Bad Dogs

[sceadugenga]

I did my very best to kill two German Shepherd dogs tonight. They belong to my Farang neighbour and he opens his gate three or four times a day and lets them run free on land belonging to my wife. Three times last year they went onto adjoining land and nearly killed a cow each time. Each time the neighbour paid the owners off, he says they're not really bad dogs.

Tonight they got my little dog, being walked on the lead by me. Fortunately I had my heavy hardwood walking stick, I'm nearly 2 meters tall and about 120 kg of fairly old muscle.

I used to go ocean fishing and I've killed large sharks and pelagic fish with a single blow to the head with a similar weapon. The reason I couldn't get a decent head shot in tonight was they were over my dog, a third their size. I still did considerable body damage and they fled yelping.....WITH THE LITTLE DOG IN HOT PURSUIT!!!

He's ok, a little blood around the penis hopefully not internal bleeding.

The neighbour's a member here so, here's the story Rob if you see this. Next time I follow them onto YOUR land and finish them off.

Shouldn't post now, I'm furious and my old heart is still pounding.

[Mossfinn]

Hi sceud,

I can never normally condone the beating of an animal, however, I cannot see what else you could have done.

Your dog was not the aggressor and you had every right to hit them, considering yours was even on a lead!!

A suitable exchange with the owner is in order I believe.

Hope all the dogs are fine particularly yours.

Good Luck

Moss

[elfe]

i'm sorry for what you and your little dog had to experience

i can fully understand your feelings and action.

i will never understand why owners let their beloved (?) dogs run around freely, even after several damage was done.

as i always say, if you let your dog(s) roam freely, be prepared to expect all sorts of misery!

i wish you could convince the owner to keep his two gsd's safe and spend some time and effort to walk and occupy them by himself in the future...

[sceadugenga]

Thanks people, I've cooled off a bit now and the dog's running around ok.

He's been asked, begged and ordered to keep his dogs under control. They are intelligent dogs and have never had a moments discipline or training in their lives.

I'm sorry, I've never subscribed to "there's no such thing as a bad dogs, just bad owners" theory, and next time I'll do what I have to do to make sure my dogs safe. For God's sake, I walk him on the lead because he likes to chase the chickens!!!! And these cattle killers are running loose.

I come from a country where there is NO reprieve for dogs that "worry" stock under any circumstances.

[November Rain]

sceadunga,

I have every sympathy for you & hope your dog is OK. I think the thread is named wrongly, though. IMO, it should be "Bad owner". A lot of us, particularly in the work elfe & I do, have problem dogs. As a human and a responsible owner, it's up to us what we do about it. To let them roam is irresponsible & dangerous. The owner is the one really at fault here. There are bad dogs, but over 90% of the time, a dog is a problem due to his owner. Seriously. A change of owner to someone who gives a sh!t (& is willing to put in some work on the problem) can work wonders with a problem dog!

Edit - just thinking aloud, but if the owner had allowed his dogs to do these things where I live, they'd have been poisoned a long time ago. I've had dogs poisoned (in the confines of my garden or the center) for far less.

[chinthee]

Thanks people, I've cooled off a bit now and the dog's running around ok.

He's been asked, begged and ordered to keep his dogs under control. They are intelligent dogs and have never had a moments discipline or training in their lives.

I'm sorry, I've never subscribed to "there's no such thing as a bad dogs, just bad owners" theory, and next time I'll do what I have to do to make sure my dogs safe. For God's sake, I walk him on the lead because he likes to chase the chickens!!!! And these cattle killers are running loose.

I come from a country where there is NO reprieve for dogs that "worry" stock under any circumstances.

sceadugenga, I completely sympathize with you. I'm a dog owner and lover, and I understand all the behavioral reasons why untrained dogs will do this. However, it doesn't lessen the pain and perceived need for retribution or at least to stop the cause of the damage.

