Cambodia: Is It A Good Alternative To Thailand?

[vermin on arrival]

JR,

Thanks for opening this thread, and keep the posts coming. It was very informative for the most part. From what I've heard from some friends of mine, and the information I've learned here, it makes me think I should give Cambodia another look.

The last time I was in PP was 10 years ago, and it's obvious that things have changed a great deal. Also, my trips to Poi Pet maybe 4 years ago made me feel that Cambo was a less than desirable locale in which to stay.

I must confess to some irritation with the "I love Thailand" cheerleaders who tend to denigrate other locations or the people who prefer to live in them. C'mon guys-different people have different priorities and preferences.

It doesn't surprise me when a Thai does this because just as Cambodians tend to hate Thais, the Thais look down on and exploit the Cambodians; so, it would make sense for a Thai to react the negatively to a farang who might prefer to be there.

[Ned]

I think it would be fair to say that most Thais don't think much of the farang tribe nowadays. Didn't used to be like that, at least in my experience. The novelty of having all these exotic foreigners around has well and truly worn off for them after the mass tourism of the last thirty years. Can you blame them? Maybe the Khmers at are that stage today in their relations with farang that the Thais were at thirty years ago......friendly, courteous and curious.

[tropo]

As for the pics you posted tropo . they're great, but possibly tinged with 'extreme bias'. Now show us the pics of the streets covering in trash 50 metres behind the riverfront , the hoardes of beggars just out of camera who stick their handless limbs out asking for a dollar while you're having breakfast, and the slums and $2 brothels just across out of view on the other side of the river.

Thanks Bendix, I was waiting for such a comment.

My photos are exhibiting bias towards areas where farangs would hang out. In most cities you can find bad areas.

Even in Pattaya with all its infrastructure, once you get off the main streets it's like going back 10 years, or like being transported to some poor provincial area.

The general impression I get when driving around on the main streets of PP is that the roads are quite good and they're clean...circa 2006. I can't comment on 'years ago' as I hadn't been there back in 'those' days.

[Naam]

People have enough trouble accurately predicting what will make themselves happy in the future. How is it that other people think they can do that for others? We do the best we can and see what happens. Many early retirees are plenty happy. You won't really know until you try it. End of sermon.

i retired 2 days before my 46th birthday. that was 17 years, 7 months and 7 days ago. what i very much regret is that i was too greedy amassing more money and did not retire when i was 40 (as were my plans when i was 25).

[meemiathai]

People have enough trouble accurately predicting what will make themselves happy in the future. How is it that other people think they can do that for others? We do the best we can and see what happens. Many early retirees are plenty happy. You won't really know until you try it. End of sermon.

i retired 2 days before my 46th birthday. that was 17 years, 7 months and 7 days ago. what i very much regret is that i was too greedy amassing more money and did not retire when i was 40 (as were my plans when i was 25).

Does that mean the problem now is you have too much money? I can help.

[qualtrough]

Imagine getting in on the ground floor of the next Pattaya.

The ground floor is certainly where you would want to be in Pattaya...

[bendix]

Thanks Bendix, I was waiting for such a comment.

My photos are exhibiting bias towards areas where farangs would hang out. In most cities you can find bad areas.

Even in Pattaya with all its infrastructure, once you get off the main streets it's like going back 10 years, or like being transported to some poor provincial area.

The general impression I get when driving around on the main streets of PP is that the roads are quite good and they're clean...circa 2006. I can't comment on 'years ago' as I hadn't been there back in 'those' days.

With respect tropo, that's a rather assinine point. Yes, the river is where people hang out but my point is that the slum conditions, unpaved roads loaded with trash, limbless beggars are not in a far distant part of PP. They are to the side of your pictures, behind the nice cafes etc etc.

Anyway, I think this debate has lost it's edge and I have little appetite for it now, cos - frankly - I like PP for its extremes and its wild west frontier feel. I just wouldn't want to live there or do business there.

But, then, I'm deliriously happy here in Thailand, so why would I?

[terry57]

Thanks Bendix, I was waiting for such a comment.

My photos are exhibiting bias towards areas where farangs would hang out. In most cities you can find bad areas.

