Animal Welfare Standards

[JungleBiker]

I was on the campus of Khon Kaen University yesterday looking at some of their more unusual livestock and was very dismayed to see how badly the animals were being treated, especially as the university has a Faculty of Veterinary Medicine. For example:

(1) An ostrich is walking around with a broken wing hanging down and no apparent treatment as been given.

(2) A sheep has front hooves (toe nails?) that need trimming, they are currently about 8 inches (20 cm) long and curled up in the air. The sheep is not able to walk normally. It also appears to be a wool sheep (rather than a tropically adapted hair sheep) with a very thick wool coat that has not been sheared dispite the very hot weather and no shade has been provided.

(3) Deer are being raised in a fenced enclosure that lacks any green pasture for grazing. The floor is just dirt/dust. (I once learned from a leading deer farming expert that deer (being wild animals) should be raised extensively on irrigated pasture with trees to provide shade).

However I am not a livestock specialist so there were probably other problems that I did not notice. Perhaps Tim could ask his wife to find out what is going on.

Just looking out for the animal's welfare.

JB

[Lickey]

Just looking out for the animal's welfare.

And im sure the majority of Thaivisas members are with you on this JB, its totally inhumane!!!

[Maizefarmer]

I was on the campus of Khon Kaen University yesterday looking at some of their more unusual livestock and was very dismayed to see how badly the animals were being treated, especially as the university has a Faculty of Veterinary Medicine. For example:

(1) An ostrich is walking around with a broken wing hanging down and no apparent treatment as been given.

(2) A sheep has front hooves (toe nails?) that need trimming, they are currently about 8 inches (20 cm) long and curled up in the air. The sheep is not able to walk normally. It also appears to be a wool sheep (rather than a tropically adapted hair sheep) with a very thick wool coat that has not been sheared dispite the very hot weather and no shade has been provided.

(3) Deer are being raised in a fenced enclosure that lacks any green pasture for grazing. The floor is just dirt/dust. (I once learned from a leading deer farming expert that deer (being wild animals) should be raised extensively on irrigated pasture with trees to provide shade).

However I am not a livestock specialist so there were probably other problems that I did not notice. Perhaps Tim could ask his wife to find out what is going on.

Just looking out for the animal's welfare.

JB

You bet JB - I don;t think she can do much about it, but I certainly will raise that with her - I will present it to her as an observation made by an informal farang visitor who is writing his observations up on the internet, and is thinking of adding some "pictures".

You didn't by chance notice anything out of order with respect to the research cattle (that would bounce back from where-ever straight to her desk). Her ladyship he is always giving me a lecture about animal husbandry - I will take great delight when I get home on Friday night drawing this to her attention.

Nice one - thanx JB

MF

Edited April 26, 2007 by Maizefarmer

[JungleBiker]

You bet JB - I don;t think she can do much about it, but I certainly will raise that with her - I will present it to her as an observation made by an informal farang visitor who is writing his observations up on the internet, and is thinking of adding some "pictures".

You didn't by chance notice anything out of order with respect to the research cattle (that would bounce back from where-ever straight to her desk). Her ladyship he is always giving me a lecture about animal husbandry - I will take great delight when I get home on Friday night drawing this to her attention.

Nice one - thanx JB

MF

Hi MF,

Thanks for backing me on this one. I was a little worried that you might take my post the wrong way and get defensive on behalf of your wife (though I am not implying that she is personally responsible). I hope she can take some action to put things right. After all this is a leading university where some of the nation's brightest people should be learning the professional way to raise livestock, etc.

No, I didn't look at the cattle, only the more unusual livestock which are on display right next to one of the back roads that runs parallel with the main entrance road from the airport road.

I was with a friend from New Zealand and he had his camera. I asked him to take some pictures to back up my report. I hope he will email them to me soon and I will post them here.

Best regards,

JB.

P.S. Off topic, but also kind of surprising to see at a leading university... they have one roundabout on the campus and it seems few people know the correct way to use a roundabout - they nearly all give way to people coming from the left not the right! I have seen several accidents and was almost hit a couple of times myself. I see they have now posted signs at the roundabout with clear writing (in Thai) telling everyone to give way to traffic from the right, but it seems nobody can read because they continue to do it all wrong! As Bernard Trink used to say, TIT.

