Mai Krap Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 Why is it that you allow everyone and their brother to go off topic and bash the United States? Is this website about Thailand? Why let a handfull of people hijack and ruin the site for everybody that is not a disgruntled Anti-American expat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Padkapow Guy Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 I also get tired of the off topic America bashing. I don't think this is what Thaivisa is suppose to be about. No need to change for my sake I will get tired of it and stop posting and move on to another forum. I am sure these people could go to the bear pit and spew their puss, and leave the forum to Thai related info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stroll Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 I am posting in the bearpit, but I don't spew any puss. It is give and take, as far as I am concerned. But you are right, I am surprised it wasn't stopped earlier, referring to the original 'westernisation' thread. I suppose even talking about Thailand you cannot entirely ignore world politics. But maybe we can agree to stay clear of American/European/British slagging matches in future, I certainly would miss you, Padkapow Guy, and your photo contribution is excellent, by the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p1p Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 OK. Perhaps I can shed a little bit of light on the matter and, at the same time, lighten the subject a little: Only in America Only in America can a homeless combat veteran live in a cardboard box and a draft dodger live in the White House. Only in America...can a pizza get to your house faster than an ambulance... Only in America...are there handicap parking places in front of a skating rink... Only in America...do drugstores make the sick, walk all the way to the back of the store to get their prescriptions. Only in America...do people order double cheese burgers, a large fry, and a diet coke... Only in America...do banks leave both doors open and then chain the pens to the counters... Only in America...do we leave cars worth tens of thousands of dollars in the driveway and leave useless junk in the garage... Only in America...do we use answering machines to screen calls and then have call waiting so we won’t miss a call from someone we didn’t want to talk to in the first place... Only in America...do we buy hot dogs in packages of ten and buns in packages of eight... Only in America...do we use the word “politics” to describe the process so well: “Poli” in Latin meaning “many” and “tics” meaning “blood-sucking creatures”... Only in America do they have drive-up ATM machines with Braille lettering! However, on a more serious note: The following is taken from an open, unpublished letter sent to various US newspapers prior to the second invasion to Iraq. It was authored and signed by several US academics. Since 9/11, and particularly around the anniversary, we have all received many emails saying how proud our people are to be American. We have also heard and read many Americans asking, Why? Why us? Why do people hate us? What did we do wrong? Why are Americans so unpopular in places around the world? We feel that we can shed a bit of light on questions such those. It is not because we are free, nor because of our democracy, nor even particularly because we are rich. What people do not like is the sheer arrogance of the belief that nowhere else is of any importance unless it is rich in oil or other natural resource which we can make use of. The President hypocritically carries on about Freedom and Democracy and how people hate us because of it. This is not even remotely true. People around the world watched the farce of the presidential election where his brother Jeb, with the help of Katherine Harrison in Florida, was seen to fix it for him. Our Democracy is generally seen as simply the method for the richest, most powerful man to purchase power for himself. The truly popular candidate never even stands a chance to enter the race; too many vested interests will keep him out. With regard to our famous American freedom: If we are so free, why did Martin Luther King need to be politically active? What was the cause of the Los Angeles riots? Why did our National Guard shoot innocent students guilty only of voicing legitimate grievances? How free are we really and how has our freedom changed since 9/11? We see the number of people who fall through the holes in the US welfare program, who live on the streets or in sewers and eat at soup kitchens. The absolute conviction that we are so free, beautiful and great does not hold with these facts. The much-lauded Constitutional freedom to carry guns produces one of the most dangerous societies in the world. Murder rates in the three greatest American cities; Washington, Los Angeles and New York, are comparable with the most perilous places on Earth. Indeed, you probably know that the most dangerous city on earth is not in South America, Africa, Europe or even Afghanistan; it is Miami, Florida; governed by the aforementioned Jeb Bush. (This statistic ignores Iraq and other current war zones.) Our insularism is beyond belief. Ask the average citizen of the Mid-West: “Who is the current or previous President of South Africa, Russia or France?” They would have no idea. Ask them to point out Egypt, Ghana, Austria or Bangladesh on a map and you know what the result would be. Look at our television news, for most people the foreign news concerns the State next door, or Federal matters. Ask about anything outside the continental USA, and they are not only clueless but they could not care less. The