Even in Pattaya with all its infrastructure, once you get off the main streets it's like going back 10 years, or like being transported to some poor provincial area.

The general impression I get when driving around on the main streets of PP is that the roads are quite good and they're clean...circa 2006. I can't comment on 'years ago' as I hadn't been there back in 'those' days.

With respect tropo, that's a rather assinine point. Yes, the river is where people hang out but my point is that the slum conditions, unpaved roads loaded with trash, limbless beggars are not in a far distant part of PP. They are to the side of your pictures, behind the nice cafes etc etc.

Anyway, I think this debate has lost it's edge and I have little appetite for it now, cos - frankly - I like PP for its extremes and its wild west frontier feel. I just wouldn't want to live there or do business there.

But, then, I'm deliriously happy here in Thailand, so why would I?

jessuss bendix,

you really are going to send some of these punters into orbit by saying you are deliriously happy here in los, as they hate to hear that.

and just to keep on topic, ive been althrough cambodia and how anybody could say they prefer to live there over los is beyond me, as its a throw back to the stone age. if it was'nt for anchor wat it would be a pissy little back water with an minute amount of visitors and one cant dispute that.

thank you very much.

[A_Traveller]

as its a throw back to the stone age

There are some there who take the view, that their neighbours enthusiasm for assisting in bombing them 'back to the stone age' is not easily forgotten.

Regards

[qwertz]

I still haven't grasped the relevance of this thread.

Cambo's there if anyone wants to see it; no need to ask for comparisons with LOS.

After my one and only visit there some years ago it's still on my never again list.

[JimsKnight]

I visited Cambodia just the once as a tester for future relocation. Went to Ankor Wat, was not impressed, full of urchins trying to get you to buy cheap junk. Once your inside it and seen it its like ok wheres the next one? There isn't! Its the only one! So tick the box and jump on the boat to PP! Quiant chocolate / mud river south and its on to the capital.

As of 2001 only about one proper road (Euro / Thai standard) existed. The rest are the mud/clay red commonly seen in Africa.

Overhyped is the key word about Cambo. In PP the nightlife is like its trying to be Pattaya and Bangkok but not quite making the grade.

The expats there seem to be inexplicably stand-offish / aloof and clicky, like they've got to try and prove something to the Thai Expats who visit there.

The kiddy paedo types and the touts that hassle you when you're going about your business in PP don't do the place any favours either. It still has this whole kiddy-fiddling stigma to it that it needs to get rid of.

Getting a decent apartment in PP that has the creature comforts of Thailand is unlikely for the same price.

Finally cambodian women are overall not what I would consider attractive. For some reason they seem to come across as the ugly sister of Thailand, for all that though they are slightly meeker and olde-worlde that LOS though.

Finished the trip by jumping on a banana / torpedo boat all the way along the southern coast line towards thailand.

Felt like I'd arrived back in utopia once I'd stepped back on terra firma!

So visit the place? Sure. Pass on through? Maybe, but actually retire there? No way hose'.

[steveromagnino]

if it was'nt for anchor wat it would be a pissy little back water with an minute amount of visitors and one cant dispute that.

I think a flotilla of men interested in having sexual relationships with cheap prostitutes would beg to differ with you.

[JR Texas]

if it was'nt for anchor wat it would be a pissy little back water with an minute amount of visitors and one cant dispute that.

I think a flotilla of men interested in having sexual relationships with cheap prostitutes would beg to differ with you.

JR Texas: Cambodia is an alternative I think......mainly because of the positive visa/business rules and the hospitality of the people. We all have different experiences.........I came away from Cambodia thinking that the people were kind (but too poor). The young people I met seemed ready for positive change.......eager to learn things. The older people wanted to forget the past and move forward. Siem Riep seemed on the rise........the riverfront in PP seemed nice.......and Sihanoukville seemed like a place with great potential (now.......seems too quiet and underdeveloped).

Bendix noted (and I did too) that there are lots of beggars in Cambodia. That is a fact and it is a disturbing one. But, just yesterday, I was in Khon Kaen at the bus station. I had to cross the street and up in the overpass were lots of beggars.......they looked just like the beggars in Cambodia.....same hopelessness and desperation.

