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Heaven or Hell, Which Will Be Your Final Destination?

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I honestly don’t understand why people spend so much of their lives worrying about whether they’re going to heaven or hell. How do we actually know either one exists? Because an ancient book says so? Written by people who were alive thousands of years ago and had no more ability to verify what happens after death than we do today?

Somehow we’re supposed to accept that somebody who was alive, just like us when they wrote the book, figured out what happens after you die and then shared it whey the rest of humanity.

And then we’re all supposed to spend our lives worrying about whether we’re following those rules correctly? But then there is the problem that most religions don’t even agree on what those rules are. One religion says heaven and hell. Another has a completely different idea about the afterlife. Another says you’re reincarnated. So which one gets it right? If there’s really an eternal destination waiting for all of us, you’d think somebody could produce one clear set of instructions on how to get there which everybody can then agree on.

Honestly, the whole thing seems merely like a way to control people. Think about the world thousands of years ago. No police, no courts, no modern surveillance, no way of keeping track of what people were doing all the time. So how do you convince people to behave themselves? Tell them there’s an invisible being watching everything they do, promise them eternal happiness if they behave, and threaten them with eternal torture if they don’t. Perfect!

You don’t even have to catch them doing anything wrong. They’ll police themselves because they’re afraid of what happens after they die. So pretending that fear and control played no role in conjuring any of this seems pretty naive.

And what about animals? Does my dog go to heaven? Does my cat go to hell? What about a chimpanzee? Do animals have souls? If they don’t, why are humans so special? If they do, does that mean every animal has its own version of the afterlife? And are animals somehow being judged on whether they lived a morally acceptable life? Obviously they’re not sitting around worrying about any of this. They eat, sleep, survive and eventually die. Humans are the ones who invented elaborate explanations about what happens afterward and then spent thousands of years arguing over whose explanation is correct.

Maybe heaven exists. Maybe hell exists. Maybe something completely different happens when we die. I don’t know, and neither does anyone else. That’s really the part that gets me. Saying “I don’t know what happens after death” seems perfectly reasonable. Saying “I know exactly what happens after death because an ancient book tells me” is a completely different approach. You can believe it. That’s your choice. But belief and knowledge aren’t the same thing.

Maybe there are both good and bad places we might get sent to in the afterlife. Who knows. But if this whole thing was invented by humans, you’ve got to admit it’s one "hell" of an idea. Give people an invisible reward for being good, an invisible punishment for being bad, convince them that an invisible authority created the rules, and thousands of years later they’re still terrified about where they’re going when they die. If that was the plan, whoever came up with it certainly understood human psychology. Well done Santa Clause!

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  • spidermike007
    spidermike007

    As a student of cosmology I definitely believe that there are millions of advanced civilizations in the universe far more advanced than ours. However due to the distance I seriously doubt that aliens

  • spidermike007
    spidermike007

    I don't believe in the traditional religious concept or heaven or hell. What I do believe is that we create heaven and hell right here on earth, on a daily basis, with our own lives, our attitudes, ou

  • Unless the Great Filter in the Fermi paradox is real, and advanced civilizations tend to reach a point they simply do not survive beyond, possibly because of their own technology. Remember, it took a

The question is: What happens to our consciousness when our body dies?

There are plenty of instances - apparently well-attested ie not just made up - of strange things happening that are not within our daily experience of the world:

  • Young children who can describe in detail worthy of a professional physicist life on another planet 'where they used to live'

  • People who simply disappear and reappear 20 years later wearing the same clothes and looking around in astonishment at the new world to which they have returned. They thought they'd only 'been away' a few days

  • Post mortem experiences of an afterlife, recounted when they return to consciousness in their hospital bed.

And then there's the numerous accounts by serious people (ie not just you & me, but for instance US military) of encounters here on earth with alien people from faraway planets.

Before all of which a RATIONAL person keeps an open mind.

I don't believe in the traditional religious concept or heaven or hell. What I do believe is that we create heaven and hell right here on earth, on a daily basis, with our own lives, our attitudes, our perspective, and the way we live.

26 minutes ago, mfd101 said:

The question is: What happens to our consciousness when our body dies?