whole world was dumbfounded by the President’s refusal to accept the evidence for global warming and the CO2 Greenhouse effect. Between us we have heard people discussing, with disgust, the US opting out of the Kyoto accords in 6 separate European countries plus India, Nepal, Pakistan, Japan, Thailand, Indonesia and Australia; not to mention the USA itself. The general consensus of opinion is that the USA is thumbing their noses at the rest of the world while the Bush family laugh all the way to the bank with their increasing oil riches. A lot of people feel upset by the constant referral to God; In God we trust etc. The secular segregation of Church and State is enshrined in US law, however our Pledge of Allegiance still makes reference to God and two of America’s three main anthems also mention God. On the subject of religion; The USA is the only country where Creationism is taught as fact in some schools, and the theory of Evolution dismissed as unlikely and anti-God. (On a personal note; one of our signatories was forced to resign as a city councilman because, being Buddhist, he could not refer to God in the Pledge of Allegiance. This was a clear violation of his rights under the US First Amendment, let alone his right to religious freedom but this did not occur to those forcing him out.) Bible study classes are held religiously, (forgive the pun) for children up to adults. This is regarded as natural and proper, indeed necessary to instill proper morals etc. However students who study Islam at Madrassars are labeled as Zealots or Fanatics. Is this correct or fair? People everywhere are asking why we are coming down so hard on Iraq because they did not follow UN resolutions. At the same time we support Israel in doing just that. Disregarding the feelings of Arabs, Palestinians and others, we have many Israeli and fellow American friends who firmly believe that September 11th would never have occurred and furthermore the whole Mid-East region would be living in peace if it were not for US interference and support for right wing politics in Israel. Many of us are heard to complain, “We are the only superpower and the world’s policeman. Why don't other countries like us?” We fail to understand that with great power comes great responsibility and we should be seen to act in an altruistic, rather than a self-centered manner, pandering to the interests of the USA alone, not the other countries concerned. As examples, where were we when the Rwandans were slaughtering each other? What happened when we encouraged the Kurds and the southern Marsh Arabs to rise up against Saddam Hussein at the end of the Gulf war? They were left to be slaughtered while waiting for promised American help to materialize. Look at the genocide that took place in Guatemala, Chile and elsewhere committed by our own CIA installed, puppet, right-wing governments. Consider how many despotic regimes are in power around the world only because of US support. Consider too the Second World War. We are so very fond of saying that we won the war, however we forget that Europe was screaming for assistance for an age while we sat on the wings and profited from the conflict. Only when Pearl Harbor was attacked did we deem to enter the war. Prior to that the free European forces and the British Commonwealth were the only countries standing up against the evils of Fascism. Furthermore, our claim to have "saved Europe and won the war" holds little water. The allies' victory stems far more from Hitler's bizarre decision to invade his ally Russia, thereby opening an eastern front he could not hope to overcome, than it does from any US involvement. Our citizens also love to complain about the vast amounts of aid we give to the rest of the world. We prefer to disregard the fact that, of the ten richest countries, we give by far the least, both per capita and in terms of % of GDP. If one also examines the percentage of truly altruistic aid, as opposed to aid tied to benefits to such companies as Monsanto, Boeing and Smith & Wesson, the comparison between the ten richest countries shows the US to be like a bicycle in an Indy 5000 race. Ask yourself why so many highly regarded NGOs around the world will have nothing to do with US Aid. Why should we demand: "We'll feed you as long as you ban abortions / grow our crops / become Christian / destroy your land with our chemicals / etc."? The new International Criminal Court is another example of our extreme arrogance. Why do we not accept the jurisdiction of a legitimate global body? It is there to protect us as much as anywhere else. None of the reasons given by the US hold water. It all boils down to “because we are Americans” which is simply not good enough. Lastly, let us look at September 11th itself. Why did those nineteen young men decide to end their own lives in such a manner? We have touched the tip of the iceberg of resentment above and can see genuine reasons for unhappiness, but why did they do what they did? What other recourse did they have? Complain to the UN Security Council? We all know who sits there and would veto anything. Desperate people do desperate things. Much like the wolf that chews off it's own leg in a trap, some people resort to terrorism. We see it everywhere around the world so why should America be any different? Examine the actual destruction and loss of life that day. Of course it was horrible, shocking, terrible and should never have been permitted to occur. We repeat our strongly felt condolences. However; let us put things in a bit of perspective. Less than 3500 people died. This is trivial in comparison to the ongoing deaths from starvation and disease throughout the world. Deaths that are preventable by the