Spin Off From "story Of My Thai Citizenship Application" Thread

[samran]

BAF, just a side note, have a look at how your people treat Asians and blacks. You might have laws in Italy trying to make things look fair. But probably in reality people in your country suffer from racism more than farangs in thailand?

I have been to Italy twice and both times had very bad experiences. Both times I went with Asians.

Not at all saying all Italians are like that.

Yes I had a terrible time there as well. A girl I used to see broke my heart there. And the last time I was there driving, I got lost cause the roads were terrible and the signs were all in Italian. A Venetian gondalier wanted to charge me $200 for a 30 minute ride around the block (more than 2 times my hourly charge out rate...how dare he...) and I'm sure the Uffizi galary has dual pricing, one for EU'ers and another for foriegners.

Xenaphobic, and I'm sure it has something to do with the immigration rules.

Don't get me started on telling the rip offs they had on me in Turin!

And services was a bloody joke!

And you know what? They had double pricing there!!!!!! Can you believe it? Locals were charged less! And they complain when they are in thailand!

Well BAF likes to argue for recipprocal rights. I guess he can't complain then when he comes here.

[samran]

BAF, just a side note, have a look at how your people treat Asians and blacks. You might have laws in Italy trying to make things look fair. But probably in reality people in your country suffer from racism more than farangs in thailand?

I have been to Italy twice and both times had very bad experiences. Both times I went with Asians.

Not at all saying all Italians are like that.

Yes I had a terrible time there as well. A girl I used to see broke my heart there. And the last time I was there driving, I got lost cause the roads were terrible and the signs were all in Italian. A Venetian gondalier wanted to charge me $200 for a 30 minute ride around the block (more than 2 times my hourly charge out rate...how dare he...) and I'm sure the Uffizi galary has dual pricing, one for EU'ers and another for foriegners.

Xenaphobic, and I'm sure it has something to do with the immigration rules.

Don't get me started on telling the rip offs they had on me in Turin!

And services was a bloody joke!

And you know what? They had double pricing there!!!!!! Can you believe it? Locals were charged less! And they complain when they are in thailand!

Crappy overpriced service in Italy? I'd never....

Terrible expensive food in tourist areas? Fake watches, pickpockets and outright bag theifs at the train stations....don't tell me it is so.....

Well BAF likes to argue for recipprocal rights. I guess he can't complain then when he comes here.

[BAF]

I'd feel crap of course.

But, thats not the real question is it?

Since when has Thailand stopped families from staying together? Non-O visas are available to all members of the family. They just aren't extendable unless you and our partner earn a combined income of over 40K per month. How do you prove 40K, you pay tax on it of course... If you don't have 40K, you do what some do...a visa run and get another non O in Penang or Vientienne. Not ideal, but it is hardly the stuff of tearing apart families.

Having to disrupt your life and leave your spouse and children every 90 days on a visa run outside of your wife's and children's homecountry isn't a big deal?!?

I guess nothing would teach you better than real life experiences but, alas, that's not to come...

IMHO I think the 40K rule is a great one in the sense as it sets a ar for people to think about...and makes them ask the question "can I survive in Thailand".

"SURVIVE"?!? IIRC the US sets the minimum required income to 105% of the poverty line, that's what I would call "surviving"!

Thailand requires more than five times the average Thai wage. I guess you are saying that the average Thai is starving to death...

For the record, Italy and many other countries set no minimum. In the rest of the cases, they set truly realistic minimums.

I don't buy the line that "I'm not allowed to work here cause the rules don't allow me". That is absloute rubbish.

I have already said that I am not interested in (besides the fact that I don't need to) slaving in a 3rd world working environment in one of the few unrestricted jobs foreigners are allowed to do...

[lannarebirth]

I think the idea of reciprocal fees is a very Italian idea. I remember many years ago whe I toured the Colosseum they had a board up showing about 28 differnt entrance fees. People who wanted to enter had to pay a ticket price commensurate with what Italians had to pay to see major attractions in their country of origin. This was way before the EU, so it's probably changed now.

[samran]

I have already said that I am not interested in (besides the fact that I don't need to) slaving in a 3rd world working environment in one of the few unrestricted jobs foreigners are allowed to do...

Interesting line.

I and many others here, are hardly slaving.

But you are the expert...who doesn't live here.

[asiaworld]

hey it ain't that bad surely he can't sleep @ nights dreaming he can live here, otherwise this thread would never started . it still does nothing for families, and anyway even PR holder aren't allowed 'to slave' here now thats pure discrimination !!

On a serious note, i do think that thai luk kreung children SHOULD organise some movement to attract attention to plights of their fathers , sure samran , u're not a 'barboy' , u can arrange visa for your(also assume foreign) wife, she may have fast track citizenship as well, still doesn't change the fact that united action can bring some progress..

