The "restive South" - How Did It Start?

[Jim's_a_Thai_Fox]

Hi,

I've lived in Thailand for over 3 years (never in the south) and am perturbed and saddened by the continuing violence in the south.

However, I find that I have very little understanding of the overall scenario and am ignorant as to why the violence has flared up again in the last few years, who is involved and what are their goals/aims.

Given the current government 'stranglehold' on the national media, there is little objective information available on this subject. I am teaching a university class on 'Mess Media' and would like to encourage the Thai students to find out information for themselves, not rely on state run media so much.

Can you shed some non-partisan light on this sensitive subject, maybe pointing out some good media sources for further reading?

Many thanks, and my sincerest condolences to all of those people who have been directly or indirectly affected by this issue.

Thanks

James

[Mid]

Southern resentment erupts in violence

1902 - Thailand (then called Siam) annexes the ancient Kingdom of Patani, a semi-autonomous Islamic Malay region.

continues http://www.alertnet.org/db/crisisprofiles/....htm?v=timeline

[jdinasia]

Wiki has some good info on it

but basically maps were redrawn in or around 1902 adding the 3 provinces to Thailand

jump ahead to WW2 and the folks in that region were promised freedom from Thailand by (I think) The Brits for their help against the Japanese.

Then you have insurgencies off and on in 48 and starting again around 68

There are a few threads on the subject already

[ThaiPauly]

I am surprised the Brits promised them those provinces.....yes we had a strong presence in Malaysia but I did not think we were involved in making such promises, don't see how we could?

I may be completely wrong though !!!

[mellow1]

The present government will give you all the information you need.

[steveromagnino]

Southern resentment erupts in violence

1902 - Thailand (then called Siam) annexes the ancient Kingdom of Patani, a semi-autonomous Islamic Malay region.

continues http://www.alertnet.org/db/crisisprofiles/....htm?v=timeline

fairly good timeline. While an ongoing problem ever since Taksin came to power, and shifted control of the southern provinces away from Army officials with a sound knowledge of the area (with a large number of southerners and Muslims) and into the hands of his handpicked police guys from BKK mostly. Democrats controlled much of the south, so TRT were never particularly careful in dealing with the area; believing they could just use military might to clamp down on it.

Prior to that, most governments allowed the south to let off a few bombs, complain a bit, and everyone got on with their lives. There were supposedly even listening ears within the army controlling the area, to ensure separatists were able to continue the bombings but in ways that no one got hurt. A bit like some of Bangkok's bombs in the last year; carefully orchestrated to ensure there wouldn't be lots of casualities, that sort of thing.

A series of tit for tat escalations including the drug war (used to kill more than a few southerners) and bomb attacks plus slayings and martial law have lead us to today, where the seperatists are heavily funded from the country/ies south of Thailand and the majority of productive Thais living in the area need protection to continue, well, just living. Taksin refused to backdown, and instead moved the tension levels up, foregoing chances of peace talks along the way.

now the situation is within a world context, and not nearly so easy to manage. Reality is that it is like two countries down there, many Thais don't relate at all to the Muslims of Pattani being that they speak a different language, attend different schools and herein lies the problem of getting an egotistical telco billionaire to try to solve an issue that is a bit more complex than getting people to buy call minutes on their phone.

AFAIK the British did indeed promise the world to the Pattani group, and delivered an atlas similar to middle east/Israel type solution; might have had something to do with American strategies in the area or perhaps because of the way the Thais managed the relationship as a Japanese occupied ally yet never being formally at war with the allies. But as fas as I can recall, they did promise and then not deliver independence following occupation post WW2.

Edited June 22, 2007 by steveromagnino

[Mid]

any knowledge of the number of Thai Buddhists that have fled the region in the last decade ,

I've seen figures of 40% , but will need to search to find a cite .

Edited June 22, 2007 by Mid

[chinthee]

Southern resentment erupts in violence

1902 - Thailand (then called Siam) annexes the ancient Kingdom of Patani, a semi-autonomous Islamic Malay region.

continues http://www.alertnet.org/db/crisisprofiles/....htm?v=timeline

fairly good timeline. While an ongoing problem ever since Taksin came to power, and shifted control of the southern provinces away from Army officials with a sound knowledge of the area (with a large number of southerners and Muslims) and into the hands of his handpicked police guys from BKK mostly. Democrats controlled much of the south, so TRT were never particularly careful in dealing with the area; believing they could just use military might to clamp down on it.

