My Degree Is My Property?

[farangteachercliche]

I saw a similar post a few months back, where you were all very helpful, my situation is slightly different so hopefully you can help me too!

Ok.......... i have been working at an 'International' school (which i won't name.....yet!) for the past year and a half. The administrator/owner is a truly criminal woman and her practices, money making and rip off schemes amaze me. As a result, i have decided to leave, however, she does actually like me and is hel_l bent on not letting me leave. She has offered all kinds of incentives for me to stay, which i have rejected, and on Friday she 'rejected' my resignation! (which I'm amazed she can do as in the contract it states 'both parties can end the contract with one months written notice')

Now usually in this situation i would just up and leave however she has the original copies of my degree and TEFL certificate (I'm stoooopid, i know!) and she has told me quite frankly that if i just leave she will not return them.

So what am i to do? She has rejected my resignation and if i just leave she keeps my original certificates that my new employer needs to process a new work permit. When i started my employment she gave me an official letter stating she has receipt of my documents, that aside, surely they are still MY documents!

I have a work permit with the school so i am 'legal' so in this situation can i call the police to assist me? Or are there any other measures i can take to ensure they are returned to me? (stealing them back is not an option as they are locked in her safe!)

Any assistance, ideas or advise are greatly appreciated.

Edited June 24, 2007 by farangteachercliche

[Jimjim]

Someone with higher authority should surely be able to help. She's basically stealing from you. This sounds like a dicey situation though as she is somewhat high in status due to her position. I'm not sure how I'd go about it but be careful.

[Jimmyd]

As long as I've been here, I still get amazed by things that happen.

Do you have a contract? If so are you trying to get out before you have fulfilled the terms of the contract? That seems relevant to this discussion.

I am not condoning the actions of the owner--they are obviously illegal. I'm just trying to fully understand the situation before I consider possible actions.

[stevemiddie]

I agree with the posters above. Take care. She is in a position of authority and you are merely a farang.

I personally would seek some advice from a lawyer. The thing to avoid at all costs is any problems that you may have with Thai police / immigration should she have some influence. ( I suspect she does )

[farangteachercliche]

I have one month remaining on my contract but after the notice period (1mth) i am out of contract.

I think from your posts consulting a lawyer will be a good step....

Thanks for ur comments.

[Jimmyd]

Perhaps you could apologetically say to the school head that in order to get the documents replaced you need to get a police report explaining why you no longer are in possession of those documents and that if she is contacted by them she should just explain her position.

On second thought, it's better to contact a lawyer. I couldn't resist sharing my devilish little plan, however.

[legaleagle]

Tell her you will stay, and sign another contract, "if" she will return your documents! See if she's as stupid as I suspect she might be!

[Jimmyd]

Tell her you will stay, and sign another contract, "if" she will return your documents! See if she's as stupid as I suspect she might be!

You mean, of course, don't really sign, just tell her you will if she returns the documents. In no circumstances sign a new contract!

I don't really agree with this approach. If you lie, you sink to the owner's snakelike level and open yourself up to anger.

[legaleagle]

Sorry, but I see the situation as one of "eat or be eaten". Being a gentleman about the whole situation seems to be a bit ridiculous. Do whatever it takes to get the docs back in hand.

[Jimmyd]

Sorry, but I see the situation as one of "eat or be eaten". Being a gentleman about the whole situation seems to be a bit ridiculous. Do whatever it takes to get the docs back in hand.

I understand your position, and have no sympathy for the owner--she deserves punishment as far as I'm concerned. However, creating bad feeling can come back to bite you in unexpected ways. It is best to tread lightly and minimize ill will whenever possible.

[Whitey]

Sorry, but I see the situation as one of "eat or be eaten". Being a gentleman about the whole situation seems to be a bit ridiculous. Do whatever it takes to get the docs back in hand.

I understand your position, and have no sympathy for the owner--she deserves punishment as far as I'm concerned. However, creating bad feeling can come back to bite you in unexpected ways. It is best to tread lightly and minimize ill will whenever possible.

My simple suggestion in this matter is to kindly inform her that it would be a shame for her to do that because in order to order replacements, you would need to visit the local police station to file an affadavit that your papers were missing and that unfortunately the police would have to mark that they were stolen. Explain that you would need this affadavit to take to the US Embassy who would issue a letter confirming to your school that you did indeed have your degree stolen. Unfortunately, the US government may put her name in some sort of a computer as being a criminal. Explain that you surely would hate to see that happen because you have had such a good relationship.

[legaleagle]

I hear ya Jimmyd but do you have any concrete advice to get the docs back? Or are you just going to minimise the ill will and run the risk of ending up without docs in hand?