[PhilHarries]

I too have been appalled by the level of cruelty inflicted on animals by virtue of the disgusting conditions they are kept under and also the level of neglect. This state of affairs sadly is also demonstrated at some of the temples and I just can't get to grips with the way strongly Buddhist people, who would not kill, treat animals so badly.

PS on the off topic subject. You should take a trip down to Pattaya and watch the antics at the dolphin roundabout. Sheer anarchy.

But the USA must be the only country where they have a traffic circle at a four road intersection and then install traffic lights so that only one stream of traffic enters the circle at any one time (Flemington circle, NJ).

[Maizefarmer]

You bet JB - I don;t think she can do much about it, but I certainly will raise that with her - I will present it to her as an observation made by an informal farang visitor who is writing his observations up on the internet, and is thinking of adding some "pictures".

You didn't by chance notice anything out of order with respect to the research cattle (that would bounce back from where-ever straight to her desk). Her ladyship he is always giving me a lecture about animal husbandry - I will take great delight when I get home on Friday night drawing this to her attention.

Nice one - thanx JB

MF

Hi MF,

Thanks for backing me on this one. I was a little worried that you might take my post the wrong way and get defensive on behalf of your wife (though I am not implying that she is personally responsible). I hope she can take some action to put things right. After all this is a leading university where some of the nation's brightest people should be learning the professional way to raise livestock, etc.

No, I didn't look at the cattle, only the more unusual livestock which are on display right next to one of the back roads that runs parallel with the main entrance road from the airport road.

I was with a friend from New Zealand and he had his camera. I asked him to take some pictures to back up my report. I hope he will email them to me soon and I will post them here.

Best regards,

JB.

P.S. Off topic, but also kind of surprising to see at a leading university... they have one roundabout on the campus and it seems few people know the correct way to use a roundabout - they nearly all give way to people coming from the left not the right! I have seen several accidents and was almost hit a couple of times myself. I see they have now posted signs at the roundabout with clear writing (in Thai) telling everyone to give way to traffic from the right, but it seems nobody can read because they continue to do it all wrong! As Bernard Trink used to say, TIT.

er.... traffic arrangements!!! Nope, that's definetaly not something for her.

Oh yes please - photos please! She's in a shitty mood with me - I woke her up at 2am Friday morning (oh - I didnt mention, I had to go the way back to LA last Monday and she's cocked up my return flight - women, typical!) - so anything to stir the pot is welcomed.

Thanx

MF

[JungleBiker]

er.... traffic arrangements!!! Nope, that's definetaly not something for her.

Oh yes please - photos please! She's in a shitty mood with me - I woke her up at 2am Friday morning (oh - I didnt mention, I had to go the way back to LA last Monday and she's cocked up my return flight - women, typical!) - so anything to stir the pot is welcomed.

Thanx

MF

Hi MF,

Sorry to hear about problems with your return flight.

I don't want to be the cause of any family feuds, but I just got the photos from my NZ friend and will try to post them now...

JB

[Maizefarmer]

Nice one JB - I'll chase it up with the other half when I get back home in the morning.

Bit embrarrasing - Thailands top ag school and there are animals walking round like that! Lets see what KKU have to say.

MF

[Khonwan]

I studied cattle husbandry there (Kamphaengsaen) for 5 days several years ago and have been back many times since. Their cattle always looked great.

I suspect these animals pictured are probably located at the animal hospital there. If so, those animals could have come from any part of Thailand and may be undergoing treatment. I once took a very sick Brahman bull there. Apart from the cost of drugs, treatment is free.

[ozzydom]

I studied cattle husbandry there (Kamphaengsaen) for 5 days several years ago and have been back many times since. Their cattle always looked great.

I suspect these animals pictured are probably located at the animal hospital there. If so, those animals could have come from any part of Thailand and may be undergoing treatment. I once took a very sick Brahman bull there. Apart from the cost of drugs, treatment is free.

I agree with Khonwan,there is most probably a logical explanation for the condition of the animals in question,they may be used as examples to students of the effects of neglecting livestock. pasture is extremely hard to maintain in LoS and deer ,like sheep are hard on pasture at the best of times.

[JungleBiker]

I studied cattle husbandry there (Kamphaengsaen) for 5 days several years ago and have been back many times since. Their cattle always looked great.