Let me tell you a story from my youth. My most dear childhood friend, my dog, was killed in my backyard by two of these similarly master-less dogs. They massacred the little spaniel and it was bloody and he suffered a long time. Luckily, my Dad and I were home, heard the cries and howls, and even though Patches was dead, our large back yard only had one entrance and exit. It was through a narrow driveway where our cars were parked. At 10 years old, I stationed myself on one side with my repeater winchester-style pellet rifle, and let loose. My dad was on the other side with a baseball bat. We gave those two dogs hel_l and their final exit was through my Dad as he thumped them as they passed him. They never came near our property again, but it didn't bring my pet back. I'm sorry to report that this act of violence and retribution did help to ease the pain of losing my beloved friend. So, do what you have to do to protect your dog, but do negotiate and plead with the owner first, try to get anybody to intercede, and issue a final warning, and failing that, be ready to take steps to do this before you lose your pet too.

[sceadugenga]

November Rain, I know about your work with dogs and respect you enormously.

Thanks for letting me talk this out, but there is no quick fix here.

The guy loves his dogs, I'd go as far as to say they are his only real friends. There is a dog and a younger bitch, she is the problem, she wiped out half the chickens in the village as a pup and is now the leader in their "wolf pack" activities. He lets them do as they please then buys his way out. He can't buy my dogs life, I'll see him tomorrow and he'll be contrite and sorry, he was there tonight and ran like a rabbit when he saw me coming.

He'll keep the dogs locked up for a few weeks then they'll be out again.

I'll take what ever steps I consider necessary.

[thaigerd]

We have 3 dogs but one rule from day one:

Our dogs are always on a lead!!!!!

So may times other dogs are trying to attack one of my dogs when walking with them, it's not nice.

Even my dogs are trained and socialized but they remain dogs........

Hope you and your neighbour find a good solution for that problem

Gerd

[sceadugenga]

Thanks people, I've cooled off a bit now and the dog's running around ok.

He's been asked, begged and ordered to keep his dogs under control. They are intelligent dogs and have never had a moments discipline or training in their lives.

I'm sorry, I've never subscribed to "there's no such thing as a bad dogs, just bad owners" theory, and next time I'll do what I have to do to make sure my dogs safe. For God's sake, I walk him on the lead because he likes to chase the chickens!!!! And these cattle killers are running loose.

I come from a country where there is NO reprieve for dogs that "worry" stock under any circumstances.

sceadugenga, I completely sympathize with you. I'm a dog owner and lover, and I understand all the behavioral reasons why untrained dogs will do this. However, it doesn't lessen the pain and perceived need for retribution or at least to stop the cause of the damage.

Let me tell you a story from my youth. My most dear childhood friend, my dog, was killed in my backyard by two of these similarly master-less dogs. They massacred the little spaniel and it was bloody and he suffered a long time. Luckily, my Dad and I were home, heard the cries and howls, and even though Patches was dead, our large back yard only had one entrance and exit. It was through a narrow driveway where our cars were parked. At 10 years old, I stationed myself on one side with my repeater winchester-style pellet rifle, and let loose. My dad was on the other side with a baseball bat. We gave those two dogs hel_l and their final exit was through my Dad as he thumped them as they passed him. They never came near our property again, but it didn't bring my pet back. I'm sorry to report that this act of violence and retribution did help to ease the pain of losing my beloved friend. So, do what you have to do to protect your dog, but do negotiate and plead with the owner first, try to get anybody to intercede, and issue a final warning, and failing that, be ready to take steps to do this before you lose your pet too.

Thanks chinthee, what an awful experience for a kid.

If I was into revenge I'd be up there now. I hope he learns from this, he has a big yard and even a swimming pool for the dogs but considers himself the "lord of the manor" here. He employs a number of my wife's family and thinks this can cover him when his dogs run amok.

Hey, I'm just starting to chuckle as I recall them yelping for home with the gutsy little feller in hot pursuit.

[macb]

THis is bloody sad and and unforgiveable in my book:

A Farang Neighbour with 2 GSD and has no control over his dogs how irresponsible is this person.

Let alone having no respect for his Fellow neighbour

Pleased you Dog is okay now

[November Rain]

Understand what you're saying sceadunga & you've got to do what you've got to do. I respect & understand that. I just don't think he should get away scot free when he's the main problem.

[sceadugenga]

Thanks macb, he's ok, trouble is he looking askance at ME, like he thinks he's going to get the stick as well. Getting lots of pats and body rubs. I'll take him up to the Khun Kon Falls for a run tomorrow, he loves it there.

November Rain, I really don't know what to do, the guys an idiot and not fit to own a gerbil.

