Us Court Jurisdiction

[Bob Chittie]

A US citizen defaults on their credit card payments. Not a huge amount, but enough to buy a nice new sedan in the US. A judgement may eventually be won against him in US court giving the creditors the authorization to seize assets. Now, I've got people telling me that this US COURT ORDER will allow the creditors to hunt down and seize all personal assets around the globe. Do governemtns and institutions around the world really bow down to a US court order when no major crime has been commited? So can this person (me) expect bank accounts at Thai Farmer's bank for instance to be seized by US creditors holding a US court order? Somehow I have a hard time believing this.

Comments and opinions are interesting, but solid facts far more so.

[astral]

Might happen.

Toxin and Bush are pretty close buddies.

So how much did you default on??

[GuestHouse]

Not settling a debt at home comes under the heading 'Burning Your Bridges'.

Never a good idea.

[maerim]

Not a huge amount, but enough to buy a nice new sedan in the US. A

How much is that $20.000? I for one would think that lawyers fees and all the rest of the parasites who get involved with this sort of operation it would not be worth their while.

Now if you add some more zeros to the figure they just might.

[chingy_]

it take seven year to clear your record, i mean not clear your record totaly but hidden away in a closet that no one can access it, not even creditor, the only people that can actually peek in it is the government themself

[Bob Chittie]

Interesting comments. No facts. Believe me, I did everything possible to avoid defaulting. I was defrauded out of some assets and a certain Thai woman friend made off with a nice chunk herself.

I am aware about the negative effects of defaulting and the burning your bridges bit. But when you can't pay, then you simply can't pay. there's no way around it.

At any rate, the question still remains. Can a US creditor seize int assets keeping in mind this isn't terrorism or drug running or money laundering. Its defaulting on credit card debt.

(By the way- one creditor- $25,000. The others 7 creditors total about $30,000. I guess that's a luxury sedan in the US.)

[konangrit]

Get a Swiss account, I guarantee they won't be able to lay a finger on it there ......

[Johpa]

Interesting comments. No facts. Believe me, I did everything possible to avoid defaulting. I was defrauded out of some assets and a certain Thai woman friend made off with a nice chunk herself.

I am aware about the negative effects of defaulting and the burning your bridges bit. But when you can't pay, then you simply can't pay. there's no way around it.

Well if you simply can't pay then you should have filed for a personal bankruptcy, a chapter 7 filing. But to simply default and run away is just pure foolishness. Hoping that by staying in Thailand this will simply go away is also foolish thinking. This is not an insignificant sum. Unless you plan to live the rest of your life on the lamb hoping to get another country's passport then you might want to contact a lawyer back in the US and get sound sound legal advice. Having let a Thai woman run off with your assets testifies that you don't have the wisdom to outsmart the authorities by your lonesome.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Get a Swiss account, I guarantee they won't be able to lay a finger on it there ......

A Singaporean bank is closer and very close mouthed. No tax at all in the Lion State for non residents, and the banks there have a record of no cooperation with investigators unless the funds banked are the result of criminal activities.

[Dutchy2]

Get a Swiss account, I guarantee they won't be able to lay a finger on it there ......

A Singaporean bank is closer and very close mouthed. No tax at all in the Lion State for non residents, and the banks there have a record of no cooperation with investigators unless the funds banked are the result of criminal activities.

This is very interesting, I didn't know that. I'll check out the banks in Singapore asap.

Mr Bob, why are people telling you all this.. What did you do in the States that makes you worry so much..?

Dutchy

[ProThaiExpat]

Bob Chittie: So many posts and none to the point. Must be frustrating.

Without making too public my background and experience, I offer you the following:

The general legal advice provided regarding debt collection by U.S. lawyers to their private clients is that the amount in queston must be 100K USD or the process is not economically feasable, and that is debt collection in the U.S.

Large creditor companies have debt collection staff who can become knowledgeable in a given state laws, and effect collections at a much cheaper rate.

However, it is my guess that, unless the individual credit card company has a debt for collection in excess of 50K USD, they will write the debt off as uncollectable, post it on the credit reporting network, and be done with it.