Prior to that, most governments allowed the south to let off a few bombs, complain a bit, and everyone got on with their lives. There were supposedly even listening ears within the army controlling the area, to ensure separatists were able to continue the bombings but in ways that no one got hurt. A bit like some of Bangkok's bombs in the last year; carefully orchestrated to ensure there wouldn't be lots of casualities, that sort of thing.

A series of tit for tat escalations including the drug war (used to kill more than a few southerners) and bomb attacks plus slayings and martial law have lead us to today, where the seperatists are heavily funded from the country/ies south of Thailand and the majority of productive Thais living in the area need protection to continue, well, just living. Taksin refused to backdown, and instead moved the tension levels up, foregoing chances of peace talks along the way.

now the situation is within a world context, and not nearly so easy to manage. Reality is that it is like two countries down there, many Thais don't relate at all to the Muslims of Pattani being that they speak a different language, attend different schools and herein lies the problem of getting an egotistical telco billionaire to try to solve an issue that is a bit more complex than getting people to buy call minutes on their phone.

Steve, I agree and have lived in the south (well, if you count tame Phuket as south) for many years. In discussing this with my wife and her family who are from central, and many other Thais from central and north, there seems to be a universal fear of anyone from the south, even Phuket! Many of them are afraid to go even to Phuket, or Krabi, etc., let alone Pattani.

They also fear the "gang" mentality that they perceive of the muslim communities, and tell stories of entire villages attacking drivers of cars who hit someone from the local village etc.. So, there is a lot of history of mistrust and fear generally between the south and the rest of Thailand it seems to me.

[A_Traveller]

AFAIK the British did indeed promise the world to the Pattani group, and delivered an atlas similar to middle east/Israel type solution; might have had something to do with American strategies in the area or perhaps because of the way the Thais managed the relationship as a Japanese occupied ally yet never being formally at war with the allies. But as fas as I can recall, they did promise and then not deliver independence following occupation post WW2.

The US were most insistent that changes such as this did not take place. {Remember the UK underwent a general election and a change of government during this time} The US view point was, in part, driven by the concern of any growth of 'Empire', therefore as is so often the case in the aftermath of a conflict changes which had been suggested as an incentive failed to materialise.

Re formally at war, please note that the Thai government did formally declare war on the Allied Powers on 25h January 1942 and signed a peace agreement {with Britain} in Singapore on January 1 1946. It is worth noting that the minister to Washington DC refused to deliver the declaration and went on to organise a Free Thai movement.

Regards

[Mid]

and tell stories of entire villages attacking drivers of cars who hit someone from the local village etc

not a story , true .

[jdinasia]

Greater Malay Patani State

On 8 December 1941, during the Second World War, the Japanese invaded Thailand and crossed Pattani to invade British Malaya. The Thai government later even became a reluctant ally of Japan. Tengku Mahmud Mahyuddin, a prominent Pattani leader and the son of the last Raja of Pattani, allied himself with the British in the hopes that Pattani would be granted independence after an Allied victory. His main support came from ethnic Malays displeased by the nationalistic policies of the Phibun regime, which forced for them to give up their own language and culture.

Mahyuddin assisted the British by launching guerrilla attacks against the Japanese. In 1945, a petition by Malay leaders led by Tengku Abdul Jalal demanded that Britain guarantee independence for the southernmost provinces of Thailand. At the war's end, the Greater Malay Pattani State (Negara Melayu Patani Raya) flag did fly briefly inPattani. However, the British broke their promises and allowed continued Thai rule over Pattani, determined to keep Thailand stable as a counterweight to the communist insurgency then being fought in Malaya. This caused the formation of several insurgent groups seeking the independence of Pattani.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pattani_%28re...ments_in_Patani

There are FAR better sources .. but this one was handy

[chinthee]

and tell stories of entire villages attacking drivers of cars who hit someone from the local village etc

not a story , true .

Yes, this is most assuredly true. There are many reports of this happening, and one of the most infamous was a few years ago in Phuket when the Farang captain and mate of a yacht raced in their pickup through the small village next to yacht haven upon receiving a call their yacht was on fire.

