A Delicate But Serious Subject...

[LaoPo]

I feel deeply ashamed to have to report this about what happened in my home-country. It has shocked the nation and far beyond it's borders. I felt that, although not directly Thailand-related, I had to warn about eventual possible similar cases elsewhere in the world and possibly Thailand. (it's published that a similar case happened in Australia but I'm not sure).

If the Mods feel it's too sensitive, please feel free to delete the topic, but I'm concerned and deeply shocked; that's why I post it...

Dutch gang arrested for spreading HIV at sex parties

The Hague, The Netherlands - 30 May 2007 06:10

Dutch police said on Wednesday they had arrested three men accused of drugging gay men at sex parties, raping them and injecting them with a cocktail of HIV-infected blood.

"Two of the suspects have admitted to having injected at least five victims with HIV-infected blood," police spokesperson Sylvia Sanders told Dutch NOS public radio.

According to the police the gang would contact other gay men on the internet and invite them to weekly sex parties in the northern city of Groningen.

They would then administer the so-called date-rape drug GHB to the men and then sexually abuse them. In several cases, they even injected them with a cocktail of HIV-infected blood.

The police said the suspects committed the crimes for a kick and because they felt "sex without a condom was the most pure".

The two suspects who admitted to a part of the crimes named five victims who were injected with HIV-infected blood but only one of those named has filed a complaint with the police, Sanders said.

The three HIV-positive suspects, aged in their thirties and forties, have been provisionally charged with causing grievous bodily harm, sexual abuse and drugs offences. A date for the trial has not been set yet. -- AFP

It happened in the northern city of Groningen, the provincial capital of the province with the same name.

Just now it was published on television that, apart from the first 4 victims, another 20 men have reported themselves to the police. The police however fears that there must be more victims who are afraid to report themselves due to private (...) reasons.

The suspects are 3 men of which 2 are a couple. 1 of the men worked as a nurse/caretaker in a service complex for elderly.

Please: take care of yourself whereever and with whomever you go !

from:

http://www.mg.co.za/articlepage.aspx?area=...rticleid=309986

and:

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,...2121621,00.html

note:

These were the only articles I found in English so far, but there are numerous reports in our country.

LaoPo

[suanprig]

it happened in australia. in melbourne.... 1 guy, a psycho, with HIV. had unprotected with many men, i remember he was an older man about 60 odd. he was bitter about contracting the disease himself. if i remember correctly he went to prison for a long time.

[farang prince]

it happened in australia. in melbourne.... 1 guy, a psycho, with HIV. had unprotected with many men, i remember he was an older man about 60 odd. he was bitter about contracting the disease himself. if i remember correctly he went to prison for a long time.

There have been several similar cases in the USA. One case involved a jail inmate who was HIV+ and who tried to infect jailers by spitting on them and then deliberately cutting himself and using his blood-covered fingernails to try to scratch the guards. He was unsuccessful but he did manage to add about 10 years to his prison sentence.

Another case in the USA involved a guy in his 20's who got AIDS through introvenous drug use and then knowingly had sex with over 15 women. Several ended up HIV+. The suspect was sentenced to 30 years for attempted murder and if any of his victims die, I believe the court reserved the right to retry him for First Degree murder. This case happened in Ohio about 10 years ago as I recall.

The Dutch case is the first one that I have heard about where this type of modus operandi was used.

Edited May 31, 2007 by farang prince

[issanpaul]

There are some very sick people in our world to infiltrate this delberatley on others.

[eek]

Very sick indeed. What is wrong with people when they want to do something so vicious to another human being?!

[LaoPo]

The Dutch case is the first one that I have heard about where this type of modus operandi was used.

Me too; however, it was showed on television tonight that it happened before in the US but I can't confirm that. There was a documentary about it a few years ago. I'll try to find out the name of it.

Apart from that, a journalist in Holland is working now on another documentary....he explained that they filmed -undercover with hidden camera's- in so called darkrooms all over the country were unsafe sex is 'allowed'.

