BREXIT; The scorecard 2 years on .

[Social Media]

• It is 50 years since Britain joined Europe, and two years since it exited the single market. As the Covid effect fades, it is a bit easier to see the Brexit effect.

• The report card on Brexit is not reassuring, either on growth, inflation, business costs or on the impact across economic growth or productivity. Some companies are gaining from Brexit, where they can substitute for EU firms that are no longer willing to export to the UK.

• Trade links with Northern Ireland remain uncertain and unresolved, while a battle looms over the stripping of legacy EU laws from British legislation.

[robblok]

There is already a topic about this with the usual suspects denying these facts. But good one expect a storm of comments.

[youreavinalaff]

6 hours ago, robblok said:

There is already a topic about this with the usual suspects denying these facts. But good one expect a storm of comments.

The other topic is about Brexit being a failure or success. I, for one, gave tried to explain it is impossible to say, so far, as it is ongoing.

 

The above is far more debatable as it is talking about what has happened so far.

[RayC]

1 hour ago, youreavinalaff said:

The other topic is about Brexit being a failure or success. I, for one, gave tried to explain it is impossible to say, so far, as it is ongoing.

 

The above is far more debatable as it is talking about what has happened so far.

So what defines the moment when we can turn around and say, "Ok, has Brexit been a success or a failure?" or does that day never come?

[youreavinalaff]

2 minutes ago, RayC said:

So what defines the moment when we can turn around and say, "Ok, has Brexit been a success or a failure?" or does that day never come?

One cannot put a time on it. Should UK rejoin, thus Brexit cease, that would be a good time to be able to evaluate.

 

In the mean time, any opinion should be followed by " up to this point in time" or similar.

[Chomper Higgot]

I was about to post a comment on the other thread along the lines of ‘Somebody has noticed the elephant in the room’.

 

Which is clearly the case.

 

Public opinion is moving steadily against BREXIT, the outcome of which needs to be brought to where it belongs, in the center of UK political and public discourse.

 

I believe the recent trickle of articles discussing BREXIT’s obvious failure will only increase, and public opinion will increasingly follow.

 

At some point, I suspect sooner than later, politicians will get over their fear of discussing the observable fact that BREXIT is damaging the UK.

 

The silence of politicians on this issue is, to my mind, an indication of just how disconnected politicians have become from the people they are elected to serve.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 2, 2023 by Chomper Higgot

[Mac Mickmanus]

1 hour ago, RayC said:

So what defines the moment when we can turn around and say, "Ok, has Brexit been a success or a failure?" or does that day never come?

Remainers have been saying Brexit is a failure since day 1 and they've been saying it ever since and they will continue to keep saying it over and over and over again .

   The "day came" on the very day we left the E.U 

[RayC]

49 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

One cannot put a time on it. Should UK rejoin, thus Brexit cease, that would be a good time to be able to evaluate.

 

In the mean time, any opinion should be followed by " up to this point in time" or similar.

I am confused. In order for the UK to consider rejoining the EU, surely there has to be an evaluation of the effects caused by our leaving the EU in January 2020 beforehand? One possibility is to pick a date e.g. 2035. I would suggest that 15+ years is ample time to gauge the effects and have a better idea of what the post-Brexit future would hold. However, you reject this idea.

 

In that case, the only other alternatives are either 1) some other set of characteristics/ conditions/ events which trigger the evaluation. (What would these be?) or 2) no evaluation ever takes take. If things continue on the same trajectory as currently - and there is no indication that things are likely to improve - that doesn't seem to be the best course of action. 

 

(I agree that to be absolutely grammatically correct, any opinion should be sufficed by "up to this point in time", however - as some Brexiters continually remind Remainers - no one can predict the future, so doing so seems rather unnecessary)

[RayC]

7 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Remainers have been saying Brexit is a failure since day 1 and they've been saying it ever since and they will continue to keep saying it over and over and over again .