Though they didn't hit anyone, they clearly posed a danger to people in the village doing that. I think around a hundred village people chased them into the water, beat them severely, then paraded them to the village centre and humiliated and made them apologize etc.. Don't remember the exact details.

Many other reports of this, and I'm always very careful driving through their villages.

[jdinasia]

and tell stories of entire villages attacking drivers of cars who hit someone from the local village etc

not a story , true .

Source ? relating this to the 'restive south"? (I have heard the same story almost everywhere ... Mexico ... Guatamala ... Laos ... Isaan etc) Not saying it is not true .. I am saying it is common in very poor areas when the local perception is a RICH outsider has hit and killed/seriously injured a local in a very poor area.

[chinthee]

and tell stories of entire villages attacking drivers of cars who hit someone from the local village etc

not a story , true .

Source ? relating this to the 'restive south"? (I have heard the same story almost everywhere ... Mexico ... Guatamala ... Laos ... Isaan etc) Not saying it is not true .. I am saying it is common in very poor areas when the local perception is a RICH outsider has hit and killed/seriously injured a local in a very poor area.

JD, honest. this is 100% true. Ask around the long time expats in Kamala or Thais you know, you will see.

[A_Traveller]

1902 - Thailand (then called Siam) annexes the ancient Kingdom of Patani, a semi-autonomous Islamic Malay region.

I never understand why no mention is made of the previous suzerainty {from the 1780's} or of the two treaty's signed between Siam and Britain re this {Burney Treaty 1826 & Anglo-Siamese 1909}. Also not sure 1902 is correct either, since the second treaty 1909 formalised the position. By the by suzerainty came about after a series of actions {attempted Royal poisonings etc.} perceived as attacks on Siam.

Regards

PS on the attacking cars point -> Mob in Texas 19 June '07

[Mid]

rest my case .

[jdinasia]

and tell stories of entire villages attacking drivers of cars who hit someone from the local village etc

not a story , true .

Source ? relating this to the 'restive south"? (I have heard the same story almost everywhere ... Mexico ... Guatamala ... Laos ... Isaan etc) Not saying it is not true .. I am saying it is common in very poor areas when the local perception is a RICH outsider has hit and killed/seriously injured a local in a very poor area.

JD, honest. this is 100% true. Ask around the long time expats in Kamala or Thais you know, you will see.

read my post again ... I don't doubt that those things happen ... I do doubt that they have anything to do with the 'restive south' (this topic

[chinthee]

and tell stories of entire villages attacking drivers of cars who hit someone from the local village etc

not a story , true .

Source ? relating this to the 'restive south"? (I have heard the same story almost everywhere ... Mexico ... Guatamala ... Laos ... Isaan etc) Not saying it is not true .. I am saying it is common in very poor areas when the local perception is a RICH outsider has hit and killed/seriously injured a local in a very poor area.

JD, honest. this is 100% true. Ask around the long time expats in Kamala or Thais you know, you will see.

read my post again ... I don't doubt that those things happen ... I do doubt that they have anything to do with the 'restive south' (this topic

You're right. duly noted. off topic. apologies

[samran]

I spent about 6 months in Pattani back in the mid 1990's. Interesting area and when I was there, pretty peaceful. As Steve mentioned, a bomb would be something put in a letter box, designed to hurt no-body.

I'm personally pretty disappointed at how things have turned out down there - particularly when things were looking up about a decade ago. I worked on as part of a Industry Ministry/MFA delegation on the Indonesia-Malaysia-Thailand growth triangle intiative, which went no-where after the 1997 crash.

A huge problem I think is the Thai government fails to allow recognition of the fact of a seperate culture and language within the Thai nation state and that there is a lingusitic divide that runs through southern Thailand rather than at the Thai Malaysian border. Reshaping the bureaucracy down there to reflect the society would go a huge way to making people feel that they belong. Something along the lines Switzerland or Belgium. But, inherently, this would involve devolved government, something which is a huge athema for the Interior Ministry especially.

I'm guessing also that it is unrealistic for seperatists there to expect that Malaysis truely wants to do terribly much, let alone bring them into Malaysia proper. It would be a huge financial burden to do so. A seperate state, economically, wouldn't be viable financially,without huge outside support.