There are plenty of instances - apparently well-attested ie not just made up - of strange things happening that are not within our daily experience of the world:

  • Young children who can describe in detail worthy of a professional physicist life on another planet 'where they used to live'

  • People who simply disappear and reappear 20 years later wearing the same clothes and looking around in astonishment at the new world to which they have returned. They thought they'd only 'been away' a few days

  • Post mortem experiences of an afterlife, recounted when they return to consciousness in their hospital bed.

And then there's the numerous accounts by serious people (ie not just you & me, but for instance US military) of encounters here on earth with alien people from faraway planets.

Before all of which a RATIONAL person keeps an open mind.

As a student of cosmology I definitely believe that there are millions of advanced civilizations in the universe far more advanced than ours. However due to the distance I seriously doubt that aliens have ever visited earth.

We are a speck of galactic dust. There are thousands of galaxies within our local Virgo supercluster, spanning 100 million light years, just in this relatively small part of the universe. Our supercluster is but one part of a larger cluster, called Laniakea, consisting of 100,000 large galaxies, spanning 400 million light years. And that is part of an infinite universe, with over 100 billion galaxies. And now some folks like Brian Cox are theorizing that the reality is closer to two trillion galaxies. Each galaxy has how many solar systems? How many planets and stars? And what about the possibility of a multiverse? 

And many somehow use their intellects to presume it is nothing but empty space. Why? Because it cannot be proven? That is a weak argument. We are the chosen ones? That is sheer hubris, and a statistical near impossibility.

In addition to the distance if they were truly advanced and they knew what we were like, they would say as far away as possible. What could we possibly have to offer them?

6 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

However due to the distance I seriously doubt that aliens have ever visited earth.

My one qualification of your comments is this one: If you travel at or near the speed of light, distances are hugely reduced [but I'm not a scientist so can't quite put that in appropriate language].

Heaven or Hell - or the Nothingness of Nihilism, Which Will Be Your Final Destination?

There! Fixed if for you. thumbsup You forgot the atheists who lose sleep over these matters.

1 hour ago, Kyoto Kyle said:

honestly don’t understand why people spend so much of their lives worrying about whether they’re going to heaven or hell.

Most people don't think about it. They just want to die without pain.

Ring around the rosie,

A pocket full of posies,

Ashes, ashes,

We all fall down.

Oh no, here we go again, all we need now is wiggy, frogs, the tourist, nova and swissle and a simple question about ancient fables gets turned into another week of tug of war.

1 hour ago, mfd101 said:

What happens to our consciousness when our body dies?

Elementary! If the body dies, means the brain and heart stop functioning. That just means everything else is lost as well.

Relax.....when you're dead, you're dead......end of.

Maybe heaven and hell have less to do with where you go when you die, and more to do with what you carry while you are alive.

If you can live with yourself, free of guilt, sleep well and look in the mirror without needing to explain yourself to yourself, that sounds pretty close to heaven.

If you spend your life carrying guilt, regret, fear and things you hope nobody ever finds out about, you may already have built your own little hell.

3 minutes ago, Hummin said:

If you spend your life carrying guilt, regret, fear and things you hope nobody ever finds out about, you may already have built your own little hell.

Some geezers simply define hell on earth as an eight letter word: marriage.

1 hour ago, spidermike007 said:

As a student of cosmology I definitely believe that there are millions of advanced civilizations in the universe far more advanced than ours. However due to the distance I seriously doubt that aliens have ever visited earth.

We are a speck of galactic dust. There are thousands of galaxies within our local Virgo supercluster, spanning 100 million light years, just in this relatively small part of the universe. Our supercluster is but one part of a larger cluster, called Laniakea, consisting of 100,000 large galaxies, spanning 400 million light years. And that is part of an infinite universe, with over 100 billion galaxies. And now some folks like Brian Cox are theorizing that the reality is closer to two trillion galaxies. Each galaxy has how many solar systems? How many planets and stars? And what about the possibility of a multiverse? 

And many somehow use their intellects to presume it is nothing but empty space. Why? Because it cannot be proven? That is a weak argument. We are the chosen ones? That is sheer hubris, and a statistical near impossibility.

In addition to the distance if they were truly advanced and they knew what we were like, they would say as far away as possible. What could we possibly have to offer them?

Unless the Great Filter in the Fermi paradox is real, and advanced civilizations tend to reach a point they simply do not survive beyond, possibly because of their own technology.