I suspect these animals pictured are probably located at the animal hospital there. If so, those animals could have come from any part of Thailand and may be undergoing treatment. I once took a very sick Brahman bull there. Apart from the cost of drugs, treatment is free.

Hi Khonwan,

Khampaengsaen is a campus of Kasetsart University (KU, located in Bangkok) not Khon Kaen University (KKU).

You could be right that the animals are in a hospital, but I really doubt it. I think these are the animals that KU puts on show during the annual agricultural fair at the end of January. Anyhow, we may find out soon from MF what is the background of these animals.

JB.

[JungleBiker]

I agree with Khonwan,there is most probably a logical explanation for the condition of the animals in question,they may be used as examples to students of the effects of neglecting livestock.

That's probably the excuse that we will hear from KU.

pasture is extremely hard to maintain in LoS and deer ,like sheep are hard on pasture at the best of times.

Establishing a pasture may be difficult sometimes, what with seedbed preparation, weeding, etc, but I think once it's established then maintaining is not so difficult. Just put on some fertilizer and water, but the main thing is to have a proper stocking rate, e.g. don't try to stock 10 animals per hectare if it can only support 4.

In any case, just a few hundred meters from the deer pen at KU is a big field full of grass (probably ruzi), so KU certainly has no problems growing the stuff. I think they use that field to produce either hay or silage for their cattle. Problem is that if they wanted to raise deer in that field, they would have to spend a lot of money on building a proper deer fence. They'd also need to put in irrigation to keep the grass green and growing all year round. It's obviously much cheaper to keep a large number of deer in a small pen. The problem then is that deer raised in such poor conditions will grow more slowly, be less healthy, have a higher mortality rate and have lower fertility/reproductivity.

I have a lot of information on how to properly (and profitably) farm deer (and antelope) in Thailand. A good friend of mine gave this information to me about 15 years ago. He was an expert in wildlife management - aged about 70 (but still going strong), had a Ph.D. and had worked around the world (Africa, Asia, Alaska, etc). Around that time he had a big deer park (Furzeland) in England. He bred his deer to produce large trophies (large sets of antlers). One of his deer was in the Guinness book of records for having the largest number of points on its antlers. He sold his herd to a NZ company and then came to retire in Kanchanburi in Thailand. He helped a former president of BAAC to establish a small deer and antelope farm on his resort there. I have pictures which show how well he managed the pasture and the herd (and also have pictures he gave me showing how deer are usually raised in Thailand - in appalling dust bowls just like at KU).

Unfortunately my friend was killed a few years ago - while driving his car a motorcyclist pulled out of a side road in front of him; my friend tried to swerve to avoid the motorcyclist, but both he and the motorcyclist died in the accident. What a waste of a brilliant guy.

JB.

Edited April 28, 2007 by JungleBiker

[Khonwan]

I studied cattle husbandry there (Kamphaengsaen) for 5 days several years ago and have been back many times since. Their cattle always looked great.

I suspect these animals pictured are probably located at the animal hospital there. If so, those animals could have come from any part of Thailand and may be undergoing treatment. I once took a very sick Brahman bull there. Apart from the cost of drugs, treatment is free.

Hi Khonwan,

Khampaengsaen is a campus of Kasetsart University (KU, located in Bangkok) not Khon Kaen University (KKU).

You could be right that the animals are in a hospital, but I really doubt it. I think these are the animals that KU puts on show during the annual agricultural fair at the end of January. Anyhow, we may find out soon from MF what is the background of these animals.

JB.

Yes, I mistakenly thought you were referring to KU. I note, however, that you are now referring to KU in your follow-on reply to ozzydom - I presume you meant KKU.

Having never been to KKU, I can't comment on the conditions there, however, with regards to poor pasture, this should not be too important if, as I presume, the animals are being fed concentrates and cut forage.