Lets not forget that Thailand has many economic problems, and those problems are increasing due to the current madness. I have seen many negative changes take place in Thailand over the past 20 years (e.g., crime, xenophobia, pollution).

One major change is that almost everywhere you go now it is overcrowded with people, people, people........that was not the case in the past. And pollution of all sorts has increased......the air is now very unhealthy in places like Bangkok, Chiang Mai and even Pattaya on certain days (when the wind is not blowing it away).

Global warming will make this worse.......it is already hotter than hel_l in most of Thailand.....very uncomfortable for most people, especially Westerners.

JETRO just published something on monthly wages in Asia.......the only country that has seen a decline over the past few years is Thailand (major decline). Wages are going down in real terms and prices are increasing.......investment in the country is declining.......real estate market is way overextended (crrrrrrrrrrrrrrraaaaaaaaaasssssssssssshhhhhhh). 1% of the population owns/controls over 90% of all the disposable wealth in the nation.

The govt. is a military dictatorship. There is no freedom of speech and freedom of assembly is on shaky ground. Censorship of what we read, hear, see.......now they are prioritizing the skirts and blouses worn by female college students (total madness). And, of course, the xenophobia in the country is being stirred up and is reflected in the crazy visa/business rules.

Yes, Cambodia has its faults........but so does Thailand. In ten years, if Thailand continues down its current xenophobic path, Cambodia, Vietnam and the Philippines will be widely accepted as attractive alternatives to LOS.

GOOD LUCK!

[craigcp]

hello im after markets that sell shoes/sneakers/trainers i collect old adidas nike puma converse shoes/trainers/sneakers so any help would be great, im in bangkok now ive been jj market so dont need that one. Im thinking of going cambodia soon could any one tell me of any clothing places or shoe markets, someone told me that places like USA AND AMERICA give cambodia and thailand trainers and clothing, but they get bought and sold around the countrys can any one help me thanks.

If anyone know of any markets in thailand or cambodia or even vietnam could you please let me know on

[email protected] thats my msn messenger address too.

thanks

[Pattayatony]

hello im after markets that sell shoes/sneakers/trainers i collect old adidas nike puma converse shoes/trainers/sneakers so any help would be great, im in bangkok now ive been jj market so dont need that one. Im thinking of going cambodia soon could any one tell me of any clothing places or shoe markets, someone told me that places like USA AND AMERICA give cambodia and thailand trainers and clothing, but they get bought and sold around the countrys can any one help me thanks.

If anyone know of any markets in thailand or cambodia or even vietnam could you please let me know on

[email protected] thats my msn messenger address too.

thanks

Take a trip to Poi Pet The Thais buy all 2nd hand cloths there from the Khmers.

"Watch out for pick pockets"

[rychrde]

hello im after markets that sell shoes/sneakers/trainers i collect old adidas nike puma converse shoes/trainers/sneakers so any help would be great, im in bangkok now ive been jj market so dont need that one. Im thinking of going cambodia soon could any one tell me of any clothing places or shoe markets, someone told me that places like USA AND AMERICA give cambodia and thailand trainers and clothing, but they get bought and sold around the countrys can any one help me thanks.

If anyone know of any markets in thailand or cambodia or even vietnam could you please let me know on

[email protected] thats my msn messenger address too.

thanks

Take a trip to Poi Pet The Thais buy all 2nd hand cloths there from the Khmers.

"Watch out for pick pockets"

correct on both counts

[rychrde]

Far from it tropo. I like Cambodia. To visit.

I just can't believe anyone seriously thinks it's a better place to live than Thailand.

Anyway, what's wrong with extreme bias? It keeps the thread alive ;-)

JR Texas to Bendix: OK, sorry Bendix.......you knew who my post was directed at. I thought you were a 40 something, suit and tie, right wing conservative working for an MNC in Bangkok (making big money....that is good), but still, working and having to kiss.....well, you know.

I am all the above, except the bits about suit and tie and having to kiss. . . . . well, you know.