means and know-how we have today. Then why is so much significance placed on this, admittedly terrible terrorist act? The loss of some structures? Again, trivial, if compared to Hiroshima or Nagasaki. One is led to believe there could easily be some ulterior motive in the reactionary way our Government has and is responding to this act. Let us last consider the war against terrorism and proposed war against Iraq. We are afraid they are both deeply flawed ideas. As example regarding the war against terrorism: let us look at the Vietnam war: Who were the Viet Kong Guerrillas? The pretty girl on a bicycle? The schoolteacher with his books? The fruit vendor? The schoolgirl with her satchel? The bar owner or restaurateur with his GI clientele? The hotel concierge who supplied the officer with his most private desires? All of them had grenades, guns or explosives intended for US citizens. Terrorists today are the same types of people and equally impossible to identify with any certainty. No country has ever won a war against terrorism without, in some way, negotiating a settlement. We will discover this to our cost. What can the USA do to stop terrorism and avert the threat of weapons of mass destruction from Iraq or elsewhere? Live up to the constitution and the four freedoms espoused by FDR. Be philanthropic in our outlook and stop tying aid to any conditions. Help save the planet by embracing alternative energies and cutting back on CO2 and other emissions. Support indigenous peoples by encouraging sustainable use of rain forest and other localized or specialized ecologies, instead of pushing for the Monsanto or other large corporation sponsored deforestation. Stop sending our missionaries overseas to corrupt the cultures of native peoples. Instead, embrace and learn from the culture they have. Too many simple peoples are now dying out while waiting for “Jesus to save.” Become part of this great world’s cultural diversity and live and work with all without trying to change everybody else to fit our desires or perceived needs. Stop being greedy and try to arrange to share this planet's severely limited resources in a more equitable, sustainable manner. Embrace the United Nations and other global bodies but never try to dominate. Accept that others have legitimate rights, which may be contrary to our desires. If we can do this, there will be no need for any war against terrorism because terrorism will soon cease to exist. We regard ourselves as the leaders of the free world. Isn't it time we led? Finally, and again in a lighter tone, I heartily recommend a visit to http://www.pythonline.com/plugs/idle/FCCSong.mp3 where Mr Eric Idle, the first non-american contributor and one of the comic geniuses behind Monty Pithon says it all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 OK. Perhaps I can shed a little bit of light on the matter and, at the same time, lighten the subject a little:Only in America Only in America can a homeless combat veteran live in a cardboard box and a draft dodger live in the White House. Only in America...can a pizza get to your house faster than an ambulance... Only in America...are there handicap parking places in front of a skating rink... Only in America...do drugstores make the sick, walk all the way to the back of the store to get their prescriptions. Only in America...do people order double cheese burgers, a large fry, and a diet coke... Only in America...do banks leave both doors open and then chain the pens to the counters... Only in America...do we leave cars worth tens of thousands of dollars in the driveway and leave useless junk in the garage... Only in America...do we use answering machines to screen calls and then have call waiting so we won’t miss a call from someone we didn’t want to talk to in the first place... Only in America...do we buy hot dogs in packages of ten and buns in packages of eight... Only in America...do we use the word “politics” to describe the process so well: “Poli” in Latin meaning “many” and “tics” meaning “blood-sucking creatures”... Only in America do they have drive-up ATM machines with Braille lettering! However, on a more serious note: The following is taken from an open, unpublished letter sent to various US newspapers prior to the second invasion to Iraq. It was authored and signed by several US academics. Since 9/11, and particularly around the anniversary, we have all received many emails saying how proud our people are to be American. We have also heard and read many Americans asking, Why? Why us? Why do people hate us? What did we do wrong? Why are Americans so unpopular in places around the world? We feel that we can shed a bit of light on questions such those. It is not because we are free, nor because of our democracy, nor even particularly because we are rich. What people do not like is the sheer arrogance of the belief that nowhere else is of any importance unless it is rich in oil or other natural resource which we can make use of. The President hypocritically carries on about Freedom and Democracy and how people hate us because of it. This is not even remotely true. People around the world watched the farce of the presidential election where his brother Jeb, with the help of Katherine Harrison in Florida, was seen to fix it for him. Our Democracy is generally seen as simply the method for the richest, most powerful man to purchase power for himself. The truly popular candidate never even stands a chance to enter the race; too many vested interests will keep him out. With regard to our famous American freedom: If we are so free, why did Martin Luther King need to be politically active? What was the cause of the Los Angeles riots? Why did our National Guard shoot