Another grim item he mentioned was a website he found were 1,800 (!) men registered themselves looking for a HIV infected partner...they wish to have unsafe sex with them in order to get infected themselves as well.

The country as well as the government is in shock...

It's beyond any imagination.

ps: I don't know about the gay-scene in LOS but there are sick people everywhere. It's not limited to a certain part of the world, unfortunately.

Beware!

LaoPo

[borracho]

Ermm is this really a Thailand related subject?

A discussion of current HIV statistics would be more informative than the perversions of the Netherlands!

[LaoPo]

Ermm is this really a Thailand related subject?

A discussion of current HIV statistics would be more informative than the perversions of the Netherlands!

In my OP I stated that it was not Thailand related but merely wanted to warn and inform the gay community...a lot of EU gay people do travel to Thailand, including Dutch; just have a look around in Boyz Town in Pattaya..... HIV travels fast...very fast!

And, maybe it would have been a little more appropriate if you had written " perversions in The Netherlands by some gay men "; not all Dutch- and/or gay people are perverts.

But, maybe it's a good idea to start a new topic about HIV statistics in Thailand; feel free to do so.

LaoPo

[chuck_s]

As a matter of fact, I see people from time to time advertise or chat on gay.com, gayromeo.com and gaydar.co.uk, who are HIV / AIDS infected and want to come here to have sex with Thai (unprotected). I asked one of them one time online, why do you do this. Their comment was, because I like Thai and don’t care if they get HIV / AIDS or not.

From my experience, they have a really low value to their own life and those around them. I asked a Thai friend if he contracted HIV from a western, his comment was not good, that is why he always has protected sex with condom. No condom, dinner is ok, but no sex. That is his policy.

[wpcoe]

For those of you not up on some of the jargon/lingo, it's called "bug chasing" and "bug giving."

There seem to be plenty of HIV- people (chasers) seeking unprotected sex with HIV+ people (givers). So if you are checking a chat room and see reference to "chasing" and "giving," be VERY aware of what those folks are in to!

I try not to judge the actions of others in voluntary, consensual activities, but I puzzle at the motivation of the chasers? Is it the thrill and danger of the activity?

What I *will* absolutely condemn and criticize are HIV+ who insist on unprotected sex either lying about their status to their partner or not mentioning it. What is mentioned in the OP (injecting HIV-infected blood into drugged victims) goes even beyond that.

I am acquainted with a fellow who is involved with AIDS-related charity work in Pattaya, and he is currently assisting a 17-year old who was infected by an older farang who frequents the Sunee area. Apparently it is known by the bar boys in Sunee that this predator has (presumably knowingly) infected several others with HIV. Currently, the doctor and other people are trying to get this 17-year old fellow to identify the farang to the police and put an end to his literally murderous acts. What are the laws regarding such activity? Can this farang be arrested for exposing his victims to HIV, if it can be shown that he knows he's HIV+? Can Immigrations deport him based on his HIV status?

[jdinasia]

For those of you not up on some of the jargon/lingo, it's called "bug chasing" and "bug giving."

There seem to be plenty of HIV- people (chasers) seeking unprotected sex with HIV+ people (givers). So if you are checking a chat room and see reference to "chasing" and "giving," be VERY aware of what those folks are in to!

I try not to judge the actions of others in voluntary, consensual activities, but I puzzle at the motivation of the chasers? Is it the thrill and danger of the activity?

What I *will* absolutely condemn and criticize are HIV+ who insist on unprotected sex either lying about their status to their partner or not mentioning it. What is mentioned in the OP (injecting HIV-infected blood into drugged victims) goes even beyond that.

I am acquainted with a fellow who is involved with AIDS-related charity work in Pattaya, and he is currently assisting a 17-year old who was infected by an older farang who frequents the Sunee area. Apparently it is known by the bar boys in Sunee that this predator has (presumably knowingly) infected several others with HIV. Currently, the doctor and other people are trying to get this 17-year old fellow to identify the farang to the police and put an end to his literally murderous acts. What are the laws regarding such activity? Can this farang be arrested for exposing his victims to HIV, if it can be shown that he knows he's HIV+? Can Immigrations deport him based on his HIV status?

based upon HIV status alone? no

but you make the big assumption that there is "a" guy knowingly spreading the disease

[geriatrickid]

but you make the big assumption that there is "a" guy knowingly spreading the disease

You knowingly spread the disease if you do not use a condom , encourage others to engage in unsafe activities, refuse to inform your partner of your status and refuse to be tested. This applies to heteros as well as homos.