I also "retired" as a forty something in Thailand some years ago, not after an MNC life, but after an entrepreneur career owning & operating businesses. Regardless, it sucks to retire early. I hung around reading on the beach, rode my motorcycle, played golf and generally went nuts. I was back in the business world a year later. Now, I never want to fully retire. Call me an A type, I guess. I look at guys like , Bill Gates, Larry Ellison, Steve Jobs, still running empires in their fifties, and much older dudes like Li Ka-shing, Rupert Murdoch, etc..as examples of enjoying life but still working and being productive till you can't move. Keeps you engaged and young.

I would be very open to running to Cambo to start a business if it got hot, but I wouldn't want to live there.

Bendix, don't fully retire in your 40s or you'll be climbing the walls if you have the enthusiam for your profession that you exhibit in this forum. JR, good luck on finding a new opportunity, even later in life. Academia can be a cruel background for entrepreneurial endeavours, but good luck.

Everyone else, don't think early retirement is all it's cracked up to be. I can understand it for those who have worked hard in a non-fulfilling job their whole life, but for those of you who have created things don't do it.

thanks chinthee! just read it when I needed to :-)

[Sheryl]

And i think that sums it up, Fred. Cambo is a great place for the type of people who think shopping malls are overpriced luxuries, who prefer to watch dvds because there are no cinemas and who can live off sandwiches made on the street.

If that's your thing, good luck to you.

Me? I prefer choice.

Another poster (JR Texas himself, I think) talked about the airconditioned shopping mall with farang food. The fact that one needs to point out there is ONE shopping mall as if it is a highlight says it all. In Thailand there are numerous supermarkets selling foreign food, particularly in Bkk, Pattaya, CM and Hua Hin. In PP there is a supermarket the size of a large 7/11 and its vastly overpriced.

No choice. No luxury. No laws. But plenty of Thailand's rejected farang.

Good luck

I've disregarded the multiple inaccuarte posts till now but....

As one who divides her time between both Thailand and Cambodia, and who lived full time in PP for several years...this is nonsense. There are many supermarkets in Cambodia. Granted not as large as say Lotus but very much larger than a 7/11. All of them have better range of Western food than you find in most Thai supermarkets and athere are also a number of specialty shops with excellent range of western delicacies. In fact, due to the ease of zipping around town, I prefer to buy my Western foods, cheeses etc in Phnom Penh to bring back to Thailand over trying to get them in Bangkok.

Contrary to what a number of posters said, in PP, Siem Reap and SHV, restaurants situation very good in terms of range of choice, quality of food and price. In fact I think PP has probably the best range of cuisine at affordable price that I have ever seen. One reason being that the customers are mostly foreign (and the owners as well) so the cuisine doesn't get dumbed down.

I will grant you tho a dismal situation in the countryside unless you happen to like Khmer food.

Cooking at home though, little problem, good ran ge of fresh ingrediants in the markets. If living upcountry, you would need to bring any specialized western ingrediants from PP but then, equivalent is true in Thailand.

Food aside, quality of life is a great deal better than most of these posts suggest, but they are right re investment/business situation. Only advisable if you can afford to walk away from whatever capital you put in. Applies equally to residential property. Which is why, despite loving Cambodia and its people, and speaking the language far better than I speak Thai, I built my retirement hom e in Thailand.

Visa situation couldn't be easier. Cable TV much cheaper and wider range than in Thailand, internet access more expensive but readily available unless you are really out in the sticks.

I would have to say, better attitude towards foreigners by a long shot...so those of you with bad attitudes please continue to stay out so it stays that way!

Other than investment rtisks, I would say the biggest downside is crime. It is definitely much less safe a place than Thailand (although the post abolut land mines was wrong...remains a problem only in a few very remote isolated forested areas where you'd be very unlikely to ever go.).

[simon43]

JimsKnight said:

Went to Ankor Wat, was not impressed...... Once your inside it and seen it its like ok wheres the next one? There isn't! Its the only one!

[\quote]

Thank-you very much for dismissing one of the greatest architectural and cultural/historic wonders of the world in a single sentence. How much bigger would you like it to be?

Simon

[JimsKnight]

A lot bigger little simon, it's a decent structure, but the way everyone yahoo's and celebrates the place it's like the elixir of life comes from it.