[elfe]

tell your neighbour about that once again. so he won't be surprised if his dogs are dead or injured once he lets them bite yours again.

actually this is not normal behaviour either that the dogs once free on their own attack and try to kill cows and other dogs, they even have lots of space and pool in their own yard... i have 5 gsd's and many other dogs, none of them would act like that. ok the are better socialized than most other dogs as they are living in a huge pack, but still... these dogs must be more than bored and totally wrong socialized and trained, if at all. just my 2 cents...

[Nienke]

I'm so sorry for what happened sceadugenga.

I can fully understand your reaction. Because the first thing that comes up in the mind and gut is to protect your four-legged kid from danger and possible damage.

I also feel horrible for the two GSD's. After all, they can't help it that they have such a misfit of an owner.

It's really a horrible situation you are in.

Nienke

P.S. BTW, what does sceadugenga mean?

[sceadugenga]

I'm looking at the situation as a yesterday thing now, I suppose that after living in Thailand, and before that, Lao and the Philippines I'm just not used to coping with the sort of personal anger I felt last night. To me it's very much a Western emotion. (Dog rage??)

The guy got in his car and fled as soon as he locked the dogs up and came home after midnight. Perhaps he thought an immediate confrontation wasn't a good idea.

His dogs bark at mine every day, we live in a compound in rural Chiang Rai and the only way I can leave it to walk my dog in the village is past his front gate. The dogs go berserk, barking and leaping at the gate, my dog is definitely a "target figure" for them. The owner does nothing about this, even if he's outside. I'm going to suggest to him he keeps them in his backyard but the bitch can get out of there to the front anyway, she's highly intelligent and worked out how to get over one of the gates.

She is the instigator of the attacks but the dog leads them so as to speak, it's funny my dog used to play with them when he and the bitch were pups but now they see him on the outside, and they're on "their" turf he's become a threat.

Funny again, only last week I was thinking about reintroducing the dogs in a neutral environment and a controlled situation in an attempt to defuse exactly this type of situation. Not walking past their gate with my dog is not an option.

Nienke, sceadugenga is a very old Anglo Saxon name for a mythical creature that likes to roam around at night. I don't any more but the name fitted once.

[sceadugenga]

Thanks every one for your concern, haven't sighted dogs or owner since. Discussion with wife today and we are going to do some fencing that will deprive his dogs of the only open green lawn area around, outside his home and cause considerable inconvenience to all concerned ourselves included.

But at least our dog will be able to play outside unmolested.

[Nienke]

Nienke, sceadugenga is a very old Anglo Saxon name for a mythical creature that likes to roam around at night. I don't any more but the name fitted once.

Nice name, though

On a different note. If these GSD's like to chase and attack that much, your neighborhood should be very careful with children as well (and themselves). Maybe something to alert your neghborhood and the owner of the dogs'.

Nienke

[November Rain]

Thanks every one for your concern, haven't sighted dogs or owner since. Discussion with wife today and we are going to do some fencing that will deprive his dogs of the only open green lawn area around, outside his home and cause considerable inconvenience to all concerned ourselves included.

But at least our dog will be able to play outside unmolested.

Good move, but just two things:

1 You said the bitch can get over one of his fences, make sure she can't get over this one, or you could be creating a trap for your dog.

2 Nienke makes a very good point. These dogs could become a hazard for humans too. The owner really needs to start to take responsibility - even if that means he's forced to by the community.

Good luck.

[sceadugenga]

No problem, the family kids hang around all the time, they just target certain other animals

[Nienke]

No problem, the family kids hang around all the time, they just target certain other animals

I don't want to make you worry or come up with horror things, but I plead for caution here. These two dogs have shown already predatory aggression. This is the most dangerous aggression in dogs!

If, for whatever reason, a child (or an adult) becomes scared and starts to run and scream, the predator instinct can be triggered with most horrific results.

One example of a young girl who went to a dike with her two dogs and her girl friend. The dogs were known in the neighborhood as being the most lovely dogs and very good with children. One of the girl fell asleep and the other was playing a bit further away.