Remember, it took about 4.5 billion years for technological intelligence to appear on Earth. We have always lived on the edge of the sword, but now there is one major difference. We are capable of creating things that could destroy us before nature does.

2 hours ago, Kyoto Kyle said:

I honestly don’t understand why people spend so much of their lives worrying about whether they’re going to heaven or hell.

Who says either one is a "final destination"?

The Bible does, but it doesn't mean it works that way.

Let's say you lived a good life and the Gods want to reward you. You may be in some positive corner of the Universe for a while, but maybe then you need to move on and do something else, maybe even come back to Earth.

I'm Pastafarian, and looks to a Heaven with a beer volcano — they've promised me that there is a small extra crater with rum — and a stripper factory. Not that bad a future after the Earthly Paradise-live down here on Samui once ends...😇

9 minutes ago, Gary The Git said:

Some geezers simply define hell on earth as an eight letter word: marriage.

While others define it as heaven, and most maybe something in between? And those who define marriage as hell haven’t understood they are the ones carrying the key, not the women. They actually have a choice.

6 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

Who says either one is a "final destination"?

The Bible does, but it doesn't mean it works that way.

Let's say you lived a good life and the Gods want to reward you. You may be in some positive corner of the Universe for a while, but maybe then you need to move on and do something else, maybe even come back to Earth.

Do you believe in the promised bonus?

1 hour ago, mfd101 said:

My one qualification of your comments is this one: If you travel at or near the speed of light, distances are hugely reduced [but I'm not a scientist so can't quite put that in appropriate language].

Travel at the speed of light is only possible for particles with Zero or near zero mass, such as Photons, anything with mass would require infinite energy to move. E = mc2. That's why Aliens have never visited us and never will and why inter- stellar travel, in any meaningful time scale for humans, is a pipe dream.

On heaven and hell, neither exists. Human beings are just complex chemical factories and when the factory closes down, the body rots, or is burnt and its quantum particles revert back to the Quantum World, from whence they came. There is no after life, no separate consciousness, no left over spirit. They were all invented by early humans to explain away death and the fear it engenders.

I'll be dead, care factor = zero.

12 minutes ago, Hummin said:

While others define it as heaven, and most maybe something in between? And those who define marriage as hell haven’t understood they are the ones carrying the key, not the women. They actually have a choice.

This is one song for that, sung by many including me

Well, I heard some people talkin' just the other day
And they said you were gonna put me on a shelf
But let me tell you I got some news for you
And you'll soon find out it's true
And then you'll have to eat your lunch all by yourself

'Cause I'm already gone
And I'm feelin' strong
I will sing this victory song
Woo-hoo-hoo, my, my, woo-hoo-hoo

The letter that you wrote me
Made me stop and wonder why
But I guess you felt like you had to set things right
Just remember this, my girl, when you look up in the sky
You can see the stars and still not see the light
(That's right)

And I'm already gone
And I'm feelin' strong
I will sing this victory song
Woo-hoo-hoo, my, my, woo-hoo-hoo

Well, I know it wasn't you who held me down
Heaven knows it wasn't you who set me free
So oftentimes it happens that we live our lives in chains
And we never even know we have the key

But me, I'm already gone
And I'm feelin' strong
I will sing (I will sing) this victory song
'Cause I'm already gone
Yes, I'm already gone
And I'm feelin' strong
I will sing this victory song
'Cause I'm already gone

Yes, I'm already gone
Already gone
All right, nighty-night
Already gone
Already gone...................https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1Zcffw76qM&t=3s

1 hour ago, khaosokman said:

Most people don't think about it. They just want to die without pain.

Orange man does. He’s even spoken publicly about where he expects to take up residence, having already admitted where he belongs.

1 hour ago, mfd101 said:

My one qualification of your comments is this one: If you travel at or near the speed of light, distances are hugely reduced [but I'm not a scientist so can't quite put that in appropriate language].

Even if an alien civilization mastered traveling at the speed of light it's still likely that the trip would take 60 years to reach a relatively close by planet. So they would not only have to master some advanced form of fusion but in addition to that some form of stasis so that the decades would be minimized. Also you have to take into account the time continuum factor, whereby traveling vast distances in space the entire time continuum becomes completely different from that on the native planet. So a 60-year trip might actually be 400 years in home time.

