divert her attention with a toy or even just tossing something somewhere else (it gets her attention w/o her associating tail chasing with toys/fun)...

and keep on with medication; once the physical problem is cleared u can work on the psychological parts; some dogs chew their feet causing a circular problem of itching/infection/behavioral chewing which causes the sores etc...once her tail is better, u can also try using bitter apple (if it still exists?) or something else meant for animals (show dogs for instance get stuff put on areas of body to keep from licking/mangling hair set up) that tastes bad so will also prevent her frm licking...

bina

[tartempion]

Update:

most certanly physical after tail biting, itching and black spots.

The vet doubled anti-itching meds and gave cream to treat the underside of her tail.

Meds and cream improve situation, will need one week more to evaluate results.

Thanks to all.

I read it could be genetic behaviour in 4 to 6 months old puppets.

When given food she went agressive against her tail, possibly seeing competition....and then she started chasing her tail frequently.

I don't think she is bored, she has plenty of toys and I play and go walking in the rice fields with her.

[November Rain]

Good to know. Keep us posted

[bina]

never heard of a dog behavior pattern like this; chickens do that to their toes!! when they are hatchlings, thinking its worms...

what is genetic behavior??? there are genetic predispositions to certain types of behaviors which are physiologically based; and there are conditioned behaviors that start off as accidental behaviors and develop into neurotic type behaviors (like tail or paw chewing)... and there are rage syndroms, and fainting syndroms among certain breeds which are genetic (dobermans for example)but are physiologically caused by a genetic problem (fainting goats another example that comes to mind; they became a breed!!)

[Nienke]

Update:

most certanly physical after tail biting, itching and black spots.

The vet doubled anti-itching meds and gave cream to treat the underside of her tail.

Meds and cream improve situation, will need one week more to evaluate results.

Thanks to all.

I read it could be genetic behaviour in 4 to 6 months old puppets.

When given food she went agressive against her tail, possibly seeing competition....and then she started chasing her tail frequently.

I don't think she is bored, she has plenty of toys and I play and go walking in the rice fields with her.

Hi tartemptation,

That's not a nice problem you describe here.

Amputation of the tail is certainly not my first thought, as it is still unknown what exactly causes the tail chasing. I think a veterinarian who jumps so quickly to such a very drastic conclusion without giving the dog a full body check (blood test, tissue test, etc etc) does not work in the benefit of the dog (and the owner). And it is certainly not in favor of the well-being of the dog . If this problem is not physical, than amputation is not the solution at all. You even may end up with a dog that keeps on chasing an imaginary tail.

However, you are mentioning 'black spots'. This I find a bit a frightening remark, because one cause of black spots can be insufficient blood supply due to a circular problem, resulting in dying off of tissue. That's a serious problem, although I just read about a similar problem and there might be a cure for that in stead of amputation.

Anyway, what ever the cause, if the med's don't work really, I think its better to find another vet who is willing to check your dog more intensively.

To understand if it is a psychological problem, first all physical possibilities must be ruled out, such as ant, tick, other insect or grass seed that has irritated the skin, making the dog bite the tail in such an extent that a hotspot occurred. These spots are pretty painful and can itch. This results in more licking and biting. Are the black spots becoming bigger, is there case of necrosis around the black spots, is the wound open, is the possibility of maggots in the wound ruled out, etc?

It's important to understand where the dog is biting: on the tail onset, the tip of the tail, somewhere in the middle? And how the dog is biting: is it really chasing its tail (meaning going around in circles after the tail), or is it more biting and licking at a certain spot on the tail.

Are there specific times, when the dog shows this behavior? Does the dog shows the behavior only when you are around, or also when you are not around? What is the behavior of you and your wife (and/or care-takers) just before and after the dog shows this behavior? What is the frequency and the duration of the behavior?

What are your previous attempts to stop the behavior; veterinary treatment, punishment, distraction through play etc. And what is your reaction on the dog when this behavior occurs?

When did the dog receive the last vaccinations and when did the behavior start?

How easy or difficult is it to distract the dog when it shows this behavior?

How is its behavior when eating? Food protection/aggression?

A close-up picture of the wound (especially the black spots) can be of help, plus a pic or small VDO of the behavior when it occurs.

If you PM me with most detailed information, then I can see what I can do for you.

After all, a 4 months old little puppy should be happily and healthily a complete pain-in-the-butt to its owners with its lovely playfulness, chewing on shoes and destroying the garden and not showing any of this kind of behavior ... And Bankeaws can be very nice dogs! At the moment I have two in boarding and one mix, all absolutely lovely dogs and adored by their owners (and vice versa).

Nienke

[tartempion]

Nienke,

Thanks for your concern.

In fact my gf remembered me the tail chasing problem started after she had a problem with a long white flat worm coming out.

The dog was in pain and she helped with the worm. We went to see 3 vets, the first obviously not happy when we requested de-worm meds but he had to oblige, the second diagnosing itching and providing meds, but metionning the possibility of cutting her tail of if problem persisted and a 3d vet also advising tail cutting and doing it fast before she grows adult....

In fact one or 2 days after my previous post (18 or 19 this month) I acquired a second dog from a farang in the village who has 10 dogs!!!! I will refain from commenting on ths (!) A no brand name dog, also 4 months old. I have been warned that might be a bad idea, bangkaews being "extremely" possesive towards their boss. I did consider many times she might need company, a play partner. At the same time I found she had enough meds and het tail did not show any dammage from her biting any more, the biting having decreased considerably and limited thanks to the Elizabethian "lampadaire"

The 2/3 first days did not show an improvement in regard with het tail chasing/biting, but it was not too bad neither and mainly late afternoon and when food was around. Our land is newly built and has lots of sand around, she enjoys playing in wet sand and getting dirty. We also are wondering if the sand (or vermine in the sand) could be a cause of the itching.