Yea, that's an opinionated statement, but that comes from my years of public health. I've seen way too many trusting good people infected because of the irresponsibility and selfishness of others.

The post was very applicable to Thailand, because many foreigners insist on barebacking and will offer all sorts of money to barboys to do it.

Textbooks call the Thai response in the late 90's to HIV, the gold standard of prevention strategies. Due to the efficacy of some treatments and the short term drop of infections, complacency set in. Programs were curtailed and young people stopped listening. People thought all it needed was a few pills and it was ok, no problem. Unfortunately, today we are on the rebound curve. The plan to dispense drugs with no associated care program and follow up will only encourage the development of more resitant strains. Add to that the increasing numbers of existant resistant strains, super infections involving overlapped viruses and no new anti virals on the horizon and you have a catastrophe in the making.

HIV is stronger, less responsive to treatment, mutating faster and the people most at risk aren't listening to the warnings. Yea, so, it was a good post and if it jolts someone to think twice, and it will, then it's worth a he11 of alot more than a tip on where to wax your back.

[THAILIBAN]

it happened in australia. in melbourne.... 1 guy, a psycho, with HIV. had unprotected with many men, i remember he was an older man about 60 odd. he was bitter about contracting the disease himself. if i remember correctly he went to prison for a long time.

unfortunately, doing such thing in Thailand is not against the law.....

[jdinasia]

but you make the big assumption that there is "a" guy knowingly spreading the disease

You knowingly spread the disease if you do not use a condom , encourage others to engage in unsafe activities, refuse to inform your partner of your status and refuse to be tested. This applies to heteros as well as homos.

Yea, that's an opinionated statement, but that comes from my years of public health. I've seen way too many trusting good people infected because of the irresponsibility and selfishness of others.

No. You knowingly spread the disease if you know you are HIV positive and do not practice safer sex. To not get tested or not practice safe sex just makes you an idiot ... not a criminal!

Those of us involved with the HIV community over the years worked VERY hard to get the idea across to people 'treat all possible sexual encounters as if the other person is HIV positive'!

[FranklyNoMore]

Anybody having unprotected sex really has no excuse if they get hiv unless they are raped. It is up to them to insist on a condom. If they don\'t well how can they blame someone for infecting them? Even a 17 year old should know better, im afraid, and probably money was more of a lure to him than his own health. very sad but it depends how much you value your life.

[Goldcup]

Scumbags come in many shapes and colors.

Does this sort of thing happen in Thailand very often?

[sibeymai]

I am in no way homophobic but....regarding "chasing" amd "giving", how sick do you have to be to be a "chaser" or a "giver" ?

Surely if you are a chaser, you don't need to get any sicker by contracting HIV....you have the death wish already which means there's got to be something seriously wrong with your mental state to start with. Perhaps is to bring their physical body into the same state of sickness as their mind, but to be honest, I really have no idea why people would do this.

Can anyone explain what the rationale is behing being a "chaser" ?

[geriatrickid]

No. You knowingly spread the disease if you know you are HIV positive and do not practice safer sex. To not get tested or not practice safe sex just makes you an idiot ... not a criminal!

Those of us involved with the HIV community over the years worked VERY hard to get the idea across to people 'treat all possible sexual encounters as if the other person is HIV positive'!

I know where you are coming from but that's not enough. Call me a draconian faciast, if you want, (and it's been done by my colleagues). We're not going to find a cure anytime soon and the research journals are filled with gloomy news.

It's very difficult to get adolescent males to engage in danger avoidance. They just aren't wired to understand. That's the reality and that's why the pop segment has a spike in its infection rate.