It may cover a fair amount of land, but the structure is waaaay to low down and squat to overly impress.

Theres many a greater place than Ankor Wat. Several Cathedrals in Europe are a lot older and more impressive than the pinnapple palace at Siam Reap. Canterbury Cathedral being one, I'm not being dismissive but theres many older, bigger and better ancient sites in the world than Ankor Wat. Somehow everyone gets hype-hype-hype about the place.

I've been there and you pay the money for visiting, ok fair enough, keep the place going for visiting folk. But then you've got a hoard of limpet-like urchin boys and girls trying to hassle you for cash. Do you get that in LOS? Not by half as much!

Ankor Wat. Not a brilliant place. Good to visit the once, but thats about it.

[canuckamuck]

Just came back from 5 days in PP, I found Cambodia to be a mixed bag of blessings and woes. This wasn’t my first trip, but it was the first time I looked at it as a possible place to live.

My impression of the Khmer people is that they generally helpful, quick to smile, and I enjoy being around them. We found excellent food all the time, half the time we ate at vendors the other half we tried out different restaurants. It was very easy to communicate in English and sometimes Thai worked better. I am told the language is easier to learn than Thai is.

The downside was, the infrastructure is not far advanced from a refugee camp, the beggars are numerous, and the city feels dirty and rundown. My wife got her wallet lifted as well, so that is a sign the petty crime rate is likely high. The numerous Hummers, Lexus’s, and even a Cadillac Escalade, was a sure sign of the corrupt officials taking their share. Business there must be frustrating.

As far as living in the country is concerned, there are some stunningly beautiful places. But I have no idea of the cost of de-mining. I have been told there is an estimated 13 million mines remaining to be discovered in Cambodia. My friend works in Poi Pet and he says the hospital still gets about 1 victim a day. Many of the victims are those who are removing the mines. He has watched the de-mining and knows people who do the work.

However, my wife and I agreed we could live there and enjoy it. Cambodia is on our list of potential homes if weever have to leave Thailand behind. For now, Thailand is still the best.

[KaronSteve]

And i think that sums it up, Fred. Cambo is a great place for the type of people who think shopping malls are overpriced luxuries, who prefer to watch dvds because there are no cinemas and who can live off sandwiches made on the street.

If that's your thing, good luck to you.

Me? I prefer choice.

Another poster (JR Texas himself, I think) talked about the airconditioned shopping mall with farang food. The fact that one needs to point out there is ONE shopping mall as if it is a highlight says it all. In Thailand there are numerous supermarkets selling foreign food, particularly in Bkk, Pattaya, CM and Hua Hin. In PP there is a supermarket the size of a large 7/11 and its vastly overpriced.

No choice. No luxury. No laws. But plenty of Thailand's rejected farang.

Good luck

I've disregarded the multiple inaccuarte posts till now but....

As one who divides her time between both Thailand and Cambodia, and who lived full time in PP for several years...this is nonsense. There are many supermarkets in Cambodia. Granted not as large as say Lotus but very much larger than a 7/11. All of them have better range of Western food than you find in most Thai supermarkets and athere are also a number of specialty shops with excellent range of western delicacies. In fact, due to the ease of zipping around town, I prefer to buy my Western foods, cheeses etc in Phnom Penh to bring back to Thailand over trying to get them in Bangkok.

Contrary to what a number of posters said, in PP, Siem Reap and SHV, restaurants situation very good in terms of range of choice, quality of food and price. In fact I think PP has probably the best range of cuisine at affordable price that I have ever seen. One reason being that the customers are mostly foreign (and the owners as well) so the cuisine doesn't get dumbed down.

I will grant you tho a dismal situation in the countryside unless you happen to like Khmer food.

Cooking at home though, little problem, good ran ge of fresh ingrediants in the markets. If living upcountry, you would need to bring any specialized western ingrediants from PP but then, equivalent is true in Thailand.

Food aside, quality of life is a great deal better than most of these posts suggest, but they are right re investment/business situation. Only advisable if you can afford to walk away from whatever capital you put in. Applies equally to residential property. Which is why, despite loving Cambodia and its people, and speaking the language far better than I speak Thai, I built my retirement hom e in Thailand.