Rgds

Khonwan

[bina]

our spotted deer are also on dirt only flooring/enclosure; they get clover hay as feed. all the zoos i have been to, keep their spotted deer the same way. the grazing is not a problem if they get self feed hay. and they have lots of room to move. i can say with definite experience that a round enclosure is best (we had several accidents due to square enclosures as deer run straigt in to fencing even if marked and the round fencing just has them moving until they stop by themselves. like a horse in a round menage. and yes, we are approved by the natl wildlife society that gives liscenses. our deer are all males, extras from an other israeli zoo (too many dominant males). they get cut forage and concentrates as needed also.

the sheep seems to be a fat tailed sheep (mediterranean type) but not sure from pic hard to say. it looks like what we call baladi and yes should be sheared but if not, no problem as fits with hot conditions (although not humid) we raise those also . they deal better then other breeds when not sheared. btw, most of our sheep are woolly sheep although not raised for their wool as much as for either milk or meat. they are a general purpose sheep, the baladi fat tail. they do fine in the desert. (assaf/awasi mix with baladi). (now everyone is in to marino or dropper (sp).)

the feet: AWFUL and will need to be clipped every week for the next few months plus antibiotics probably. although i must point out that we have one goat that has one toe that goes elf-shoe style (the actual medical slang for this tye of hoof) and it is rather difficult to maintain it trimmed .

ostrich: we too had an emu with a broken wing: the big zoo vet said: it stays that way. no problem, no need to mess with it if the animal is eating then not in pain. just asthetic and bothers the onlookers.

but again, hard to tell w/o seeing up close and personal.

bina

btw, where is that deer farm in kanchanaburi? i once sent an email to get info as i was doing a project on the sambar deer (a thai deer) and never got a reply, nor do i find their site anymore on the net. am curious.

Edited April 28, 2007 by bina

[JungleBiker]

Yes, I mistakenly thought you were referring to KU. I note, however, that you are now referring to KU in your follow-on reply to ozzydom - I presume you meant KKU.

Hi Khonwan,

Yes you are right - I'm getting myself muddled up! I meant KKU.

Having never been to KKU, I can't comment on the conditions there, however, with regards to poor pasture, this should not be too important if, as I presume, the animals are being fed concentrates and cut forage.

Rgds

Khonwan

Well I did see the remains of some cut forage lying on the ground, so that is part of their diet, but I don't know what else they are getting and if the quality and quantity is sufficient. But my friend insisted that they do much better on pasture and lower stocking rates. We are not talking about domesticated livestock here and he said the trick to successfully raising wild animals in captivity is to mimic their natural environment as closely as possible. One of the many benefits of his system was that he didn't need to use antibiotics and stuff for treating parasites like intestinal worms. Those deer crowded into a small paddock are much prone to becoming infected with parasites, etc.

Regards,

JB.

[Khonwan]

Yes, I mistakenly thought you were referring to KU. I note, however, that you are now referring to KU in your follow-on reply to ozzydom - I presume you meant KKU.

Hi Khonwan,

Yes you are right - I'm getting myself muddled up! I meant KKU.

Having never been to KKU, I can't comment on the conditions there, however, with regards to poor pasture, this should not be too important if, as I presume, the animals are being fed concentrates and cut forage.

Rgds

Khonwan

Well I did see the remains of some cut forage lying on the ground, so that is part of their diet, but I don't know what else they are getting and if the quality and quantity is sufficient. But my friend insisted that they do much better on pasture and lower stocking rates. We are not talking about domesticated livestock here and he said the trick to successfully raising wild animals in captivity is to mimic their natural environment as closely as possible. One of the many benefits of his system was that he didn't need to use antibiotics and stuff for treating parasites like intestinal worms. Those deer crowded into a small paddock are much prone to becoming infected with parasites, etc.

Regards,

JB.

If KKU is as good as KU (and I fully suppose it is), I'm confident that the nutritionalists there know their stuff and formulate the correctly balanced feeds on campus. With regards to feedloting v. pasturing, beef-cattlemen continue to argue on the same point. Also, the issue of stocking rates is really only relevant if the livestock are relying on pasture grazing. I agree that more antibiotics and deworming are required for closely-confined livestock but would argue that this does not pose a problem to livestock, keepers, or consumers when applied properly (and "properly" doesn't equate to greater difficulty).

I too would rather see livestock in their natural environment but economics tend to dictate against this.

Rgds

Khonwan

Edited April 28, 2007 by Khonwan

[Maizefarmer]

Mystery solved - they are not KKU animals - except the deer.

No descion has been madre regards the Ostrich but the chances are it's going to be slaughtered. The sheep will have it's toe nails trimmed. The deer all have a bad case or some or other parasitic worm and are undergoing treatment.