Tracing your assets to Thailand and in Thailand is another problem for them. In the U.S. most of your asset information is collected by the credit agencies through applicatons for credit you make when buying on credit, where you voluntarily list your assests. This information is transferred to your credit profile and available to all.

I am unaware that this is done in Thailand, if you haven't gotten into the credit system in Thailand, even if there is one. While Citibank is here and in the U.S., they would be the most likely to be able to do it, but I doubt it.

You might take a look at your most recent credit report in the U.S., obtainable for a fee on the internet. It will indicate if your debts were "written off" as "uncollectable". That status indicates no further collection effort will be made.

If the debt is two years old or more, unlikely collection efforts will be made.

PM me if you want to explore the issue further.

[Bob Chittie]

Interesting comments. No facts. Believe me, I did everything possible to avoid defaulting. I was defrauded out of some assets and a certain Thai woman friend made off with a nice chunk herself.

I am aware about the negative effects of defaulting and the burning your bridges bit. But when you can't pay, then you simply can't pay. there's no way around it.

Well if you simply can't pay then you should have filed for a personal bankruptcy, a chapter 7 filing. But to simply default and run away is just pure foolishness. Hoping that by staying in Thailand this will simply go away is also foolish thinking. This is not an insignificant sum. Unless you plan to live the rest of your life on the lamb hoping to get another country's passport then you might want to contact a lawyer back in the US and get sound sound legal advice. Having let a Thai woman run off with your assets testifies that you don't have the wisdom to outsmart the authorities by your lonesome.

You assume so much... Of course I have considered bankruptcy. There are reasons this is not an option. I have not 'run away to Thailand' as you so boldly assume. I lived here many years making my payments on time every month before I ran into this problem. Why you seem to think that one who has defaulted on credit card debt will be on the run for the rest of their lives, attempting to secure a passport of another country is beyond me. I suggest you read up on unsecured debt and the laws that governs the industry. I do not mean that this is not a serious matter and believe me, I have lost sleep over it, but you've taken it too far. And I did not state that a Thai woman ran off with my assets. I stated that a Thai woman got a nice sum. Now if you want to try to tell me that I am the first one to see money go the way of a pretty Thai girl, please do and we can discredit you altogether. And finally, it is not about outsmarting the authorities. It is about understanding the law to the fullest extent and protecting my interests. Its abaout remaining intelligent and well educated in a difficult and unfortunate sitaution and not sucumbing to groundless paranoia.

I appreciate the more useful advice from the likes of Pat Pong and others.

It still seems unclear as to whether Us creditors could seize Thai assets or if they remain outside of their jurisdiction.

[Bob Chittie]

Get a Swiss account, I guarantee they won't be able to lay a finger on it there ......

A Singaporean bank is closer and very close mouthed. No tax at all in the Lion State for non residents, and the banks there have a record of no cooperation with investigators unless the funds banked are the result of criminal activities.

This is very interesting, I didn't know that. I'll check out the banks in Singapore asap.

Mr Bob, why are people telling you all this.. What did you do in the States that makes you worry so much..?

Dutchy

Was unable to pay credit card bills!

[OldAsiaHand]

Bob,

ProThaiExpat has given you solid advice, saying roughly what any competent commercial lawyer would say after you retained him and all for free. He's either the said competent commercial lawyer himself, or he has had plenty of experience hiring them.

If you want it in a hundred words or less, the answer to your question is this:

Yes, your US creditors could get one or more judgments against you in the US and then, seeking to satisfy those judgments, they could make a subsequent application to the Thai courts for enforcement and to seize any of your assets that are located in Thailand.

No, this is very unlikely to happen because of the relatively small amount of money at stake versus the cost of the procedure and the difficulty of tracing your assets to Thailand in the first place.

And that's only eighty-two words, so I'll reduce my bill accordingly.

[Dutchy2]

Mr Bob, why are people telling you all this.. What did you do in the States that makes you worry so much..?

Dutchy

Was unable to pay credit card bills!