Along with rights come responsibilities. There is a legal concept called "criminal negligence". From the perspective of those responsible for infectious disease control, anyone that engages in acts that are likely to promote the spread of an infection has a duty and obligation to undertake measures to stop the spread of the disease. Included with that is testing.

Yes, I know the response will be "caveat emptor" Buyer beware. However, just as we protect at risk populations from those that would take advantage of them, so too must it be done with HIV.

Alot of emphasis has been placed upon safe sex. It's the carrot & stick approach. By offering a solution, it is hoped that the highest risk part of the problem will be avoided. The only safe method is avoidance, which is like asking a guy not to breathe. Hence, my emphasis upon testing.

The Thai military has one of the best HIV prevention programs around today. The cornerstone of that program is testing. This program is being shared with Cambodia and Vietnam.

Until the circumcision strategy is fully implemented, all we have as our last defense is to identify carriers and to prevent transmission. We did it with smallpox and it has worked for outbreaks of TB. You can't identify until you test.

The current unpublished Thai circumcision clinical studies (presently undergoing peer review) indicate a resounding success and demonstrate results similar to those of Prof. Bailey's definitive 10 year study in Uganda. With the WHO endorsement and funding presently being secured, we should begin to see positive results within a decade in Thailand. Until then, the mantra is test, test test.

Edited June 17, 2007 by geriatrickid

[jdinasia]

Mandatory testing? ... for whom? every person that has sex in Thailand? in the world?

besides it being more invasive than I would care to be with my civil liberties ......... it is also just not practical.

So .. that leaves education and education and more education

[geriatrickid]

Mandatory testing? ... for whom? every person that has sex in Thailand? in the world?

besides it being more invasive than I would care to be with my civil liberties ......... it is also just not practical.

So .. that leaves education and education and more education

It can easily be done. The issue is what does one do once the results are known. An invasion of civil liberties. Yes. Years ago, TB cases were isolated. Until recently, socialist havens like cuba cloistered HIV+ cases in "hospitals" or as the PC like to say, gated communities. People raised a fuss about fingerprinting of folks visiting the U.S. but still people go to the U.S. Testing is already mandatory for some around the world (e.g. military, public health service (especially for Hepatitis), newborns in the EU and North America . China is considering mandatory testing for its civil service.

In Thailand the police can ask you for a urine sample to test for drugs. Decline and watch what happens.

Is it something I want. No, not really. So yes, you are right, education but with voluntary testing emphasis

[jdinasia]

... again ... just isn't possible (and comparing Thailand and China and India and...... ad nauseaum to the USA or the EU is not going to make your case any stronger

[geriatrickid]

... again ... just isn't possible (and comparing Thailand and China and India and...... ad nauseaum to the USA or the EU is not going to make your case any stronger

grrr you're right.I know it's impractical, that's why the plans for mandatory testing were scrapped 5 years ago. stop rubbing it in. But they did enact it for the military and it works perfectly, so yay I get a partial victory.

If you really want to get depressed, HIV is the least of people's worries. There's a chunk of people walking around with HPV and Herpes. Condoms aren't very effective in preventing transmission particularly when shedding virus. The bar worker program doesn't test for this. It's something, the bar pimps don't tell you when you take home that rent a date.

[jdinasia]

... again ... just isn't possible (and comparing Thailand and China and India and...... ad nauseaum to the USA or the EU is not going to make your case any stronger

grrr you're right.I know it's impractical, that's why the plans for mandatory testing were scrapped 5 years ago. stop rubbing it in. But they did enact it for the military and it works perfectly, so yay I get a partial victory.

If you really want to get depressed, HIV is the least of people's worries. There's a chunk of people walking around with HPV and Herpes. Condoms aren't very effective in preventing transmission particularly when shedding virus. The bar worker program doesn't test for this. It's something, the bar pimps don't tell you when you take home that rent a date.