MF

[JungleBiker]

our spotted deer are also on dirt only flooring/enclosure; they get clover hay as feed. all the zoos i have been to, keep their spotted deer the same way. the grazing is not a problem if they get self feed hay. and they have lots of room to move.

Hi Bina,

I am not saying you cannot raise deer in a dust bowl, i am only telling you that according to my friend (and I believe him) this is not the best way to raise deer. "Best" meaning from the deer's point of view. Khonwan is suggesting that a feed lot type operation for deer is more profitable than an extensive grazing system; he may be right but without some actual costings to prove it I am not convinced. My friend used to emphasize that deer and cattle cannot be treated in the same way because deer are wild animals and cattle are domesticated; they respond differently to being held in confinement.

the sheep seems to be a fat tailed sheep (mediterranean type) but not sure from pic hard to say. it looks like what we call baladi and yes should be sheared but if not, no problem as fits with hot conditions (although not humid) we raise those also . they deal better then other breeds when not sheared.

So you do agree that besides clipping its toe nails its wool ought to be sheared. Last week we had temperatures around 38 - 40 degrees C. I reckon the sheep should also be provided with shade. I am not a sheep expert and may be wrong but based on what I have read before (I was once contemplating raising sheep) I reckon it is a wool sheep and that wool sheep are not suitable for raising in the tropics (unless at high altitude). Hair sheep are better adapted to the tropics.

btw, where is that deer farm in kanchanaburi? i once sent an email to get info as i was doing a project on the sambar deer (a thai deer) and never got a reply, nor do i find their site anymore on the net. am curious.

It was in the grounds of a resort in Saiyoke. He had a few species, but don't think he had any sambar. I'll dig out an address and phone number later for you. My friend's wife was taking care of the deer when I spoke to her a few years ago, but don't know if she still is.

Best regards,

JB.

[Khonwan]

Khonwan is suggesting that a feed lot type operation for deer is more profitable than an extensive grazing system; he may be right but without some actual costings to prove it I am not convinced.

Land cost, fencing cost & maintenance, pasture maintenance.

Rgds

Khonwan

[bina]

thanx...

our deer arent food, just on exhibit and there is no pasture land in israel after april; no rains. therefore, any animals that arent foragers native to the area get hay including goats that are native, if u want to get a good amount of milk. our pasture season is short and i dont know anyone that grows pasture for grazing, its all types of hay etc for bales...

yes, should be sheared but ours arent always either; and we are desert heat... the alpaca suffers more it seems, so we provide him with a pool (kiddy pool) that he can lay in, or we just hose down the whole goat/sheep area and whoever wants, can lay in damp dirt, or on cooled down concrete (their indoor floors)... alpacas dont get wet no matter how much u hose one down. i hand shear so their fleece never very short anyway.

we shear in end of may although today its already 27 outside. btw, sheep bunch together to stay cool, at least here. was explained that that provides less area directly exposed to sun... and our desert sheep are wool sheep (not great wool like merino but wool non theless). interesting to note that they dont always lay in shade anyway.

dont knowck yourself out for the address was just curious as had to do project for the big zoo course and wanted to do exhibit for sambar deer (we were allowed unlimited funds and resoursces on paper, it was just an excercise)

[JungleBiker]

Khonwan is suggesting that a feed lot type operation for deer is more profitable than an extensive grazing system; he may be right but without some actual costings to prove it I am not convinced.

Land cost, fencing cost & maintenance, pasture maintenance.

Rgds

Khonwan

...versus land cost (for forage production) + machinery/labour/fuel for harvesting forage + concentrates + phamaceutical/veterinary costs to control worms, etc + reduced productivity (slower growth, lower fertility, higher mortality).

Best regards,

JB.

[JungleBiker]

thanx...

our deer arent food, just on exhibit and there is no pasture land in israel after april; no rains.

Well in that case I wouldn't go to Israel to start I deer farm!

dont knowck yourself out for the address was just curious as had to do project for the big zoo course and wanted to do exhibit for sambar deer (we were allowed unlimited funds and resoursces on paper, it was just an excercise)

Didn't knock myself out, but the resort is/was called Pung-Waan Resort, Saiyok, Kanchanaburi 71150.

