Farangs And Buddhism

[dukkha]

As a lapsed catholic I have found that Buddhism offers much more to me in a spiritual sense.

I am sure others have experienced the same. Are you willing to offer some insights into what has

made you change in your own spiritual life and if so, what is it that Buddhism has given you in this respect.

How do you view your interior life now, after spending time in a Buddhist environment..any reflections are most

welcome...Dukkha

[jumnien]

My sobriety journey started 12 years ago today in N. California, May 25th, 1995. At the edge of death from alcoholism/addiction to crack/heroin/valium you name it. The 4 noble truths gave me a framework to understand suffering, the cause of suffering, hope of release from suffering and a path to follow. Dhamma teachings from Jack Kornfield, Ajahn Jumnien and many others on a regular basis provided me with a "higher power" that was available in each and every moment.

Meditation and fellowship with others on a sober spiritual path gave me a peace of mind I had never known before. "We absolutely insist on enjoying life" became a mantra and a journey began that continues to this moment. I am so grateful for the hundreds of teachers I have had and the change that happened in my life since buddhism became a regular part of it. I am also glad that interfaith dialogue was such an integral part of the lives of all these teachers. They passed on an appreciation for every religion and spiritual path where before I only had judgement and resentment for them. The opening of the heart and the mind is a blessing!

[qualtrough]

I question the entire premise of having spent time in a 'Buddhist Environment' if you are indeed referring to Thailand. What passes for Buddhism here is an amalgam of animist, hindu, brahmin, etc. beliefs that would have the original Lord Buddha spinning at about 12,000 rpm in his grave, if he had one. While there is a disconnect between what a religion prescribes and the way it is practiced with all religions, I find the disconnect here quite great, and the tenets of the religion (philosophy more like) have not rubbed off on many to any appreciable extent. Lot of lip service though.

If you are looking for enlightenment I think you would get far more out of a book than you would absorb through the environment here. That being said, by whatever name it is called, I find the local religious beliefs have a less toxic effect on the population than the other major religious beliefs.

[rychrde]

Agree with the above. Buddhism here came from Sri Lanka, rather than what may seem the more obvious path across the Himalayas. The monks here know nothing of, say, tibetan buddhism and its rich library of spiritual texts and practices. They seem to dish out blessings and charms and a fairly simple moral code but do not, from what I've seen, give out much in terms of detailled meditations to really help people spiritually. From that point of view, it has been disappointing living in this buddhist country. But perhaps most people in most of the world have the same relationship to their local religion. It is part of the air one breathes so is taken for granted - we do not need to analyze every breath we take. On the good side, it does not have a very negative effect, but could really do more on the spiritual side.

One interesting thing is how syncretist religion is in Thailand, with buddhist statues rubbing shoulders with krishna, ganesh, local monks and talismans to ward off evil spirits. Thais seem unphased by this, saying that ultimately all the same.

rych

[camerata]

Religion can be divided into two broad categories: soteriological (concerned with salvation) and communal. Typically, the communal type develops first in a society. Gods have to be propitiated and rituals/sacrifices performed to ensure a good harvest, etc. It's a comfort in people's daily lives. Later, the salvation religion arrives and gives people hope for whatever comes after death.

Frequently, the two religions exist side by side because they perform different functions. Christianity and Islam may have eradicated most (but not all) of the old pagan communal religions, but they are very evident in Asia. In the Buddha's day the communal religion included both Brahminical rituals/sacrifices and animism. In today's Thailand it includes spirits, talismans, astrology, Hindu gods, former kings, and so on.

Then of course you get some crossover from one type of religion to another, such as the idea of Buddha images and Pali chants having a protective effect in daily life. Perhaps rural Thais simply think of the whole lot as "sacred belief" but I think making merit as recommended for lay persons in the Pali Canon and practised today in Thailand is distinct from communal worship in being aimed at salvation in another life.

[cdnvic]

I find that reading and worrying too much about what is written can lead people to looking to hard at what should be and missing what is. Everyone has their own path to a higher existence, and I doubt any two are alike.

[camerata]

How do you view your interior life now, after spending time in a Buddhist environment..any reflections are most

welcome...Dukkha

I don't think being in the Buddhist environment of Thailand has made much difference to me (except maybe teaching me some patience), but practising Dhamma and investigating how the mind works made me realise just how much of our dissatisfaction with life is caused by letting the mind/ego go its own way and dictate what we should do. Once I got a grip on that it was clear that freedom was the Buddha's message.

"Just as the great ocean has but one taste, the taste of salt, so this doctrine-and-discipline has but one taste, the taste of freedom."

- Udana V.5

[THAILIBAN]

Religion - the biggest lie of mankind

though, I have a respect for the Buddhist teachings, as it is a PEACEFUL thing.

[camerata]

Whenever I see the Carl Sagan movie, Contact, in the scene where Palmer says to Ellie, "So you think 90% of the people in the world are under some kind of mass delusion?" I'm always thinking, "YES!"