Oh I see, and you do have funds at the Thai Farmer's Bank now but you are unwilling to pay your debt.

You are also not running away from the US.

I guess your type is exactly what Thailand needs then...

Dutchy

[TizMe]

Christopher Skase fled Australia in 1991 with personal debts of $172 million.

The Australian Government spent over $3 million trying to bring him to justice.

They got $0.

[Bob Chittie]

Mr Bob, why are people telling you all this.. What did you do in the States that makes you worry so much..?

Dutchy

Was unable to pay credit card bills!

Oh I see, and you do have funds at the Thai Farmer's Bank now but you are unwilling to pay your debt.

You are also not running away from the US.

I guess your type is exactly what Thailand needs then...

Dutchy

I probably shouldn't even respond to the likes of you, but I can't help myself. Once again, another person who assumes so much and knows so little. Did I say that i have $55,000 in Thai Farmers Bamk, but I just don't want to pay my bills? There's a small sum of money there that wouldn't satisfy the creditors for more than a couple months. It is simple logic to use this money to rebuild and eventually pay off my debts. It is utter stupidity to give it to the creditors, knowing full well that within 2 months they will be back asking for more.

At the end of the day though, everyone is free to agree or disagree or think of me as you will. And I certainly understand some resentment from those that work hard to pay their credit card bills. I did it for many, many years. I have not planned this and I am only trying to make the smartest decisions possible now that I find myself in this situation.

[Bob Chittie]

Bob,

ProThaiExpat has given you solid advice, saying roughly what any competent commercial lawyer would say after you retained him and all for free. He's either the said competent commercial lawyer himself, or he has had plenty of experience hiring them.

If you want it in a hundred words or less, the answer to your question is this:

Yes, your US creditors could get one or more judgments against you in the US and then, seeking to satisfy those judgments, they could make a subsequent application to the Thai courts for enforcement and to seize any of your assets that are located in Thailand.

No, this is very unlikely to happen because of the relatively small amount of money at stake versus the cost of the procedure and the difficulty of tracing your assets to Thailand in the first place.

And that's only eighty-two words, so I'll reduce my bill accordingly.

Thanks very. I appreciate the straightforward facts.

Incidently, I don't have a BMW, a Villa by the sea and five high class call girls by my side. I have a small amount of money I will use to rebuild and eventually pay off my debts and obviously I want to make sure its safe.

[HinHam]

There are too many people who have commited fraud in there respective home country's then come-over here. Thailand really needs people like this.

In short go back, get a job and pay off the debt, get your self respect back. You wont earn money here to pay off the debt, just spend what cash you have on booze and hookers.

Many people have credit cards, I am one of them, the reason the fees and interest is at the level it is, because of people like you.

No sympathy here, did you honestly think that people would aid your scam?

[HinHam]

Personnaly I would like to see everyone who goes to another country credit checked BEFORE a Visa is issued.

Problem Solved

[Bob Chittie]

There are too many people who have commited fraud in there respective home country's then come-over here.  Thailand really needs people like this.

In short go back, get a job and pay off the debt, get your self respect back.  You wont earn money here to pay off the debt, just spend what cash you have on booze and hookers.

Many people have credit cards, I am one of them, the reason the fees and interest is at the level it is, because of people like you.

No sympathy here, did you honestly think that people would aid your scam?

And once again you assume so much. SO many hostile posters here. No fraud has been commited. You don't know anything of my lifestyle or my work and yet you have the audacity to proclaim that I spend my cash getting drunk and fuc#king and that I have pulled off some scam.

A more intelligent man wouldn't make such comments without sufficient information. Information like when I came to Thailand years ago I had excellent credit. Information like after arriving I made payments on time for over 30 consecutive months without fail, leading the creditors to extend me even more credit and reduce my interest rates.

'Go back. Get a job. Pay off your debts.' So simple... Take a look on google and see all the people LIVING AND WORKING IN THE US who are struggling enormously with similar problems.

Incidently, the level of your interest rates correlates directly to your credit score. A very good credit score will bring very low rates, regardless of 'people like me'. The reasons they charge high fees is because they can. Simple as that.

