Pool pump not starting

[peterfranks]

Every now and then I wake up to a pool pump that hasn't automatically started.

 

The pool pump is controlled by the chlorinator through a contactor.

 

The chlorinator starts, but the pump not.

 

On the control board the pump has a switch auto/off/on.

 

I simply turn the switch to on, and the pump will start instantly, then turn it back to auto, and it will work fine for the next several weeks.

 

Will this be the switch or the contactor that needs replacing?

[degrub]

Do you have the wiring sketch for the control circuits ? If you do, please post. 
Do you have a volt ohm meter ?

 

what experience do you have working with 115/230 volt circuits ? 

 

What is the disconnect for power to the pump and the chlorinator control circuit - plug or hardwired ?

 

make sure you have power supply to the pump and the chlorinator circuits disconnected. Don’t rely on a circuit breaker alone.

 

It might be just a loose/corroded wire connection OR a weak coil,  if dual coil, on the contactor, weak output from the chlorinator control circuit, or contaminated/fouled contacts on the switch or chlorinator output circuit if it uses an interposing relay. 

[Bagwain]

Sounds like the timer on the chlorinator is playing up. We by pass them even on top quality machines which we only deal with (PuraPool).

The timers are the week link in all brands. Use the timer supplied in the control box for the pump & the chlorinator and just turn the chlorinator to on.

[peterfranks]

1 minute ago, Bagwain said:

Sounds like the timer on the chlorinator is playing up. We by pass them even on top quality machines which we only deal with (PuraPool).

The timers are the week link in all brands. Use the timer supplied in the control box for the pump & the chlorinator and just turn the chlorinator to on.

Nothing wrong with the timer as far as I'm aware, because the chlorinator starts, but the pump doesn't.

 

So when the cell housing is empty, because the cell works but there is no water flow, the chlorinator displays error message

 

Turning the pump switch to ON, then back to AUTO and everything works for the next month or two

[Bagwain]

The are flow sensors in the chlorinators. It is very dangerous for a chlorinator to run with no flow. They can and will explode.

Is the pump plugged into the chlorinator?

[peterfranks]

1 minute ago, Bagwain said:

The are flow sensors in the chlorinators. It is very dangerous for a chlorinator to run with no flow. They can and will explode.

Is the pump plugged into the chlorinator?

Did you notice that I mentioned that the chlorinator goes in error because there is no flow?

 

The chlorinator activates the contactor of the pump.

[Bagwain]

12 minutes ago, peterfranks said:

Did you notice that I mentioned that the chlorinator goes in error because there is no flow?

 

The chlorinator activates the contactor of the pump.

Of course I did.

Is the pump plugged directly into the clorinator?

[peterfranks]

5 minutes ago, Bagwain said:

Of course I did.

Is the pump plugged directly into the clorinator?

As I said already, the chlorinator controls the contactor which operates the pump.

 

I haven't done that installation myself 12 years ago, and there are I think 10 contactors in that control box, so I don't know if the chlorinator goes to the 3 way switch or the contactor, but obviously not directly to the pump

[Bagwain]

If the pump wire goes into the control box then it is not controled by the chlorinator. If the pump wire goes into the chlorinator then it is controlled by the clorinator. With the later, If there is a flow issue then the pump will be turned off by the chlorintor as protection. If it was installed by Thais then there is a very good chance that the pump is not plugged into the chlorinator. If it is it is very unusual. 

Normally the chlorinator timer has a On/Auto/Off setting. I not sure what you mean by a contactor?  If the On/Auto/Off is located on the chlorinator then this is the timer control. As already stated, these are unreliable and do fail regularly. 

If this is the case then you need to run both the pump & the chlorinator through a separate timer. Normally one is in the electrical control box. If not they are about 800 baht.

[peterfranks]

21 minutes ago, Bagwain said:

I not sure what you mean by a contactor?

I thought you were a professional, and you don't know what a contactor is?