innocent students guilty only of voicing legitimate grievances? How free are we really and how has our freedom changed since 9/11? We see the number of people who fall through the holes in the US welfare program, who live on the streets or in sewers and eat at soup kitchens. The absolute conviction that we are so free, beautiful and great does not hold with these facts. The much-lauded Constitutional freedom to carry guns produces one of the most dangerous societies in the world. Murder rates in the three greatest American cities; Washington, Los Angeles and New York, are comparable with the most perilous places on Earth. Indeed, you probably know that the most dangerous city on earth is not in South America, Africa, Europe or even Afghanistan; it is Miami, Florida; governed by the aforementioned Jeb Bush. (This statistic ignores Iraq and other current war zones.) Our insularism is beyond belief. Ask the average citizen of the Mid-West: “Who is the current or previous President of South Africa, Russia or France?” They would have no idea. Ask them to point out Egypt, Ghana, Austria or Bangladesh on a map and you know what the result would be. Look at our television news, for most people the foreign news concerns the State next door, or Federal matters. Ask about anything outside the continental USA, and they are not only clueless but they could not care less. The whole world was dumbfounded by the President’s refusal to accept the evidence for global warming and the CO2 Greenhouse effect. Between us we have heard people discussing, with disgust, the US opting out of the Kyoto accords in 6 separate European countries plus India, Nepal, Pakistan, Japan, Thailand, Indonesia and Australia; not to mention the USA itself. The general consensus of opinion is that the USA is thumbing their noses at the rest of the world while the Bush family laugh all the way to the bank with their increasing oil riches. A lot of people feel upset by the constant referral to God; In God we trust etc. The secular segregation of Church and State is enshrined in US law, however our Pledge of Allegiance still makes reference to God and two of America’s three main anthems also mention God. On the subject of religion; The USA is the only country where Creationism is taught as fact in some schools, and the theory of Evolution dismissed as unlikely and anti-God. (On a personal note; one of our signatories was forced to resign as a city councilman because, being Buddhist, he could not refer to God in the Pledge of Allegiance. This was a clear violation of his rights under the US First Amendment, let alone his right to religious freedom but this did not occur to those forcing him out.) Bible study classes are held religiously, (forgive the pun) for children up to adults. This is regarded as natural and proper, indeed necessary to instill proper morals etc. However students who study Islam at Madrassars are labeled as Zealots or Fanatics. Is this correct or fair? People everywhere are asking why we are coming down so hard on Iraq because they did not follow UN resolutions. At the same time we support Israel in doing just that. Disregarding the feelings of Arabs, Palestinians and others, we have many Israeli and fellow American friends who firmly believe that September 11th would never have occurred and furthermore the whole Mid-East region would be living in peace if it were not for US interference and support for right wing politics in Israel. Many of us are heard to complain, “We are the only superpower and the world’s policeman. Why don't other countries like us?” We fail to understand that with great power comes great responsibility and we should be seen to act in an altruistic, rather than a self-centered manner, pandering to the interests of the USA alone, not the other countries concerned. As examples, where were we when the Rwandans were slaughtering each other? What happened when we encouraged the Kurds and the southern Marsh Arabs to rise up against Saddam Hussein at the end of the Gulf war? They were left to be slaughtered while waiting for promised American help to materialize. Look at the genocide that took place in Guatemala, Chile and elsewhere committed by our own CIA installed, puppet, right-wing governments. Consider how many despotic regimes are in power around the world only because of US support. Consider too the Second World War. We are so very fond of saying that we won the war, however we forget that Europe was screaming for assistance for an age while we sat on the wings and profited from the conflict. Only when Pearl Harbor was attacked did we deem to enter the war. Prior to that the free European forces and the British Commonwealth were the only countries standing up against the evils of Fascism. Furthermore, our claim to have "saved Europe and won the war" holds little water. The allies' victory stems far more from Hitler's bizarre decision to invade his ally Russia, thereby opening an eastern front he could not hope to overcome, than it does from any US involvement. Our citizens also love to complain about the vast amounts of aid we give to the rest of the world. We prefer to disregard the fact that, of the ten richest countries, we give by far the least, both per capita and in terms of % of GDP. If one also examines the percentage of truly altruistic aid, as opposed to aid tied to benefits to such companies as Monsanto, Boeing and Smith & Wesson, the comparison between the ten richest countries shows the US to be like a bicycle in an Indy 5000 race. Ask yourself why so many highly regarded NGOs around the world will have nothing to do with US Aid. Why should we demand: "We'll feed you as long as you ban abortions / grow our crops / become Christian / destroy your land with our chemicals / etc."