Chiang Mai Vs Chaingmai

[chanchao]

Or Wiang Phing, which is an existing alternative name. Mostly folks from around the countryside would just call it 'wiang'. :-)

[stevehaigh]

Chiang Rai is more properly pronounced Chiang Hai by locals. : )

would it be "Chiang Lai" since 'R' always comes out as 'L'. That's what my GF calls it (but she's from petchaboon)

[meadish_sweetball]

Chiang Rai is more properly pronounced Chiang Hai by locals.  : )

would it be "Chiang Lai" since 'R' always comes out as 'L'. That's what my GF calls it (but she's from petchaboon)

Nope, the "L" and "R" confusion is something else, and occurs all over Thailand. What Johpa means is that the city of Chiang Rai is actually *called* Jiang Haai in the Northern language.

As in Lao, there is no "ro reua" (ร) sound in Northern Thai. It is in many cases replaced with ho nok huuk (ฮ). Thus, raai = haai.

[stateman]

would it be "Chiang Lai" since 'R' always comes out as 'L'. That's what my GF calls it (but she's from petchaboon)

Sometimes Thais corrupt the R into L, either for speed, convenience or whatever.

Some Chinese-Thai use L because most Chinese can't pronounce R (it is not in their vocab.)

Most Thai would pronounce it with a perceptible R, even when corrupting it. Those who corrupt it into a pure L is rather rare. But then, if a Thai corrupts it into a pure L, when among friends, it is acceptable, as it is recognized that the person CAN do it right if desired.

On the other extreme, many female newscasters pronounce with such a distinct and perfect R that often it borders on being "unreal", as normal daily use isn't pronounced so distinctly.

[PeaceBlondie]

In the remote northern province where I taught, I told my students I was going to Shanghai [in China] and they thought I was saying "Chiang Mai" in northern dialect.

[mangkorn]

would it be "Chiang Lai" since 'R' always comes out as 'L'. That's what my GF calls it (but she's from petchaboon)

Sometimes Thais corrupt the R into L, either for speed, convenience or whatever.

Some Chinese-Thai use L because most Chinese can't pronounce R (it is not in their vocab.)

Most Thai would pronounce it with a perceptible R, even when corrupting it. Those who corrupt it into a pure L is rather rare. But then, if a Thai corrupts it into a pure L, when among friends, it is acceptable, as it is recognized that the person CAN do it right if desired.

On the other extreme, many female newscasters pronounce with such a distinct and perfect R that often it borders on being "unreal", as normal daily use isn't pronounced so distinctly.

I wouldn't say that corruption is rare, but rather quite common. Witness: "a-lai?" for "a-rai?" and "mai bpen lai" instead of "mai bpen (a)-rai"

That is understandable - apart from the Chinese, it seems that Isan/Lao uses the L sound a lot (e.g. the word for "hot," etcetera.). But what is very strange is that sometimes some people actually also corrupt the L into R - I have heard this a few times, and am completely baffled as to why.

[meadish_sweetball]

Agreed mangkorn, corruption is very common in the spoken language.

The /l/ into /r/ is known as hypercorrection. To understand what happens, we need to separate the written and spoken language. The written language makes a clear distinction between ล and ร, but in the reality of the spoken language (outside of the classroom) they are interchangeable. Since we all learn to speak before we can read and write, most Thais grow up in an environment where the same word seems to have two pronunciations, one with /r/ and one with /l/. As all children do, they mimic their elders and start to speak the same. Result = /l/ and /r/ are interchangeable, or is always pronounced as /l/.

However, when they start school, their teachers tell them to distinguish between the two sounds, in the same way as they are distinguished in the written language.

(Many teachers have a problem doing so themselves, but it does not stop them from trying to tell the kids to do it right). So the vast majority of kids keep speaking with a blurry distinction between the two sounds, albeit now aware that in formal communication, they should make an effort to trill their ร. This can be stressful, and when they try to trill the ร, the ล sounds often get trilled as well (remember that their linguistic logic and real-life experience tell them that these sounds are one and the same, not two different ones.)

Comparable things happen with many French people who strive hard to pronounce initial /h/ in English, so much that they add /h/ in front of words that do not have any. Also note that many Swedes and Norwegians (lacking a /w/ phoneme in our own languages) tend to pronounce 'visa' and 'very' as 'wisa' and 'wery' - it is the same phenomenon at work.

[Niloc]

After reading this thread I rushed out to the kitchen and asked 'where is Chiang Hai', my wife immediately corrected me, 'you mean Chiang Rai', she went on to say Chiang Hai, Chiang Rai, same-same.

My wife is from Pai so naturally speaks the Northern dialect...

Fascinating, I really wish I could speak correct Thai..

Colin

[jumnien]

Ithink"Chiangmai"isbetter,noneedtoseparatewordsinThailand.

[mangkorn]

Agreed mangkorn, corruption is very common in the spoken language.

The /l/ into /r/ is known as hypercorrection. To understand what happens, we need to separate the written and spoken language. The written language makes a clear distinction between ? and ?, but in the reality of the spoken language (outside of the classroom) they are interchangeable. Since we all learn to speak before we can read and write, most Thais grow up in an environment where the same word seems to have two pronunciations, one with /r/ and one with /l/. As all children do, they mimic their elders and start to speak the same. Result = /l/ and /r/ are interchangeable, or is always pronounced as /l/.

However, when they start school, their teachers tell them to distinguish between the two sounds, in the same way as they are distinguished in the written language.

(Many teachers have a problem doing so themselves, but it does not stop them from trying to tell the kids to do it right). So the vast majority of kids keep speaking with a blurry distinction between the two sounds, albeit now aware that in formal communication, they should make an effort to trill their ?. This can be stressful, and when they try to trill the ?, the ? sounds often get trilled as well (remember that their linguistic logic and real-life experience tell them that these sounds are one and the same, not two different ones.)

Comparable things happen with many French people who strive hard to pronounce initial /h/ in English, so much that they add /h/ in front of words that do not have any. Also note that many Swedes and Norwegians (lacking a /w/ phoneme in our own languages) tend to pronounce 'visa' and 'very' as 'wisa' and 'wery' - it is the same phenomenon at work.

Excellent explanation, Meadish. Hypercorrection, yes. Thanks.