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=contactor+relay&tbm=isch

 

23 minutes ago, Bagwain said:

If the pump wire goes into the control box then it is not controled by the chlorinator. If the pump wire goes into the chlorinator then it is controlled by the clorinator.

 

24 minutes ago, Bagwain said:

If it was installed by Thais then there is a very good chance that the pump is not plugged into the chlorinator.

In a proper installation the pump never get directly controlled by the chlorinator, because the pump will draw too much current during start up and damage the chlorinator, hence the use of a contactor relay. Looks like the Thais know how to do it.

22 minutes ago, Bagwain said:

If there is a flow issue then the pump will be turned off by the chlorintor as protection.

The pump doesn't get turned off because there is a flow issue, the chlorinator get turned off because there is a flow issue...........since the pump hasn't started when the chlorinator started.

 

A timer on a chlorinator doesn't have an auto setting either. You enter a start/stop time, or you don't.

 

The 3 way switches are obviously on the control box, one for each pump, so it can be operated manually, or by a timer or remote control, or switched off.

 

 

 

[sappersrest]

It sounds very likely that you may have an intermtent fault with an electronic relay on the circuit board of the chlorinator. Ie the one that controls the pump switcing.

Without a circuit diagram of the board in the chlorinator and info on the control panel, its all pretty much down to drawing assumptions.

[Bagwain]

5 hours ago, peterfranks said:

I thought you were a professional, and you don't know what a contactor is?

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=contactor+relay&tbm=isch

 

 

In a proper installation the pump never get directly controlled by the chlorinator, because the pump will draw too much current during start up and damage the chlorinator, hence the use of a contactor relay. Looks like the Thais know how to do it.

The pump doesn't get turned off because there is a flow issue, the chlorinator get turned off because there is a flow issue...........since the pump hasn't started when the chlorinator started.

 

A timer on a chlorinator doesn't have an auto setting either. You enter a start/stop time, or you don't.

 

The 3 way switches are obviously on the control box, one for each pump, so it can be operated manually, or by a timer or remote control, or switched off.

 

 

 

Ok Mr Google who didn't do the installation 12 yrs ago!

That is what is called a magnetic in the industry not a pump controller!

It is a safety mechanism. 

 

The reason that the pump is plugged into the chlorinator is becuase the chlorinator draws power before the pump so it doesn't do what you think it does.

If I am wrong with hundreds of instalations, why do the chlorinators have a female socket for the plug for the pump?

As per photo.

However that particular brand is highly unreliable at best and they have now deleted the connection due to the fact that that the natives don't use it. 

If you look under your machine you may be suprised to see a connector for the pump!

 

We replace magnetics on a regular basis! Becuase they do their job!

 

But you seem to know better!

[peterfranks]

7 minutes ago, Bagwain said:

Ok Mr Google who didn't do the installation 12 yrs ago!

That is what is called a magnetic in the industry not a pump controller!

It is a safety mechanism. 

I never called it a pump controller, the correct name is contactor

 

8 minutes ago, Bagwain said:

If I am wrong with hundreds of instalations, why do the chlorinators have a female socket for the plug for the pump?

The female socket on my chlorinator goes to the CONTACTOR, because a pump draws too much current at start-up, hence the need for a contactor.

 

My Chlorinator is a Zodiac TRI, hardly a second grade brand

[degrub]

This string of posts just illustrates the difficulties troubleshooting over the internet.  
 

your likely best solution is to have a local company ( or the one that installed the system) come figure it out and make the repair. 
 

Without the wiring diagrams and logic, we  will only be making educated guesses and all that leads to is shouting matches.

[peterfranks]

1 hour ago, degrub said:

This string of posts just illustrates the difficulties troubleshooting over the internet.  
 

your likely best solution is to have a local company ( or the one that installed the system) come figure it out and make the repair. 
 

Without the wiring diagrams and logic, we  will only be making educated guesses and all that leads to is shouting matches.