Tel/Fax 034-634-108. My friend was raising Indian Muntjac (Muntiacus muntjak) and Chital (Axis axis) - the latter is called Kwang Dao (star deer) in Thai.

Best regards,

JB.

[Khonwan]

Khonwan is suggesting that a feed lot type operation for deer is more profitable than an extensive grazing system; he may be right but without some actual costings to prove it I am not convinced.

Land cost, fencing cost & maintenance, pasture maintenance.

Rgds

Khonwan

...versus land cost (for forage production) + machinery/labour/fuel for harvesting forage + concentrates + phamaceutical/veterinary costs to control worms, etc + reduced productivity (slower growth, lower fertility, higher mortality).

Best regards,

JB.

I've raised hundreds of head of livestock here; pastured and feedlot. I know what I'm speaking of, first hand. But I sense an argument so shall gracefully withdraw and leave you to your second-hand opinions.

Rgds

Khonwan

[bina]

spotted deer = chital deer =axix axix

thanx...

not raising for meat... just have four boys that were extrs at a an other zoo needing placement and our area met the requirements...

graceful guys, they eat out of my worker's hand but run when they see someone strange... they get the same food as our goats plus some concentrate and cut forage (carob branches/leaves are a big fave as are almond branches)...

oops: thanx for finding the address for me...they dont exist anymore? shame, cause i noticed that they had a whole petting zoo type set up on their internet site... would have liked to visit when next in thailand (ages from now at this rate)...

bina

Edited May 2, 2007 by bina

[Maizefarmer]

I guess feedlot -versus - free range, comes down to the farming model you adopt. I feedlot all my cattle, even though I have the space to let them pasture graze.

Why?

Better growth rates, easier to monitor general health, easier to manage - overall better margins and better profit -period, no question about it - and I'm convinced that at least as far as Thailand goes, this is the best model to adopt for the conditions we have in this country. That doesn't mean they don't get a chance to free range. They do -the feedlot opens onto a 70 rai field. Should they want they can wander from the the f/lot onto the field whenever they wish. At night in summer they tend to collect in loose groups in the field to stay cool, but other than for this time, and when they want to cool down in the rain,they spend all day (summer) under the raised roof (feedlot) to stay cool, and winter nights, to stay warm.

The feedlot area is about 80% concreated and slopped towards a 40cubic meter slurry pit - so it has another advantage: collection of manure - used for bio fuel and fertilser.This is another issue, but the point is it ties in with the farming model I have adopted.

If anyone can show me a fee range model for the land I have and the head count I have, that can demonstrate better livestock health and better economics (for Thailand conditions) versus using a feedlot - well, I'd be very interested indeed. I don't believe it's possible, and by the same token it would think much the same criteria would apply in respect of deer (on the same scale) - but not knowing my arse from my elbow on th subject of deer, I may well be very wrong. The wife (who admitts deer farming is not her plus point) is also inclined to think that feed lotting in Thailand would be the way to go with deer (at least on a comparable scale). As with cattle, it enables much higher productivity of the land.

There is nothing negative in use of antibiotics in any kind of livestock farming if husbandry rules are adhered to. That must of course mean that if you are using meds to constantly control disease which is occuring because something is wrong with the husbandry technique/model (e.g. overstocking the feedlot for the space avalible, leading to uncleanliness. leading to parasites and disease - then of course, that would be a no-brainer i.e. doit properly and you shouldn't have to use any more meds in a feedlot enviroment than you would be using in a more natural freerange enviroment.

That's my take on it - comments/input from others?

MF

Edited May 2, 2007 by Maizefarmer

[JungleBiker]

Khonwan is suggesting that a feed lot type operation for deer is more profitable than an extensive grazing system; he may be right but without some actual costings to prove it I am not convinced.

Land cost, fencing cost & maintenance, pasture maintenance.

Rgds

Khonwan

...versus land cost (for forage production) + machinery/labour/fuel for harvesting forage + concentrates + phamaceutical/veterinary costs to control worms, etc + reduced productivity (slower growth, lower fertility, higher mortality).

Best regards,

JB.

I've raised hundreds of head of livestock here; pastured and feedlot. I know what I'm speaking of, first hand. But I sense an argument so shall gracefully withdraw and leave you to your second-hand opinions.