And no sympathy asked for on my behalf. If you'll look to the first post, I was only looking for some solid information based in fact. And I thank those more level headed posters out there who have given me this.

As far as 'people aiding my scam', whatever are you talking about? It is simple logic to protect what little you have in such a situation as to allow oneself to rebuild and yes, pay off one's debts.

[Judge]

I have a close friend that neglected to pay off his credit card bills in the US for the same amount as you, and, by the way, he blew all of it on Patpong hookers.

He has been here for many years and has had no problem renewing his passport or keeping money in a Thai bank, so I think that you should be OK.

He does say that he wishes that he hadn't done it. He has had to worry about these things over the years, still worries about them when thinking about visiting home, and also misses the convenience of having a credit card.

You always pay somehow.

[Flummoxed]

Personnaly I would like to see everyone who goes to another country credit checked BEFORE a Visa is issued.

Problem Solved 

Hmm, well if this happened I think the tourism industry would collapse.

I can only speakfrom personal experience here but I know many many MANY people in my home country who work very hard and always endeavour to pay their bills , yet the realities of life in the UK are such that these people still slip into debt... and I include myself in that description. there is a very high percentage of UK folk with black marks on their credit score. A redundancy or a run of misfortune is all it takes and it's hard to get on top again.

I would never encourage people to run away from debt. There are many stories of unfortunate souls in Thailand who have tried that, only to find they must eventually return home to face the music. However, in your case Bob, I wouldn't worry too much, as long as there is no Audit trail to your account in Thailand I don't see that there's much they can do, besides which, do they even know you're in Thailand? To my knowledge, there are no mechanisms in place for your government to trace your cross border movements, unless of course your known to Interpol for some reason.....

....and I understand where you're coming from about making your creditors a payment. Their loss is insured and any payment you struggled to make would just be lost in a sea of their money......screw 'em

.....and if you want to see people with mounting personal debt, just look at the Thai's

[DogNo1]

Bob,

I'm not an expert on credit matters, but I do know people who have ressurected their credit ratings by bargaining with their creditors to make small payments on the amount they owe. Alternatively, declaring bankruptcy now would open the possibility of getting a credit card again seven years from now. From what I have gleaned from the various posts, you really did have a legitimate reason to declare bankruptcy. It might be worth resolving the situation in some way rather than having it worry you. Good luck.

[Bob Chittie]

Just like to thank everyone who has offered positive and constructive advice.

[Bob Chittie]

I have a close friend that neglected to pay off his credit card bills in the US for the same amount as you, and, by the way, he blew all of it on Patpong hookers.

He has been here for many years and has had no problem renewing his passport or keeping money in a Thai bank, so I think that you should be OK.

He does say that he wishes that he hadn't done it. He has had to worry about these things over the years, still worries about them when thinking about visiting home, and also misses the convenience of having a credit card.

You always pay somehow.

That's a lot of hookers!

[wolf5370]

Wouldn't taking the bankrupcy path preclude you from residency ? I have heard they, Immigration, ask your embassy to confirm that you are not bankrupt/insolvent as well as free from legal obstruction and without a criminal record. Not knowing if you want to go for residency of course, but may be of relevence to you situation.

Los has NO central credit reference agency. Therefore, there is no one for the US debt collectors to approach as to your assets. Of course, if you have a visa which required you to have certain level of income or savings, then the state may have an audit trail.

There are a several things to consider when assessing the Likelihood of the creditors chasing you cross border:

- How much you owe them - is it worth the cost. [not Likely in your case]

- Likelihood of recovery of enough to make chase viable [pretty low]

- Does it harm their image to NOT chase you/improve there image if they do - [Doubtful chasing will benefit them in this way].

- Do they know your wareabouts - [probably in your case as you have been paying from a Thai address (?)]