[dukkha]

May I thank those of you have made some thoughtful and intelligent replies to my original post..It was my intention to elicit some discussion especially from those of us who consider Thailand our home...Please feel comfortable to offer further thoughts, we can surely gain some positive insights through such discussions...and at no point am I setting myself up as some kind of authority on the subject, rather am hoping to learn from others what their experieced have been... Dukkha

[No beleeeeve!]

I learned about eliminating a step or two from my cognitive process. I notice that the "mai pen rai" attitude carries a level of acceptance for others. In the West, we see something or someone, then we identify, categorize, label and then place a judgement good or bad on that person or thing based on the label we attached.

Living in Thailand I noticed less of the latter steps of labeling and judging. I'm not saying it doesn't occur, just not as much in the West. I also felt a greater deal of tranquility while living there. Actually, for the first time in my life.

I think some of this is because of the Buddhist beliefs and/or cultural beliefs of the Thai people. Yes, there are extreme examples of the opposite nature. I know I didn't live in a tourist area and tried to learn the culture from those around me.

Just my two cents...

[sabaijai]

I learned about eliminating a step or two from my cognitive process. I notice that the "mai pen rai" attitude carries a level of acceptance for others. In the West, we see something or someone, then we identify, categorize, label and then place a judgement good or bad on that person or thing based on the label we attached.

Living in Thailand I noticed less of the latter steps of labeling and judging. I'm not saying it doesn't occur, just not as much in the West. I also felt a greater deal of tranquility while living there. Actually, for the first time in my life.

I think some of this is because of the Buddhist beliefs and/or cultural beliefs of the Thai people. Yes, there are extreme examples of the opposite nature. I know I didn't live in a tourist area and tried to learn the culture from those around me.

Just my two cents...

I have observed the same. Where Buddhism and Thai culture start and stop, where they overlap or diverge, is difficult to say.

[Brucenkhamen]

How do you view your interior life now, after spending time in a Buddhist environment..any reflections are most

welcome...Dukkha

I guess it depends on what you mean by "Buddhist environment", I wouldn't consider Thailand as a Buddhist environment. Sure the cultural aspects and history are there, there are aspects of the Buddhas teaching that are part of thai culture, but there are many aspects of thai culture that fly in the face of the Buddhas teaching.

Within Thailand there are places where you can practice the Buddhas path to awakening, as there are in the West these days. Having spent time in those environments I can say it has helped me to have a much more positive relationship with my experiences in life. Living in Thailand has also contributed to that by broadening my horizons and teaching me patience.

[cdnvic]

I find it helps you accept those little insights you get into life that come seemingly from nowhere. We get the idea in our formative years that if we haven't learned something from a book it has no merit. Understanding Buddhism taught me that those little flashes of intuition are what happens when your "booksmart" mind lets its guard down long enough to think freely.

[rychrde]

Iwasn't gonna add this, but after cdnvic comment about formative years I thought I'd share this.

I wish I'd discovered buddhism when I was about 8 years old - I probably would have been sent to a monastery if a tibetan - but then would have missed out on my scientific training, so never mind :-)

Having rejected my catholic environment at a very early age I questioned what made me... ME! What was it that made me see through my eyes and hear through my ears? What if inside my body was someone else? How would I know? What if the thoughts I was having were not mine? I could see in the mirror what I was, but that wasn't WHO I was.

Anyway, after much single-pointed meditation I managed to achieve this amazing state of ... transcendence. A mental shut-down but with just a consciousness remaining. I didn't faint. Perhaps I did, don't know. Was a wonderful state to be in :-) I didn't tell anybody as I kinda knew they wouldn't understand. Even worse, was the fear I would be taken to a priest I just didn't have the energy as a kid to tell them to their face that they were a waste of my time. So was rather stuck in a kind of isolation.

One interesting thing was that as I enjoyed being in that state I soon grew impatient and wanted to somehow fast-forward to it, rather than going through the meditation. It didn't work! Somehow I gradually lost the ability to tap into that state, and my academic studies took over. It was only many years later that I rediscovered that state and it made me both happy and sad at the years lost.

I don't necessarily advocate putting young children in monasteries, but there is nothing... nothing... in the west that could have dealt with what I was doing. That is the tragedy in the west - all brains and no mind. Maybe it will change... but I think only for a few who know where to go.

buddhism was not a discovery, but a recognition, for me.

rych

[garro]

I too was brought up as a Catholic until the age of fourteen/fifteen when I developed doubts which I could not resolve. Up until this I had been fairly involved in the church as an altar boy and someone who would regulary read at mass. Around this time I began practicing martial arts and this brought me in contact with meditation and Chinese Buddhism. I was immediately attracted to meditation. Buddhism answered questions for me that my other religion couldn't and I new the answers were correct because of the way they made me feel.