Then after 3 days with the new dog that tail chasing almost ended, I took of the collar ans observed her behavior. At first she was mad sometimes at the new dog, but now they play a lot together, time for food also has improved a lot, teh agression is minimal. It seems they have a good time together. The gf decided to shampoo the dogs every 3 days, and the feel happy after a bath also. I gave them both Frontllne against ticks and flees also.

What exactly caused this problem we will never discover, and what cured it neither. It seems having two dogs is better than one, for all of us. Sometimes at feeding time she shows her teeth looking at her tail (I do reprimand her then) but nothing more.

We now hope to have good times with both dogs.

Thanks again for trying to help us.

[Nienke]

Nienke,

Thanks for your concern.

In fact my gf remembered me the tail chasing problem started after she had a problem with a long white flat worm coming out.

The dog was in pain and she helped with the worm. We went to see 3 vets, the first obviously not happy when we requested de-worm meds but he had to oblige, the second diagnosing itching and providing meds, but metionning the possibility of cutting her tail of if problem persisted and a 3d vet also advising tail cutting and doing it fast before she grows adult....

In fact one or 2 days after my previous post (18 or 19 this month) I acquired a second dog from a farang in the village who has 10 dogs!!!! I will refain from commenting on ths (!) A no brand name dog, also 4 months old. I have been warned that might be a bad idea, bangkaews being "extremely" possesive towards their boss. I did consider many times she might need company, a play partner. At the same time I found she had enough meds and het tail did not show any dammage from her biting any more, the biting having decreased considerably and limited thanks to the Elizabethian "lampadaire"

The 2/3 first days did not show an improvement in regard with het tail chasing/biting, but it was not too bad neither and mainly late afternoon and when food was around. Our land is newly built and has lots of sand around, she enjoys playing in wet sand and getting dirty. We also are wondering if the sand (or vermine in the sand) could be a cause of the itching.

Then after 3 days with the new dog that tail chasing almost ended, I took of the collar ans observed her behavior. At first she was mad sometimes at the new dog, but now they play a lot together, time for food also has improved a lot, teh agression is minimal. It seems they have a good time together. The gf decided to shampoo the dogs every 3 days, and the feel happy after a bath also. I gave them both Frontllne against ticks and flees also.

What exactly caused this problem we will never discover, and what cured it neither. It seems having two dogs is better than one, for all of us. Sometimes at feeding time she shows her teeth looking at her tail (I do reprimand her then) but nothing more.

We now hope to have good times with both dogs.

Thanks again for trying to help us.

Aha, now you have two shoe-garden-laundry-and-whatever-else destroyers to fully enjoy

Thanks for your update. I appreciate that.

I don't understand what these vet's reasoning is for suggesting to amputate the tail. A bit of a drastic decision.

I'm not sure what you mean with the long flat worm; coming out of her bump? If that's the case that it's possible she went more after her bump than her tail.

If it was a worm out of her bump, please, keep in mind that one time deworming will only kill the adult worms and not the eggs. It is then advisable to deworm after 10 to 14 days again, and sometimes even for a third time.

Long flat worm sounds to me as a tapeworm. It is best to get some feces to the vet (a fourth one?) and have it checked under the microscoop, then they can give a specific deworm pill for that what shows up in the sample.

It is also possible that your dog had a small wound on the tail itself and maggets came in it. These little buggers can do a lot of damaged if not treated in time. If this is the case, better to keep a good eye on the wound and on your dog's behavior. When she still keeps on being bothered by her tail, it is possible there are still maggets.

Wish you a lot of joy with your two four-legged kids

Nienke

[Tufty]

try aloe vera on spots that itch also; perhaps prednisone if its allergy/allergic itching or cortison creams mixed with antibiotics; if tis fungus than anti fungal and no prednisones....

Do you know where I can buy Aloe Vera in Thailand, its good for us too

[cmsally]

I had a dog that did exactly the same as this - but didn't attack his tail but his backside near the tail. So cutting the tail definitely not an option as he could just start further down. We checked for everything , powders shampoos, deworming, but in the end turned out to be totally behavioural. Even though we have a large garden he hated being confined. If we let him out he would go for miles but would always come back, you would see him miles away from home on a mission somewhere. If he was allowed to do this he was OK. If he was made to stay at home he was not OK.

But as he got older he calmed down and didn't go so far so I guess it was a case of excess energy/attention deficit syndrome between about 1-3yrs old.

[coventry]

Hi,

We bought a two months old bangkaew withouth nowing anything about this race.

She is 4 months now and started chasing her tail some 10 days ago. I have seen such behavior before in dogs and did not worry too much, but yesterday she started biting her tail. It evolved in a bloody mess and I brought her to a vet 40km away.

She got a shot, some pills and how is it called? a plastic thing I would call a "lampadaire" in French which must make it impossible to bite her tail.

This morning she is in pain and turns mad around trying to get at her tail.

Any clues and help appreciated.

Thanks

I have a Bangkaew, by coincidence, and mine did the same thing. I took it to the vets as it had done much damage to it's tail. He explained the dog had a hot spot and gave it some tablets and cream. This didn't work so I put anti nail biting solution on it's tail and it stopped. By the way I want to say, maybe it's just mine, but this has got to be the hardest breed of dog in the world to train. It's more laid back than the natives