[Jimmyd]

legaleagle, I made a suggestion similar to the good one whitey made (but whitey fleshed it out and made it much more do-able). I also agreed with others that seeing a lawyer was a good idea. If you do these things indirectly, there is less chance of backlash in my opinion (though I could be wrong).

Whitey, the way you phrase it, it might just work! I'm still leaning towards an intermediary because of the backlash issue, but the way you lay things out is brilliant.

Edited June 24, 2007 by Jimmyd

[legaleagle]

legaleagle, I made a suggestion similar to the good one whitey made (but whitey fleshed it out and made it much more do-able). I also agreed with others that seeing a lawyer was a good idea. If you do these things indirectly, there is less chance of backlash in my opinion (though I could be wrong).

Whitey, the way you phrase it, it might just work! I'm still leaning towards an intermediary because of the backlash issue, but the way you lay things out is brilliant.

Cheers guys. Best of luck to the OP!

[hugekebab]

Dont threaten legal action; this is always a bad idea. either seek the advice of a lawyer, or go about getting the docs back by social means (e.g. ass kissing, begging, getting on her good side) do one or the other, but never ever threaten legal action, thats a solicitor's job.

[stickman]

I would assertively tell her to return those items to you immediately. If she fails to do so, I would go to the police. She will return them immediately when they come knocking. She is just playing a game with you and exploiting weakness. Don't allow yourself to be a victim.

So long as you are legal, I doubt she would do much. Schools do not want to draw undue negative attention to themselves.

It is a rather sad situation and I empathise with you. It is women like this who give the profession a bad name. And that it is an international school makes it even worse.

Best of luck to you.

[Jimmyd]

You make a good case. I'd be very curious to see how the policeman reacted when confronted with this situation.

[farangteachercliche]

Thank you all so much for your comments.

Today i contacted a law firm who were adamant that my documents are my property and her actions are indeed illegal. They have offered a few ways of approaching this situation..... for quite a large fee.

Tomorrow i will be visiting my local police station to see if they will be able to assist me.

I'm just hoping over the course of the weekend she will have had a chance to reflect upon her words and had a change of heart........ but knowing her i doubt it!

Look out for a new post on Schools i DON'T recommend!!!!

Edited June 24, 2007 by farangteachercliche

[PeaceBlondie]

I think Whitey's advice sounds best. Can you be 100% sure under Thai law that your documents were STOLEN if you gave them to somebody and received a receipt? No. You cannot depend on the free legal advice you've been given here or at a lawyer's office. If you go to her and tell her that you want to protect her from any accusations of having stolen your documents, and the embassy treatment as you understand it, you do no wrong. False accusations of theft might make you a criminal (slander, defamation).

[Jimmyd]

False accusations of theft might make you a criminal (slander, defamation).

Is that true in a private conversation? That's not my understanding.

[Jimmyd]

Upon reflection, I think farangteachercliche has the right idea. Go talk to the police, get their reaction. If they seem to be sympathetic, proceed cautiously.

If they seem unresponsive, go to the embassy and see what they say. I think making empty threats is dangerous.

[PeaceBlondie]

False accusations of theft might make you a criminal (slander, defamation).

Is that true in a private conversation? That's not my understanding.

I'm referring to the idea of reporting to the police that a school official has 'stolen' a document.

[observer21]

I saw a similar post a few months back, where you were all very helpful, my situation is slightly different so hopefully you can help me too!

Ok.......... i have been working at an 'International' school (which i won't name.....yet!) for the past year and a half. The administrator/owner is a truly criminal woman and her practices, money making and rip off schemes amaze me. As a result, i have decided to leave, however, she does actually like me and is hel_l bent on not letting me leave. She has offered all kinds of incentives for me to stay, which i have rejected, and on Friday she 'rejected' my resignation! (which I'm amazed she can do as in the contract it states 'both parties can end the contract with one months written notice')

Now usually in this situation i would just up and leave however she has the original copies of my degree and TEFL certificate (I'm stoooopid, i know!) and she has told me quite frankly that if i just leave she will not return them.

So what am i to do? She has rejected my resignation and if i just leave she keeps my original certificates that my new employer needs to process a new work permit. When i started my employment she gave me an official letter stating she has receipt of my documents, that aside, surely they are still MY documents!

I have a work permit with the school so i am 'legal' so in this situation can i call the police to assist me? Or are there any other measures i can take to ensure they are returned to me? (stealing them back is not an option as they are locked in her safe!)

Any assistance, ideas or advise are greatly appreciated.

Why not leave anyway - after serving your notice - and then contact her formaly asking for the return of your documents. Inform her that you have copied your request to your Embassy due to her prior refusal to return them.  However, let her believe that you are back in your own country and that you will have a friend pick them up.