   The "day came" on the very day we left the E.U 

So no evaluation of events? No reversing bad decisions in any circumstances? Very rational.

[youreavinalaff]

17 minutes ago, RayC said:

I am confused. In order for the UK to consider rejoining the EU, surely there has to be an evaluation of the effects caused by our leaving the EU in January 2020 beforehand? One possibility is to pick a date e.g. 2035. I would suggest that 15+ years is ample time to gauge the effects and have a better idea of what the post-Brexit future would hold. However, you reject this idea.

 

In that case, the only other alternatives are either 1) some other set of characteristics/ conditions/ events which trigger the evaluation. (What would these be?) or 2) no evaluation ever takes take. If things continue on the same trajectory as currently - and there is no indication that things are likely to improve - that doesn't seem to be the best course of action. 

 

(I agree that to be absolutely grammatically correct, any opinion should be sufficed by "up to this point in time", however - as some Brexiters continually remind Remainers - no one can predict the future, so doing so seems rather unnecessary)

By using "up to this point" you are not predicting the future.

 

That is why it should be used.

 

I have never rejected the idea of evaluations. However, the results should be " it is failing" or " it is being successful", up to that point.

[Mac Mickmanus]

21 minutes ago, RayC said:

So no evaluation of events? No reversing bad decisions in any circumstances? Very rational.

Nope, keep going forward and stop thinking about how things could have been different if you acted differently .

   The UK left the E.U, now lets go forward and get on with it and walk together towards those sunny uplands 

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Remainers have been saying Brexit is a failure since day 1 and they've been saying it ever since and they will continue to keep saying it over and over and over again .

   The "day came" on the very day we left the E.U 

And the data keeps backing them up.

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Nope, keep going forward and stop thinking about how things could have been different if you acted differently .

   The UK left the E.U, now lets go forward and get on with it and walk together towards those sunny uplands 

Show us the way, point out a few tangible benefits that mark the path.

 

 

[MRToMRT]

I read something interesting this morning (Guardian) in that even 6 years on, UK and Spain/EU have still not resolved the agreement for a post EU Gibraltar and the deadline is looming or its a hard brexit for Gibraltar. 

 

Did the UK vote for this ............. quote below from Gib authorities........

 

“This will be a different world where our interactions with Spain and with the EU will be more cumbersome, bureaucratic and time-consuming than anything we have known before.”

Edited January 3, 2023 by MRToMRT

[ozimoron]

13 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Show us the way, point out a few tangible benefits that mark the path.

Racists got to cut their nose off to spite their face? Could that be counted as a benefit? How about the right wing press made a motza pushing the leave vote?

[RayC]

15 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Nope, keep going forward and stop thinking about how things could have been different if you acted differently .

No point discussing this further. We have completely different opinions and are poles apart.

 

15 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

   The UK left the E.U, now lets go forward and get on with it and walk together towards those sunny uplands 

At least two major assumptions there, namely that 1) the sunny uplands actually exist (there hasn't been a sighting of them yet) 2) Even if they do exist, we need to get out of the quicksand we're currently in pdq. We're in danger of going under anytime soon.

[OneMoreFarang]

The Guardian has lots of interesting "pictures" about Brexit. ????

 

 

Edited January 3, 2023 by OneMoreFarang

[OneMoreFarang]

17 minutes ago, RayC said:

the sunny uplands actually exist (there hasn't been a sighting of them yet)

That reminds me of this wonderful story:

Los Angeles county grants girl license to own a unicorn -- if she can find one | CNN

 

[RayC]

16 hours ago, youreavinalaff said:

By using "up to this point" you are not predicting the future.

 

That is why it should be used.

Imo the context will make it intuitively obvious whether the subject under discussion is in the past or the future, so adding "up to this point" seems rather superfluous. However, as you wish, I will try to remember to add the phrase - if appropriate - in any future exchange with you.