What most probably has happened was that while the girl woke up the dogs have nuzzled her (probably in a friendly manner). She started giggling and pushing the dogs away, while still lying on the ground. The dogs probably got aroused by this wrinkling around and the high-pitched giggling. The girl probably became scared and started screaming while pushing the dogs harder away in defence. The predator instinct got triggered and they attacked. The girl did not survive.

ALWAYS keep in mind, DOGS ARE DOGS with still a LOT of wolf instinct/behavior. And with these two i would be very careful. It might be it will never happen, but still you can better be careful then sorry.

Nienke

[Gary A]

I disagree with the theory that there is no such thing as a bad dog. A good friend of mine has a useless dog. I call him bucket because of the truck that come around trading plastic buckets for unwanted or bad dogs. His dog bites people and kills anything he can kill. He killed eleven of my wife's ducks. He has cost my friend quite a lot of money and my friend will not part with the dog. We have a VERY large Golden Retriever that would rather play than fight but he is willing to fight when he has to. My dog has had my friends dog down and trapped and holds him by the throat but doesn't clamp down. That stupid dog wants to fight each time despite having been put down every single time by my MUCH larger dog.

Bottom line is that dog should be destroyed. Any dog of mine that ever bit a child or killed fowl was destroyed. It happens but it shouldn't happen twice.

[solent01]

Scead, I would have been tempted to take the walking stick to the owner also. I had a similar thing happen not so long back, next doors 3 dogs attacked my Bangkaew, luckily he turned the table on them and saw them all off, but I saw a side of him that worries me, he simply went wild, anyhow, glad your dog was not harmed too bad.

[Jet Gorgon]

Build that high fence, Scea! If I were near you, I'd come over and let my tresses deal with this f**wit. The dogs will never be trained, so you are doing the right thing with the fence. Nobody else in the compound complains about these dogs?

As Nienke said, dogs have that wolf instinct. Even my old Lab, who never batted an eye and just growled if puppies or other dogs wanted to play with him, sat on his Thai canine brother and had him by the throat when little bro really ticked him off. Another time, a woman brought her 6-7 yr old son over; the kid was terrified of dogs. He went outside and my four dogs followed him as they always did with kids; the boy started freaking and even my Lab picked up on the fear and started snapping at him. Got the boy out of there instantly and scolded the dogs. So strange. Yet, other kids came over, pulled tails and paws, poked ears and eyes, and all the dogs would lie down and roll over.

[elfe]

exactly, it's the hunting instinct which causes many bite incidents. anything fleeing, the more when screaming with fear, can trigger even the calmest and soppiest dog.

when i added a new dog to the pack it was never a problem if the new dog acted curious and and friendly. if the new dog was scared to death and ran off yelping and even snapping he lost already and all the pack behind him starting to 'hunt' and chase him... strangely this happened very rarely, even with a pack of many new big dogs around the newcomer. if one was scared, i calmed it down and told my others to be slow and introduced carefully, usually after a few minutes the dog was settled and no problems.

with tiny puppies and very scared dogs, i always keep them in the compound where the door to my house is always open and the dogs go in and out, here such thing doesn't happen as i'm the 'boss'. but in the other compound, when i'm in the house and 'far', i wouldn't trust them with such dog.

some years ago i took in a 3yrs old poodle from neighbours who chained him outside their house all the time away from them, and he was barking constantly out of boredom and loneliness. he was the most lovely dog but scared to death of bigger dogs. first when i introduced him he ran from the other dogs and snapped at them when they wanted to sniff him. the others which are all well tempered and live together peacefully and never attack any new additions, started to hunt the poodle and he was in real danger as he wasn't submissive either when they 'got' him and tried to snap and growled.

then i did not have the fence to seperate the house and small garden from the biggest part of the garden and i had to keep him inside the house constantly and all efforts to overcome his fear failed. unfortunately i had to give him back to his former owners after a few months. after a few days he was gone to a new home...

the hunting behaviour can easily be triggered by small children and also adults, even in soppy dogs.

[sceadugenga]

I've certainly taken to heart the advice about the children, and I saw my sister in law only this morning and she said there had been an incident with these dogs. I'll get the details off my Mrs when she gets out of bed, Sis has no English and my Lanna Thai.... yeah enough said.

Dogs have definite signals they give off to each other as any Animal Planet watcher will tell you. When approached by a group of dogs or a larger more aggressive animal they lay on their back and expose their stomach and genitals to show submission.