Also tell her that you have contacted the Thai Embassy in your country and they intend to assist in thier return if she continues to hold them illegally.

When your gone and she believes you have left Thailand she has nothing to gain - but bad publicity.

[Jimmyd]

False accusations of theft might make you a criminal (slander, defamation).

Is that true in a private conversation? That's not my understanding.

I'm referring to the idea of reporting to the police that a school official has 'stolen' a document.

I see. Even there, I'm not sure. I'd be interested in hearing the answer. If indeed that might be slander or defamation, farangteachercliche could simply ask the police advice as to how to retrieve the documents.

Upon looking at your post where you state that farangteachercliche may be in trouble if he or she accepted a receipt for the documents, I no longer feel that is relevant unless the document farangteachercliche signed allows the school to keep the document for a certain period of time. I find it hard to believe that would be the case.

[bino]

Wow- these documents are turning into an international scandal!

When your gone and she believes you have left Thailand she has nothing to gain - but bad publicity.

I don't think this is a good idea. If she thinks you have left Thailand, she will probably trash the documents, and play stupid / say she doesn't have them.

[Ijustwannateach]

Lots of good advice here, OP, but the best involves talking to the lady one more time to make it clear that the next step is that she won't be talking to you anymore but some more serious Thai authority that will make trouble for her. Since she is apparently lazy, criminal, and stupid enough to think that illegally holding your degree will lead to less trouble for her, I imagine being faced with such consequences will have her hopping to get those documents in your hand.

[aussiestyle1983]

I hope for your sake you don't have to stupe to the level of your boss, but I was in a similar situation in the past and this is how I handeled it.

My school refused to give me back some of my teaching aids that I had bought elsewhere when I asked where they were. I said they were mine anyway and I needed to use them for teaching at my other job on the wekend. They said that they were at another campus but I knew this was <deleted> because another teacher was using them the day before. Anyway, the refuesed to give them back to me so I collected all 440 of my students workbooks and took them to a friends house in the afternoon (this was a few days before the books were suppose to be returned to the patents) The next day when I asked for my teaching aids back and they said no, I told them I would not return the students workbooks. The school said I could not take them from the school bewcause they would stop me but I told them it was too late, I allready took them home to finish marking them a few days ago. Within 10 mins, my class was interupted and I was taken to my office where all my teaching aids were sitting on my desk. My boss said sorry. i said "That was quick, I thought they were at another campus" I got no reply to that but they knew I caught them out lying. They just told me that they didn't want me to take my teaching aids because they thought I would not return. I just said they were mine and I could do what I want with them and they should just be greatful I even left them at the school for other teachers to use.

Anyway, you might have to play dirty. As others have said, if you get the police or others involved they may not help you anyway or the school might make it harder for you. Just blackmail them the same way they have blackmailed you and see how they handle it. I took the students books home because I knew the parents would stir up shit if their kids didn't get the special little workbooks back. It's not good to do this, but like someone else said, eat or be eaten. You can play dirty because your school had done the dirty on you.

[Loaded]

She lost face when you resigned possibly because you're a popular teacher and it will embarrass her to inform parents and other teachers. In this type of situation it's far better to lie so that she doesn't lose face - "my sister is seriously ill and I must return to support my parents". No face lost.

Going to the police is risky. I agree with PB that it's very unlikely a criminal action has taken place PLUS she will stitch you up. She has money, she's speaks Thai and she's a puyai. You're a farang.

The solicitor will say anything to get your work PLUS he may then appraoach the accused to work out a deal to suit him, her but not you. You won't know what's going on.

If you haven't already commited yourself to a particular reason for leaving, you could go to her again and explain the situation about your sister. Don't be confrontational, allow her to be the puyai and ask for her help. You could tell her "The docs say only a few weeks left and I need to be on the next flight to support my family. I will return but I need the certificates to open a bank account (or any bs you can think of)" Oh and give her a present - picture of your 'dying' sister.

Edited June 25, 2007 by Loaded

[glaitong]

Contact the Labor Department for advice.

[pattyboy]

I like the idea of testing the water a bit by telling her that you've contacted your embassy about the situation and were advised by them to report it to the police. Go on to say that you have nothing against her and would hate for the situation to escalate to one involving the police but feel that you must follow your embassy's advice if it can't be resolved within the school (i.e. giving you back your rightful property). I suspect that once she sees you're very serious about this and hears references to the embassy and the police, she will finally come around. If she continues to ignore your request to return your documents then I really would start an official process by seeking advice from your embassy - I suspect they will tell you to get the police involved. And that makes sense as it is a case of theft. If you're working here legally, I really don't think the police are going to make trouble for you.

Edited June 25, 2007 by pattyboy