 

16 hours ago, youreavinalaff said:

 

I have never rejected the idea of evaluations. However, the results should be " it is failing" or " it is being successful", up to that point.

But that still doesn't answer my question. If now is too soon to judge the success of Brexit, what are the circumstances whereby a government would draw a line in the sand and say, 'Right, has Brexit been a success? What do we need to change?' (Note: The outcome will not be perfect. Surely even the most ardent Brexit supporter will accept that?).

 

You say that you don't reject the idea of evaluations. Fair enough, but an evaluation for its' own sake is a waste of time. It must have a 'raison d'etre' i.e. what actions might improve the current situation. In the case of Brexit, rejoining the Customs Union and/or the Single Market or the EU itself would be possible options.

[Chomper Higgot]

BREXIT, that ‘great British victory’ the ‘victors’ don’t like talking about.

 

 

[Mac Mickmanus]

42 minutes ago, RayC said:

No point discussing this further. We have completely different opinions and are poles apart.

 

At least two major assumptions there, namely that 1) the sunny uplands actually exist (there hasn't been a sighting of them yet) 2) Even if they do exist, we need to get out of the quicksand we're currently in pdq. We're in danger of going under anytime soon.

I am liking post Brexit UK very much , so much so that I decided not to go back to Thailand . Its nice to have England back again , rather than just being an island off western Europe

[JonnyF]

14 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

BREXIT, that ‘great British victory’ the ‘victors’ don’t like talking about.

 

 

We're not still talking about our women winning Euro 2022 either.

 

Or our men winning the 2022 T20 cricket world cup.

 

It's called being humble in victory. It's a shame the losers can't be gracious in defeat, then we wouldn't still have to listen to them still whining years after the event.

 

 

[RayC]

3 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

I am liking post Brexit UK very much , so much so that I decided not to go back to Thailand . Its nice to have England back again , rather than just being an island off western Europe

Many will disagree with you. 

 

Anyway, I'm pleased for you, Mac. As a Londoner I'm sure that you have heard of Eel Pie Island? If you feel that you want to withdraw further from the world and become even more insular, moving there might be an idea????

[Chomper Higgot]

4 hours ago, JonnyF said:

We're not still talking about our women winning Euro 2022 either.

 

Or our men winning the 2022 T20 cricket world cup.

 

It's called being humble in victory. It's a shame the losers can't be gracious in defeat, then we wouldn't still have to listen to them still whining years after the event.

 

 

I suspect it’s something to do with BREXIT being a Pyrrhic Victory.

 

To bastardize Plutarch:

 

‘One more victory like that and we’ll be ruined.’

[Mac Mickmanus]

3 hours ago, RayC said:

Many will disagree with you. 

 

Anyway, I'm pleased for you, Mac. As a Londoner I'm sure that you have heard of Eel Pie Island? If you feel that you want to withdraw further from the world and become even more insular, moving there might be an idea????

I was there last summer actually , had a lovely long walk from Richmond to Ham along the river  , across the river and then back to Richmond via Twickenham and went past the bridge to Eel Pie Island , didn't actually go into EPI as it looked quite private .

  I didnt often go to Mainland Europe pre Brexit , so I haven't become more insular post Brexit , I am more of a India, Turkey , Gambia kind of guy, rather than a Benidorm and Aya Napia kind of guy , thanks for the suggestion though

[Mac Mickmanus]

4 hours ago, RayC said:

Many will disagree with you. 

 

Anyway, I'm pleased for you, Mac. As a Londoner I'm sure that you have heard of Eel Pie Island? If you feel that you want to withdraw further from the world and become even more insular, moving there might be an idea????

What makes you say that I have withdrawn from the World and have become insular ?

   There's only a slight bit of difference between post and pre Brexit UK , the main difference is that isn't many European young backpackers who "lets go to London and get a job and work there for a few years" kind of people  , gap year students who want to work abroad somewhere for a while , some places in London were like Koh Phan Peckham