Like Mdeland I developed problems with alcohol during my twenties up until my early thirties when I began to put effort into Buddhist practice. I quit alcohol altogether at Wat Thamkrabok last year. After this I commited to daily meditation practice rather then the starting and stoping of my previous practice. Before that I was really a non-practicing Buddhist which is the exact same as a non-practicing catholic.

Buddhism has provided me with meaning, joy and peace in my life. I suppose people of other religions could say the same but Buddhism is what works for me.

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why do you post like this, take it as a warning, it may be flippant but stay with the integrity of the thread

[sutnyod]

For me it's different: I never say I am Buddhist, but all of my friends do. I end up hanging out in pagodas because these are the places I like (forest monasteries), have very good Buddhist friends, run into very high level Buddhist scholars and all this of course is absorbed in a way. I do recognize the fact that before calling myself a Buddhist I would have to be much more serious. Keeping the precepts is no problem, but the self-discipline... To make a long story short: something drives me towards Buddhism, but it is not me. Friend's (Buddhist) explanation that would also answer the question of the OP:

Karmic connection

[cdnvic]

For me it's different: I never say I am Buddhist, but all of my friends do. I end up hanging out in pagodas because these are the places I like (forest monasteries), have very good Buddhist friends, run into very high level Buddhist scholars and all this of course is absorbed in a way. I do recognize the fact that before calling myself a Buddhist I would have to be much more serious. Keeping the precepts is no problem, but the self-discipline... To make a long story short: something drives me towards Buddhism, but it is not me. Friend's (Buddhist) explanation that would also answer the question of the OP:

Karmic connection

There's no score card that tells you you've passed all the requirements to be a Buddhist. A monk maybe, but real Buddhism is as individual as your fingerprints.

[Grover]

There's no score card that tells you you've passed all the requirements to be a Buddhist. A monk maybe, but real Buddhism is as individual as your fingerprints.

The score card goes as follows:

Do you take refuge in the Buddha ? tick

Do you take refuge in the Dhamma ? tick

Do you take refuge in the Sangha ? tick

which is called the triple gem and from what I know it constitutes the basic "requirements to be a Buddhist".

I don't see how anyone who does not implicitly or otherwise take refuge in the triple gem can call themselves Buddhist.

[cdnvic]

Orthodoxy is boring

There's more to the discovery of one's soul than reciting verses.

[Grover]

Orthodoxy is boring

There's more to the discovery of one's soul than reciting verses.

It is odd that Buddhism puts so many people to sleep although its real purpose is to awaken people.

[cdnvic]

How can I pursue what is real when I'm just doing what I'm told to do according to third hand reports of what someone who may have existed said, rather than look at real truths revealed to my own eyes?

[IMA_FARANG]

Orthodoxy is boring

There's more to the discovery of one's soul than reciting verses.

It is odd that Buddhism puts so many people to sleep although its real purpose is to awaken people.

As our moderator said above

"Just as the great ocean has but one taste, the taste of salt, so this doctrine-and-discipline has but one taste, the taste of freedom."

- Udana V.5

Which is a wonderful thought, but I would replace the last word with Awakening to make it this:

"Just as the great ocean has but one taste, the taste of salt, so this doctrine-and-discipline has but one taste, the taste of Awakening."

- Udana V.5

[Grover]

How can I pursue what is real when I'm just doing what I'm told to do according to third hand reports of what someone who may have existed said, rather than look at real truths revealed to my own eyes?

If the teachings of the Dhamma are consistent with the truths revealed to your own eyes, then it seems perfectly reasonable to follow this line, or path, for as far as it will take you.

Countless people have succeeded with and verified the truth of the Dhamma for themselves. Surely they all can't be making up stories.

[cdnvic]

How can I pursue what is real when I'm just doing what I'm told to do according to third hand reports of what someone who may have existed said, rather than look at real truths revealed to my own eyes?

If the teachings of the Dhamma are consistent with the truths revealed to your own eyes, then it seems perfectly reasonable to follow this line, or path, for as far as it will take you.

Countless people have succeeded with and verified the truth of the Dhamma for themselves. Surely they all can't be making up stories.

Tell me of one of them, and how this was verified?

[jumnien]

Ajahn Jumnien; verified by his smile!

To seek proof of another's happiness is to forsake one's own.

[Grover]

How can I pursue what is real when I'm just doing what I'm told to do according to third hand reports of what someone who may have existed said, rather than look at real truths revealed to my own eyes?

If the teachings of the Dhamma are consistent with the truths revealed to your own eyes, then it seems perfectly reasonable to follow this line, or path, for as far as it will take you.

Countless people have succeeded with and verified the truth of the Dhamma for themselves. Surely they all can't be making up stories.

Tell me of one of them, and how this was verified?

Dhamma verified from experience.

There are many instances in the suttas.

[cdnvic]

Dhamma verified from experience.

There are many instances in the suttas.

All mythology until experienced or observed. Are there no examples since then?

[camerata]

For those who haven't seen it, Ajahn Jagaro gave a nice talk called, "Am I a Buddhist?"