Visa situation couldn't be easier. Cable TV much cheaper and wider range than in Thailand, internet access more expensive but readily available unless you are really out in the sticks.

I would have to say, better attitude towards foreigners by a long shot...so those of you with bad attitudes please continue to stay out so it stays that way!

Other than investment rtisks, I would say the biggest downside is crime. It is definitely much less safe a place than Thailand (although the post abolut land mines was wrong...remains a problem only in a few very remote isolated forested areas where you'd be very unlikely to ever go.).

Bendix....When has Thailand ever rejected a farang who didn't break the law? You spend you stay.

Sherryl thanks for the post.

I thought I was the only one who thought as you do but as I have only been to Cambodia three times I didn't feel qualified to comment.

Didn't the original poster ask about investment opportunities in Cambodia? So where do the french bread and other life style posts become relevant?

Observations from my limited travels in Cambodia.

Outside the big 3..

Where do they get power from?

No poles and wires as here. A generator and a TV are literally a business opportunity.

Ditto water.

Can you produce and market a really cheap, naturally driven but effective pump? Because all I saw was the gutter, muslin filters and big pot system used up country in Thailand for drinking water no mechanical pumps that I saw. Not to sell them directly to the Khmer but to the NGO's so they can justify the Landcruisers.

Why do you not see crops growing as you do in Thailand?

From PP to Sihanoukville or PP to Siam Reap the only agriculture I saw was an enormous palm oil farm. No rice, no mangosteen to export to OZ and nothing grown around the houses as in Thailand. I made the incorrect assumption, shot down by Sherryl, that it was because of landmines.

I can really believe an earlier poster that you can make money from efficient agriculture in Cambodia.

Business opportunity wasted....mad cow disease...ship the cows to Cambodia and drive them across the mine fields and sell whatever is left in the local market. Lots cheaper than using people and machines.

Inside the big 3..

Bar or

Restaurant or

Bar or

Restaurant or

TEFL or

Consultant

Any different from Thailand? Keep under the radar or get "bought out".

Only invest "what you can afford to loose". Any different to anywhere else in the world??

Apologies......half pished and feeling very, very cynical

[Sheryl]

The agriculture is limited by lack of irrigation. Of course, Cambodia is a rice-growing (and exporting) country but unlike Thailand only one crop a year due to water. Limitation on irrigation, aside from c apital inputs, is lack of electrification in rural areas plus the country has the world's highest electricity costs in areas which are electrified (which in turn makes all types of production expensive). However this is all likely to change in the next few years.

I think Cambodia is one of those places that is much nicer to live in than be a tourist in. Expat life style can be wquite nuce and there are certainly a number of intelligent foreigners who have chosen to live here for extended periods (I'm talking about successful folk who could live where they want, not rejects and dopers...altho of course those are also to be found).

But I must re-iterate the warnings about investment of any type, be it residential real estate or a business. Risks here ARE higher than elsewhere and legal recourse is nil.

[arizonadave]

A friend talked me into tagging along with him to PP and Sihanookville last month. We were only there for a week so not much time to form an opinion but here goes anyway. Different pluses and minuses with each country. More trash, a lot more, generally less convenient, fewer creature comforts, corruption more in the open, less natural beauty, more poverty, less interesting but less baffling, culturally closer to western mindset, didn't find myself almost constantly trying to understand what makes the locals tick and how they think and what's really going on, they seemed more sincere, easier to understand, relate to and conduct business with, Sville has beautiful beaches/ocean/islands/green hills and mountains behind, wide roads, lots of space between streets and buildings, lots of space in general, lots of room for growth, hotel and beer about half the price of Tland, the girls in the bars were nicelooking, well spoken, fun and just plain pleasant to be in the company of, as opposed to here nowadays, all just my opinion of course, and you know what they say about opinions...

[ozzydom]

Cambodia,UGH,dont go, the women are pig-dog ugly,the beer is dish washing water, the food is left overs from thai street stalls, the gunja is 50% dried tea leaf, you definately wouldnt like the place.

But if you are really cant be talked out of it ,I,ll see you in Snookyville.

Cheers

Ozzy