[a2396]

This is another mishap of historical geography, of which there are many in the world. Muslim & Buddhist in the same bed together not exactly a compatible mixture. To me, the most logical answer is some "bounry readjustment", to put like & like back together. I am sure this will never happen, so the killing will go on. Another illogical split is with the French stealing part of Laos for French Indo-China in the 19th century. It would be interesting to see some proposals for re-unification, ie return Laos to Thailand - might be a good trade.

[technocracy]

It would be interesting to see some proposals for re-unification, ie return Laos to Thailand - might be a good trade.

Ermm surely you would mean return the entire of northern and north eastern Thailand back to Laos??????

Since you might notice that people generally refer to this area as Lao-Issan ... unsurprisingly this used to be Laos until the Siam decided to invade and claim the land for themselves (we are talking 1200 or so AD here).

Essential Thailand gave the land back to the French to the Mekhong as a border as such - the land was previously Laos anyway.

But in case your thoughts here would never happen!

[JonnieB]

Several really good reports on the historical reasons for and and current origins of the causes of the "troubles" in the south have been published by the International Crisis Group. You can find them at this location http://www.crisisgroup.org/home/index.cfm?id=3389&l=1

FYI: Many other interesting reports about a whole lot of currents events at this site.

[Mid]

Relatives of disappeared reject UN's findings, demand proper investigations and answers

AHRC

22 June 2007

The 12 are among 18 cases of forced disappearances in Thailand that were submitted to the UN jointly by the WGJP and the Asian Legal Resource Centre (ALRC) in 2006.

In all of the cases state officers are alleged to have been behind the abductions and disappearances of the persons concerned.

The WGJP was set up by Angkhana Neelaphaijit, whose husband Somchai was in 2004 himself a victim of abduction and forced disappearance by the police.

The Foundation for Community Educational Media 2006

continues http://www.prachatai.com/english/news.php?id=51

[a2396]

It would be interesting to see some proposals for re-unification, ie return Laos to Thailand - might be a good trade.

Ermm surely you would mean return the entire of northern and north eastern Thailand back to Laos??????

Since you might notice that people generally refer to this area as Lao-Issan ... unsurprisingly this used to be Laos until the Siam decided to invade and claim the land for themselves (we are talking 1200 or so AD here).

Essential Thailand gave the land back to the French to the Mekhong as a border as such - the land was previously Laos anyway.

But in case your thoughts here would never happen!

1200 AD is not exactly modern history. I assume for the majority of the past 700 years Laos was considered Thailand. I would think the Lao people migh consider themselves to have more of an economic future reuniting with Thailand, rather than Issan joing the political and economic situation that exists in the current day Laos.

[jdinasia]

Relatives of disappeared reject UN's findings, demand proper investigations and answers

AHRC

22 June 2007

The 12 are among 18 cases of forced disappearances in Thailand that were submitted to the UN jointly by the WGJP and the Asian Legal Resource Centre (ALRC) in 2006.

In all of the cases state officers are alleged to have been behind the abductions and disappearances of the persons concerned.

The WGJP was set up by Angkhana Neelaphaijit, whose husband Somchai was in 2004 himself a victim of abduction and forced disappearance by the police.

The Foundation for Community Educational Media 2006

continues http://www.prachatai.com/english/news.php?id=51

The restive South ... how did it sart ? .........

[Mid]

Can you shed some non-partisan light on this sensitive subject, maybe pointing out some good media sources for further reading?

The restive South ... how did it sart ? .........

jdinasia ,

bite me ,

smart ass

[highchol]

and wheres it all heading and where will it end up?

only slightly off topic

[Jim's_a_Thai_Fox]

cheers folk for the info, will try and get my students to do a bit of thinking for themselves - certainly a more difficult task than getting the Buddhists and Muslims to stop fighting

[steveromagnino]

cheers folk for the info, will try and get my students to do a bit of thinking for themselves - certainly a more difficult task than getting the Buddhists and Muslims to stop fighting

I think you mean a few extremist Muslims and everyone else (Buddhist and the rest of the Muslims) are fighting. And by fighting we mean mostly terrorist attacks and beheadings etc vs. systematic poor treatment by the state.

[Mid]

I think you mean a few extremist Muslims and everyone else (Buddhist and the rest of the Muslims) are fighting. And by fighting we mean mostly terrorist attacks and beheadings etc vs. systematic poor treatment by the state.

understand your sediments , Steve

however

your in danger of trivialising the situation .