? The new International Criminal Court is another example of our extreme arrogance. Why do we not accept the jurisdiction of a legitimate global body? It is there to protect us as much as anywhere else. None of the reasons given by the US hold water. It all boils down to “because we are Americans” which is simply not good enough. Lastly, let us look at September 11th itself. Why did those nineteen young men decide to end their own lives in such a manner? We have touched the tip of the iceberg of resentment above and can see genuine reasons for unhappiness, but why did they do what they did? What other recourse did they have? Complain to the UN Security Council? We all know who sits there and would veto anything. Desperate people do desperate things. Much like the wolf that chews off it's own leg in a trap, some people resort to terrorism. We see it everywhere around the world so why should America be any different? Examine the actual destruction and loss of life that day. Of course it was horrible, shocking, terrible and should never have been permitted to occur. We repeat our strongly felt condolences. However; let us put things in a bit of perspective. Less than 3500 people died. This is trivial in comparison to the ongoing deaths from starvation and disease throughout the world. Deaths that are preventable by the means and know-how we have today. Then why is so much significance placed on this, admittedly terrible terrorist act? The loss of some structures? Again, trivial, if compared to Hiroshima or Nagasaki. One is led to believe there could easily be some ulterior motive in the reactionary way our Government has and is responding to this act. Let us last consider the war against terrorism and proposed war against Iraq. We are afraid they are both deeply flawed ideas. As example regarding the war against terrorism: let us look at the Vietnam war: Who were the Viet Kong Guerrillas? The pretty girl on a bicycle? The schoolteacher with his books? The fruit vendor? The schoolgirl with her satchel? The bar owner or restaurateur with his GI clientele? The hotel concierge who supplied the officer with his most private desires? All of them had grenades, guns or explosives intended for US citizens. Terrorists today are the same types of people and equally impossible to identify with any certainty. No country has ever won a war against terrorism without, in some way, negotiating a settlement. We will discover this to our cost. What can the USA do to stop terrorism and avert the threat of weapons of mass destruction from Iraq or elsewhere? Live up to the constitution and the four freedoms espoused by FDR. Be philanthropic in our outlook and stop tying aid to any conditions. Help save the planet by embracing alternative energies and cutting back on CO2 and other emissions. Support indigenous peoples by encouraging sustainable use of rain forest and other localized or specialized ecologies, instead of pushing for the Monsanto or other large corporation sponsored deforestation. Stop sending our missionaries overseas to corrupt the cultures of native peoples. Instead, embrace and learn from the culture they have. Too many simple peoples are now dying out while waiting for “Jesus to save.” Become part of this great world’s cultural diversity and live and work with all without trying to change everybody else to fit our desires or perceived needs. Stop being greedy and try to arrange to share this planet's severely limited resources in a more equitable, sustainable manner. Embrace the United Nations and other global bodies but never try to dominate. Accept that others have legitimate rights, which may be contrary to our desires. If we can do this, there will be no need for any war against terrorism because terrorism will soon cease to exist. We regard ourselves as the leaders of the free world. Isn't it time we led? Finally, and again in a lighter tone, I heartily recommend a visit to http://www.pythonline.com/plugs/idle/FCCSong.mp3 where Mr Eric Idle, the first non-american contributor and one of the comic geniuses behind Monty Pithon says it all. looks like nobody is complaining about yohan's long posts anymore... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p1p Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 looks like nobody is complaining about yohan's long posts anymore... Amazing what a bit of cut and paste can do. (I resisted the strong desire to leave the bulk of the QUOTE unedited for this reply!) I am now bowing to pressure and reopening the thread and moving it to the General forum. Hope this is not a bad move. P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Georgie-Porgie Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 OK. Perhaps I can shed a little bit of light on the matter and, at the same time, lighten the subject a little:Only in America Only in America can a homeless combat veteran live in a cardboard box and a draft dodger live in the White House. Only in America...can a pizza get to your house faster than an ambulance... And on and on and on.... A "super-moderator" responds to a plea against America bashing with a whole bunch of America bashing, and then closes the thread. Kind of says it all, doesn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
splitlid Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 P1P you need to be bashed for that long posting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
george Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 Thread closed. Reason: Non-Thailand politics not allowed here Please continue in the Bear Pit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.png.3b3332cc2256ad0edbc2fe9404feeef0.png)
Recommended Posts