Sorry ... again your testing scheme even for the military would not be perfect ... unless they keep testing regularly, even then ... perfect? nope .. not a chance . Yes there are other bad things out there like Hep C .. etc ... and things that can't be stopped by a condom ...

but please stick to only referring to yourself when you refer to taking "home that rent date"

[wpcoe]

For those of you not up on some of the jargon/lingo, it's called "bug chasing" and "bug giving."

Oops. I meant: It's "bug chasing" and "gift giving."

[FranklyNoMore]

A friend of my Thai bf went for an HIV test on Saturday and the Dr at the clinic said that 23 people had come in for a test and 22 were positive. These were old and young men and women and all Thai. Quite a scary fact considering we are not in a big city. It seems far too many are practicing unsafe sex. I dont know about spreading deliberately but there sure is a lot of ignorance spreading out there. Too many dont get tested because they dont want to know if they have it or not. They would rather not know. How stupid is that? The government should start some free testing programmes or something. I know you cant force people to be tested but they need to be stongly encouraged to test. Surely its better to know than not know.

[phayao]

... because many foreigners insist on barebacking and will offer all sorts of money to barboys to do it.

quote]

There are irresponsible people everywhere (farang, chinese, japanese or... Thai); as well as very responsible. During my 18 years of visiting Thailand and having sex with many rent boys and gay guys I must say that I used condoms or practice "safe sex" to the delight of everyone. All the "money boys" carried condoms and they were the first things they took off their pockets and placed in front of you. It's not only AIDS, there are many other STDs that can be easely avoided by using condoms.

I don't remember a single one that didn't want to take precautions.

[elkangorito]

Hmmmmm. Interesting thread.

I have a story about a laboratory in Sydney, Australia;

One Friday night, a mate of my'n called me & asked me if I wanted to go out with him (clubbing). I agreed & then went to his place. When I got to his place, he said that he needed to do something at "work" for 10 minutes before we went out. He worked at a multi-national pathology laboratory in North Sydney.

When we arrived at the laboratory, he asked me if I wanted to go in & wait for him, which I did. There was only he & I in this place as everybody else had gone home for the day.

What I saw was lots of sophisticated machinery, everywhere. On closer inspection of this machinery, I noticed that most were "dirty". That is, there was blood, puss & muck on various parts of these things.

My mate, who is HIV+, returned from what he was doing & then I asked him a question;

"Brad, this equipment has blood, puss & muck everywhere! Doesn't this affect the results of tests?"

To my shock, he said, "Yes."

I asked, "Why aren't they spotless?" His reply, "Because of money. The shareholders need to be satisfied & to accomplish this, overheads are reduced. This is one of those 'reduced' overheads."

Me: "So how many false test results are there?"

Him: "More than get detected."

From this day on, I have never trusted a test result. Also, given the fact that diseases can't be dealt with until they are detected, it pays not to believe any test result because you may have a disease (or variant thereof) that has not been able to be detected. I believe that there are many variants of HIV & this number is increasing.

If 2 consenting adults come together for sex, it is futile for one to blame the other about any acquired disease. Quite simply, both persons consented according to the situation. There is no such thing as "innocent" or "guilty" in the situation of 2 consenting adults because each has the ability to say yes or no. Rape etc is, of course, different.

There is only one true method of "safe sex" & that is "no sex".

[krobbie]

I have been reading this thread with some interest.

There has been some reasoned debate and some plain old scare mongering. The super HIV virus?? Good grief, the ordinary one is enough thanks.

No-one has yet suggested all HIV+ people should have a number tatooed on their forheads. I fear it won't be long before someone does.

I also note that Thai people with HIV are poor innocent victims while farang HIV+ people are dangerous criminals.

I am afraid I just don't see myself in that light.

To make sweeping staements is of no help whatsoever, no matter how knowledgeable one thinks they are. Walk a mile in someone elses shoes first. It's easy to moralise and to critisize ... when you've got a spare moment.

krobbie

[Suszzy]

very interesting subject.

lots of sick people in this world!!

quite scary..

[PeaceBlondie]

And for every topic in the Gay Forum that's about the problems of HIV, how many topics should there be in the Straight Forums? Do you straight people still think HIV is just a gay disease?