I appreciate your contribution, as it was clear from your first comment that you understood how it is connected, which is also the correct way.

 

It is only when someone with an attitude of I know it all and everyone else is stupid, and who can't be bothered to read what I wrote, and explained again and again, enters that I get p**sed off.

 

Unfortunately I don't have a diagram, and neither is the installer available any more, so I guess replacing the contactor and switch will be the only solution.

 

I have checked all the wire connections, and they seem fine.

 

Everything is hardwired, except the connection between chlorinator and pump contactor, which uses the socket at the bottom of the chlorinator.

 

I do not think there is anything wrong with the chlorinator, otherwise simply turning the 3 way pump switch would not sort it.

 

My money is still on the switch that has bad internal contacts. The contactors are double coil.

[MrJ2U]

14 hours ago, Bagwain said:

Sounds like the timer on the chlorinator is playing up. We by pass them even on top quality machines which we only deal with (PuraPool).

The timers are the week link in all brands. Use the timer supplied in the control box for the pump & the chlorinator and just turn the chlorinator to on.

Timers hit and miss with my Emaux SST-50.

 

Brand new.  I think I'm going to plug it into a smart plug.

 

Unfortunately the installer hardwired both the pump and timer for the chlorinator.  

 

The workers in Issan seem to want to hardwire everything electric.  Dumbfounded.  Easier just to make a socket and plug the damned thing in, easier to repair. 

[peterfranks]

13 minutes ago, MrJ2U said:

The workers in Issan seem to want to hardwire everything electric. 

Why you think hardwired is less reliable? I would think the lesser connections involved the more reliable.

 

With plug in you add two connection points where something can go wrong.

 

To disconnect hardwire involves only loosening 3 screws

[degrub]

Assuming the two coils on the contactor are designed the same ( see if you can find the resistance spec online, i forget the nominal expected values) with power disconnected from the entire system, check for voltage at each wire  with your vom/dvm, mark and pull back the wires at the contactor, and measure the resistance of each coil.  They should measure approximately the same.  If the coil that the auto position feeds is much higher, it may be time to replace.

 

Regarding the switch, contact cleaner may remove enough crud to restore it, but you have to remove it from the system first and should expose the contact surfaces.
 

If the chlorinator control circuit ( timer or otherwise) is providing the PUMP ON control signal through the AUTO switch position, then a defect there ( low current through) could indeed be an issue. Too low of output plus going through a dirty switch contact combined might be enough to cause the initial start failure. Rotating the switch would disturb the crud on the switch contacts until it oxidizes again. 

The ON switch position should be directly providing current to the contactor coil to close the contacts on power feed to the pump motor proving no issue with the motor or that coil.

 

Experience is a good teacher. We do tend to jump to the most common failure in our experience for the symptoms  as the likely solution/idea for an issue when we cannot directly observe the physical reality.  Not knowing how these systems are typically designed, i would not have thought of the chlorinator. Hence my ask for the circuit drawing.  Control timers are just another set of contacts to get dirty and a motor to fail.

 

peace.

[peterfranks]

4 minutes ago, degrub said:

Regarding the switch, contact cleaner may remove enough crud to restore it, but you have to remove it from the system first and should expose the contact surfaces.
 

If the chlorinator control circuit ( timer or otherwise) is providing the PUMP ON control signal through the AUTO switch position, then a defect there ( low current through) could indeed be an issue. Too low of output plus going through a dirty switch contact combined might be enough to cause the initial start failure. Rotating the switch would disturb the crud on the switch contacts until it oxidizes again. 

Thanks, that was also my initial thought, because it happens very infrequently, like once every few months, but I started the thread to get a second opinion.

 

I will have a look tomorrow as I'm not sure if the switch can be opened to spray the contacts.

 

I will also measure the values of the wires at the contactor as mentioned.