My fencing them off from the family "common land" may isolate them a bit more, but then the owner may start taking them into the village and put more kids at risk. Not only are they not restrained, he doesn't supervise them, he's always running around looking for them.

I don't want these dogs poisoned but I've seen it happen to dogs which were hardly any problem at all. Of course there's always a chance in this part of the world they'll end up on a bench in the nearby Lisu village at 60B a kilo.

Got a pic of your dog Solent01? Ive seen you write about him, can't recall seeing a photo.

[Nienke]

I disagree with the theory that there is no such thing as a bad dog. A good friend of mine has a useless dog. I call him bucket because of the truck that come around trading plastic buckets for unwanted or bad dogs. His dog bites people and kills anything he can kill. He killed eleven of my wife's ducks. He has cost my friend quite a lot of money and my friend will not part with the dog. We have a VERY large Golden Retriever that would rather play than fight but he is willing to fight when he has to. My dog has had my friends dog down and trapped and holds him by the throat but doesn't clamp down. That stupid dog wants to fight each time despite having been put down every single time by my MUCH larger dog.

Bottom line is that dog should be destroyed. Any dog of mine that ever bit a child or killed fowl was destroyed. It happens but it shouldn't happen twice.

I think it's how you define 'bad' and 'good', which is very subjective although most, if not all, people agree on the fact that aggressive behavior is not desirable. IMO, there is not such things as bad dogs, but there certainly are bad or undesirable behaviors. Most often with behavior modification (of both dog AND owner/s) this can be turned into 'good' or 'manageable' behavior. It is often the owner who is not willing to put time and effort (and money) in the behavior modification of his/her dog that has been able to develop due to lack of knowledge and/or lazyness on the part of the owner/s, hence the destruction of the dog. Does that make the dog bad? I don't think so.

Nienke

P.S. I have the greatest respect for Sceadugenga and his wife, who are trying to solve this (big) problem in a humane way.

[solent01]

Sure have Scead

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...t&p=1179366

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...t&p=1178044

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...t&p=1203776

We start going to dog school tomorrow with Nienke

[MsFigure]

I think you would have every right to take whatever action you think is appropriate to protect your family and dog.

Because there are apparently no dog control laws here in Thailand where you can turn to help you with these problems, it's seems the only way to deal with problems is personally. We used to have a problem where we lived before with a dog that would always come out charging towards us and try to attack us and our rotts (with them being walked on their leash) every single time, no matter how early in the morning or late at night we'd take them walking in the hopes of avoiding this terror. After repeated complaints to people in charge of our village, and a promise on my husbands part that next time he would correct this particular dog himself if the owners refused to keep their gates closed and their dog secured behind their gate. The village body also gave notices to every house requesting that dogs be kept secured behind gates on their property because we weren't the only ones facing this problem.

Needless to say, the owners still chose to ignore our complaints & warnings and my husband kept his promise. It was only after my husband gave that dog a good beating with his "walking stick" did the owners (farang husband) listen and keep their dog secured on their property. That owner even complained about what my husband did, but was only told that he had been warned and that nothing could or would be done, and that it was his responsibilty in future to keep his gates closed and dog locked up so that it would be "safe" from any futher attacks.

The fact that the dogs owner hasn't done anything to prevent the (repeated) actions of his dogs only proves that he has no right to own them, and should accept the consequences of his failure to keep his dogs secured and under control. He obviously doesnt care what they do or who they hurt in the process, so anyone who decides to eliminate the problem (his dogs) themselves - he would only have himself to blame should anything bad happen to them.

[sceadugenga]

Thanks Ms.

I certainly never planned the beating but knew it would have to come one day and gave it my best shot when it was forced upon me.

The GS dogs haven't come out since, hopefully a permanent thing but we'll fence them off anyway.

Going to the nam tok tomorrow.....what a great place for good dogs to run and swim!!!

[sceadugenga]

Sure have Scead

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...t&p=1179366

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...t&p=1178044

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...t&p=1203776

We start going to dog school tomorrow with Nienke

Thanks mate, what an amazing dog, thought I knew them all. Just looking at some web pages for them. Actually there's a grey bitch hangs around the temple here that is near identical in appearance.