My contention was not that space travel was impossible or unlikely it was more that aliens would have no reason to visit earth as they would have nothing to learn from us.

Based on our behavior here and the amount of regression we've experienced the last 30 years, I would say that we're not only not a particularly advanced civilization, rather we're probably one of the least advanced civilizations in our section of our galaxy.

I don't worry about Heaven or Hell, because there is no evidence for either. When I die I will rot, or become ashes if cremated.

My evidence for the statement is grounded in general anesthesia, which I have had multiple times.

My brain is disconnected from my body. One minute I am in the operating room, the next I am in the recovery room. The time of 15-30 minutes between does not exist for me

So if the anesthetist makes a mistake, and disconnects my brain permanently. time will not exist for eternity.

According to Christopher Hitchens, homo sapiens came into being about 100,000 years ago. Life expectancy was 25 years, rotting teeth and sepsis killed most humans.

Organized religions started about 5000 years ago. Therefore, if theistic religions are to be believed, for 95,000 years a god watched on while we suffered and died, doing nothing.

It's a pretty good argument religions are man-made.

Neither ,I will return to dust and be one with the earth again,just

recycle myself ...

regards worgeordie

41 minutes ago, Hummin said:

Do you believe in the promised bonus?

I don't know what you're talking about.

41 minutes ago, Dr Oaktree said:

They were all invented by early humans to explain away death and the fear it engenders.

No, your theory needs refinement because Hell engenders even more fear than death.

If that were the case, they would just assure everyone they are going to Heaven.

7 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

No, your theory needs refinement because Hell engenders even more fear than death.

If that were the case, they would just assure everyone they are going to Heaven.

You are missing the point. Hell was the counter used by religion to control the masses. Heaven was the prize if you conformed, hell was where you were told you would go if you didn't. Religions are nothing more than manipulative control mechanisms and have been since the dawn of modern humans .

5 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

No, your theory needs refinement because Hell engenders even more fear than death.

If that were the case, they would just assure everyone they are going to Heaven.

This brings up a thought. Many people think that God should show himself to prove he exists. Yes, it would be a lot easier to have everyone believe but that takes away the important reasonings behind free will, faith and fear.

It makes sense that God wants us to believe by faith and not fear of hell, which would have us show love for him and not looking at him as a warden in a prison, the prison being earth. Fear of doing anything wrong and going to hell. Instead looking at him as some have referred, as our father in heaven. A child isn't supposed to fear his parents but respect their authority. Those who control by beatings instill fear, and those children might end up doing it to their own children as that's all they know.

Showing your children love, all the while showing them you are the boss and should be respected and followed is a better choice than having them fear you because you're bigger and stronger.

The same with God.

Wanting to follow him because he has shown us what he's capable of in the great things the earth has, and not the bad that are there as teaching and learning aids, with many showing care for others, developing medicines, therapy and other cares to help other humans and animals.

Many that believe look at diseases as a curse from God but they also can be looked at as those tools to help others. Those that say a God wouldn't allow such evil to occur, not realizing we aren't supposed to live forever but die and then live forever in heaven, a much better place than earth.

He gave us free will to choose our path. We aren't supposed to be controlled puppets but free thinking humans. I'm going to heaven. With all the things on earth that are great, there are bad, and heaven might have all the good without the bad, and much more.

Edited by fredwiggy

36 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

I don't worry about Heaven or Hell, because there is no evidence for either. When I die I will rot, or become ashes if cremated.

My evidence for the statement is grounded in general anesthesia, which I have had multiple times.

My brain is disconnected from my body. One minute I am in the operating room, the next I am in the recovery room. The time of 15-30 minutes between does not exist for me

So if the anesthetist makes a mistake, and disconnects my brain permanently. time will not exist for eternity.

According to Christopher Hitchens, homo sapiens came into being about 100,000 years ago. Life expectancy was 25 years, rotting teeth and sepsis killed most humans.

Organized religions started about 5000 years ago. Therefore, if theistic religions are to be believed, for 95,000 years a god watched on while we suffered and died, doing nothing.

It's a pretty good argument religions are man-made.

Homo sapiens have been around for 315,000 plus years.

Earth is over 4bn years old.

What did god do for 4bn years? Play marbles with dinosaurs and sea life?

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