- How easy is it to raise an asset lock in Thailand. What is the success rate of this. [don't know the answer to this one - I suppose that in itself is an answer though]

- Can they recover costs elswhere. [yes, they sell your dept to a collection agency and get back 50% or so - they rest they claim from insurance. The credit agency chases locally in the US, discovers you've left the country and sits on it. Eventually, if you do not return, they claim on their insurance and close the account]

I think as above, that it is very unlikely that they will come-a-hunting. Most likely they will wreck your credit history at home, and leave you be.

If you have an audit trail from a Thai bank to them, then open another account (with cash) and keep your other one only if you need it for visa purposes (shows your transfer from abroad etc).

If you go back, then don't refer to your listed addresses (those that were linked with your bad debt). Don't let it keep you up at night, these b*starts make enough money out of people and are insured up the wazzoo.

[Johpa]

You assume so much... I probably shouldn't even respond to the likes of you, but I can't help myself.......And once again you assume so much. SO many hostile posters here. No fraud has been commited.......A more intelligent man wouldn't make such comments

So you are not only a deadbeat who is going to stiff some bank for tens of thousands of dollars which the rest of us will have to make up in increased interest rates and assorted other bank and merchant fees but you are also an arrogant SOB to boot.

So what if your Thai girl friend walked off with some of your money. Geez, pick a number and wait in line with the thousands of other seubeu Farangs who have paved that road ahead of you. Just be happy that you owe that money to a bank that is bound to work within the legal system and that can afford to write off the amount owed and collect it from honest hard working schmucks like myself. If you were a Thai, or just about any other nationality in the world, in this situation you would have already have been paid a visit by some nak leng named Guido.

As the monks would advise, you need to make some serious merit (bun) to decrease the Dukkha which you so richly deserve.

[walker]

A couple of things: 1) Johpa....I think you meant "life on the lam", not "life on the lamb", as that would be either Wyoming or New Zealand. 2) Bob, I really don't think you can assert that what you are doing is not fraud....you may be a very nice guy, but stiffing your creditors, running and attempting to hide your assets (for whatever reason) certainly is fraud, which is defined as "a deliberate deception for unfair gain", exactly what you're doing. The "why" or the rest of your moral character doesn't enter the definition. And the moral posturing makes you the sort of guy I'm not inviting to my house, because I'm sure you could justify theft as well......actually, you already have, you're just trying to get away with it.

[Bob Chittie]

A couple of things: 1) Johpa....I think you meant "life on the lam", not "life on the lamb", as that would be either Wyoming or New Zealand. 2) Bob, I really don't think you can assert that what you are doing is not fraud....you may be a very nice guy, but stiffing your creditors, running and attempting to hide your assets (for whatever reason) certainly is fraud, which is defined as "a deliberate deception for unfair gain", exactly what you're doing. The "why" or the rest of your moral character doesn't enter the definition. And the moral posturing makes you the sort of guy I'm not inviting to my house, because I'm sure you could justify theft as well......actually, you already have, you're just trying to get away with it.

So you are not only a deadbeat who is going to stiff some bank for tens of thousands of dollars which the rest of us will have to make up in increased interest rates and assorted other bank and merchant fees but you are also an arrogant SOB to boot.

Deafulting on unsecured debt is not fraud, no matter how much you'd like to convince yourself to the contrary. This wasn't planned. I didn't max out the cards one day and buy a plane ticket to Thailand.

'Hiding my assets' (as if there's millions of dollars in swiss bank accounts) so that I have a chance to rebuild and eventually actually pay my creditors back is simple logic. The alternative is to give the money away, (an amount that would not even begin to satisfy the creditors) and have no chance at rebuilding and no chance at paying off my debts. So am I trying to 'get away with that'? Absolutley. And I make no apologies.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I'm not here looking for sympathy or approval. I'm here to get information to better help me look out for number one. That's exactly what I've gotten and that's exactly what I will do.

God forbid any of the hostile posters here ever find themselves in a such a situation. But I suppose they are all above that. Certainly it could never happen to them.

Johpa, your sympathy for the banks is really very sweet, but perhaps a bit naive. Keep your credit score high and your interest rates will be low. Don't let your blood pressure increase over the likes of deadbeats like myself.