 

I don't know what vom/dvm means. I have a multimeter, but am lost when you say, measure voltage with power disconnected, because there will be no voltage

[degrub]

Vom = voltage ohm meter - aka multimeter- what you may have

Dvm = digital version 

 

the reason to disconnect the wires from the contactor coil terminals is you may measure the resistance of something else instead  of the coil. 
 

before you touch any wires,  make sure power is disconnected from the system.  Sometimes there is only a breaker that can be turned off. The issue with breakers is that if they have had to trip in the past there can be a carbon track inside that will pass current.  I have had 120 v AC breakers that were in the off position, but it still provided 50 v at the device. Breaker had to be replaced before the work. A plug in connection is the easiest - just unplug ????. That is one reason you see plug cords on most consumer devices !

 

if there are separate power supply circuits to the chlorinator and the water pump and the controls, you should do each one as they may also connect at devices like contactors. 
 

so once you think you have disconnected or interrupted the current flow to the device you are going to test,  you can use a voltage measurement to verify at the terminal of each wire on say a contactor.  That way, if there is a fault somewhere or not all of the circuits are disconnected,  you will measure a voltage where it should be 0 relative to earth, to neutral return, and other wires on the device. If your multimeter is analog type, watch out for the indicator needle slamming against 0 as you may have reversed the  polarity. Just swap the red probe and the black probe and it should indicate properly. A DVM may handle a negative reading. 

 

If the current running through the wire is AC make sure you select AC voltage on your multimeter. Similar for DC. You can also use a neon pen tester at each wire terminal instead of a multimeter for AC circuits. When using a multimeter, some times the flexible wire to the probes gets a break, usually near the ends. You always test with a known source - AC plug for AC or a battery for DC  voltage for example just before use.

one other warning in case the pump motor has a starting capacitor.  They can be mounted on the outside of the motor case barrel or on the end opposite the shaft. These will discharge very high current instantly if shorted. If this contactor is wired directly to the motor, be very careful to not touch those terminal screws or the wires to the motor with any part of your body.  i am sure there is a safe, accepted way to discharge the capacitor, but i have only dealt with dead ones.  @Crossy ???
 

The other thing to be aware of is the bare metal on your screwdriver.  Even though the handle is insulating, sometimes we forget and touch the screwdriver metal with our other hand or to the metal box or something conductive while on the terminal. At best it is a strong shock through the arm.  We used to wrap a couple layers of 600 v electrical tape on ours to help. Now there are insulated screwdrivers available.  Another reason to verify the circuit is disconnected from power.  
 

There may be something else i am not remembering. Perhaps someone else with experience will chime in.

The above have kept me intact over the years even though i am an amateur and only work with electrical systems occasionally now. Once dropped a tool across a 12 v car battery - impressive that a neat divot in metal can be created with a few hundred amps of current in a split second. Current kills. And circuit breakers may not be fast enough.

[degrub]

7 hours ago, peterfranks said:

Why you think hardwired is less reliable? I would think the lesser connections involved the more reliable.

 

With plug in you add two connection points where something can go wrong.

 

To disconnect hardwire involves only loosening 3 screws

In a nutshell, “hardwire  to keep the consumer from injuring or killing themselves “ because they are not trained in electrical safety and handling.

[MrJ2U]

14 hours ago, peterfranks said:

Why you think hardwired is less reliable? I would think the lesser connections involved the more reliable.

 

With plug in you add two connection points where something can go wrong.

 

 

The pumps are meant to be plugged in and not hardwired.

 

It also voids the warranty. 

 

Same with the Chlorinator timer.

 

 

 

"To disconnect hardwire involves only loosening 3 screws"

 

... Or I could just unplug it and take it to the authorized dealer in Bangkok. 

 

I'm not electrics savy.  I don't want to mess with wires.  Unplugging it is much easier. 

 

These days hard wiring is not necessary. 

 

 

Edited August 24, 2022 by MrJ2U