Rgds

Khonwan

Hi Khonwan,

No, I am not looking for an argument.

To change the subject slightly, do you have any interest to get involved in raising beef cattle in Laos? (How about you MF, did you ever make contact with the Italians?).

Best regards,

JB.

[Khonwan]

Khonwan is suggesting that a feed lot type operation for deer is more profitable than an extensive grazing system; he may be right but without some actual costings to prove it I am not convinced.

Land cost, fencing cost & maintenance, pasture maintenance.

Rgds

Khonwan

...versus land cost (for forage production) + machinery/labour/fuel for harvesting forage + concentrates + phamaceutical/veterinary costs to control worms, etc + reduced productivity (slower growth, lower fertility, higher mortality).

Best regards,

JB.

I've raised hundreds of head of livestock here; pastured and feedlot. I know what I'm speaking of, first hand. But I sense an argument so shall gracefully withdraw and leave you to your second-hand opinions.

Rgds

Khonwan

Hi Khonwan,

No, I am not looking for an argument.

To change the subject slightly, do you have any interest to get involved in raising beef cattle in Laos? (How about you MF, did you ever make contact with the Italians?).

Best regards,

JB.

Hi JungleBiker - okay, sorry for jumping to my conclusion.

No, I've no interest in doing any sort of business that takes me away from my home. I had a very good business (not farming related) in Bangkok that I gave up some three years ago. But thanks for asking.

Rgds

Khonwan

[Maizefarmer]

JB

Yes I did touch base with the Italians - the rest is history - it went no-where because I went to hospital for 4months!

Now I don't have the time, at least not for the rest of this year. Turn you rback on your farm for a day (never mind sevral months!) and you suddenly have a ton of work to do. So I sumply heven't the time. Anyhow I did get from them a letter in return outlining their business plan. As to what they have done since, I haven;t a clue. Do you know what they are doing now?

MF

[JungleBiker]

on the subject of deer, I may well be very wrong.

Hi MF,

Thanks for your comments. Regarding cattle I don't dispute that the feedlot approach can be more profitable than the pasture grazing system. But for deer it may (or may not) be a different story, so yes you may be wrong, but on the other hand you and Khonwan may be right.

There is nothing negative in use of antibiotics in any kind of livestock farming if husbandry rules are adhered to. That must of course mean that if you are using meds to constantly control disease which is occuring because something is wrong with the husbandry technique/model (e.g. overstocking the feedlot for the space avalible, leading to uncleanliness. leading to parasites and disease - then of course, that would be a no-brainer i.e. doit properly and you shouldn't have to use any more meds in a feedlot enviroment than you would be using in a more natural freerange enviroment.

I think you have touched on a key point here. To be successful (whether it be for cattle or deer) the feedlot system must be properly managed. What my deer farming friend found when he visited many deer farms in Thailand about 10 - 12 years ago was that many (all?) of the feedlot systems being used by those farms were badly managed (i.e. poor hygiene, inadequate nutrition, health problems, no breeding system, etc). Therefore his pasture grazing system probably was superior to those feedlots. However, if a deer feedlot was as well managed as I believe your dairy farm is then perhaps it would be a totally different story, i.e. well managed feedlots for deer could be the way to go.

By the way, many thanks for giving us some feedback on the background of those animals at KKU. I hope next time I visit things will be looking better.

Cheers,

JB.

[JungleBiker]

JB

Yes I did touch base with the Italians - the rest is history - it went no-where because I went to hospital for 4months!

Now I don't have the time, at least not for the rest of this year. Turn you rback on your farm for a day (never mind sevral months!) and you suddenly have a ton of work to do. So I sumply heven't the time. Anyhow I did get from them a letter in return outlining their business plan. As to what they have done since, I haven;t a clue. Do you know what they are doing now?

MF

Hi MF,

Yes I suspected that you may have contacted them just before your accident. I haven't been in touch with them for a while too. I heard they had done some trials producing tomatoes during the dry season. They were aiming to eventually produce dried tomatoes for export to Italy. I also received news from the Vientiane Times last week that they are promoting cassava production (i.e. contract farming with local farmers) for export to China but with plans to eventually establish a cassava-based ethanol factory in Laos. I just wrote to the Italian manager yesterday, but have not received a reply yet.

JB.