Now i'm not married with thai ( God forbid! but who can pedict the future) but i still feel for all those poor sods with thai families

Edited August 7, 2007 by asiaworld

[BAF]

So BAF, you're in Italy, adjacent to Switzerland. Switzerland even has an Italian speaking canton. How easy is it to emigrate there?

To complete the geography lesson, Italy contains two countries, San Marino and the Vatican, and borders with 3 other countries apart form Switzerland: France, Austria and Slovenia.

I don't know why you are picking up Switzerland and you aren't asking for the immi laws of any one of those others, I guess you are trying to pick up the toughest one.

So, here we go: if you (note for the FTAs' scholars and immi-laws ignorants: as a non-EU citizen) have married a Swiss, you are entitled to an authorization for residence (B permit) . You may also engage in profit-earning activity with authorization from the Aliens Police. Maximum limits on foreign workers admitted every year do not affect your case. You are assimilated into the native workforce.

Following an uninterrupted stay of five years in Switzerland, you are entitled to a permanent establishment permit (C permit).

Permit B = annual residence.

A one-year residence permit for gainful employment, with minor restrictions. As a rule, residence permits for family members are possible. Annual renewal is a simple formality.

Permit C = settlement.

A permanent residence permit, granted after 5 years continuous residence in Switzerland. It has almost no restrictions and allows you to buy real estate, moving from one canton to another, become self-mployed, etc.

For the immigrant workers (non EU citizens): If an employer wants to hire you, he must send you an official offer of employment. If you accept the offer, your employer then applies for a residence permit in the local canton’s police section for foreigners. If a residence permit is approved, your employer sends you a ‘pre-authorisation for a residency permit’ (Zusicherung der Aufenthaltsbewilligung - Autorisation de Séjour - Autorizzazione al Soggiorno) in addition to your employment contract. On arrival in Switzerland, you present this document in the formal application for the actual residency permit.

The validity of the permit depends on the duration of the employment contract:

 

L permit (temporary residence permit)

Employment contract of less than one year's duration. The validity six months for trainees, or 18 months for key positions (founding / setting up a company, training of new personnel).

 

B permit (annual residence permit)

Employment contract of one or more years' duration or of unlimited duration. Legal domicile in Switzerland. Residence permits for family members possible. Annual renewal is a simple formality.

 

C permit (permanent residence permit)

Available after 5 years continuous residence in Switzerland. Except for the right to vote, to be elected to a public office, and compulsory military service, these permit holders are equal to Swiss nationals.

Nice try... NOT.

[BAF]

But you are the expert...who doesn't live here.

No I am the expert... who doesn't need to work to make a living.

Besides, I have lived for years in Thailand, am married to a Thai, speak its main language, understand its main dialect and know all too well Thailand's typical working environment and the laws (and their enforcement) regulating it.

You don't have to directly experience a kick in the nuts, it suffices to see others getting kicked and what happens next to know it hurts... or do you?

[BAF]

In a moment of insanity, wifey and I looked at buying a place in Zermatt. But....dah dum...we couldn't.

True, the so-called Lex Friedrich forbids foreigners without permits (tourists, in other words) to buy any real estate in Switzerland. However, it allows cantons to give limited buying authorization in selected areas, if the buyer fulfils certain conditions.

You had to be resident there, and that pretty much meant being Swiss.

BS, a temporary permit (which corresponds roughly to a Thai non-IMM permit) is sufficent. You DO NOT have to be Swiss nor you need to hold permanent residency.

[BAF]

And the last time I was there driving, I got lost cause the roads were terrible and the signs were all in Italian.

?

They are written in the Roman alphabet, like English.

True, they don't read "Venice", "Rome" or "Milan" they read "Venezia", "Roma" and "Milano"...

Guess it was too hard for you to make them out...

A Venetian gondalier wanted to charge me $200 for a 30 minute ride around the block (more than 2 times my hourly charge out rate...how dare he...)

Do you think they didn't like you? They would charge (or try to charge) me the same, where is the xenophobia?

and I'm sure the Uffizi galary has dual pricing, one for EU'ers and another for foriegners.

Like in most of the cases where you "are sure", you are wrong: the ticket for the Galleria degli Uffizi is € 10 for all.

[BAF]

And you know what? They had double pricing there!!!!!! Can you believe it? Locals were charged less!

Interesting, can you detail?

[BAF]

Well BAF likes to argue for recipprocal rights. I guess he can't complain then when he comes here.

In case you didn't notice, this thread isn't about foreigners having to pay 10 (TEN) TIMES what the Thais pay to enter national parks or other govt and non-govt places/attractions...

[BAF]

Terrible expensive food in tourist areas? Fake watches, pickpockets and outright bag theifs at the train stations....don't tell me it is so.....

Yes, only in Thailand and in Italy...

...if all you have ever visited are Thailand and Italy.

[asiaworld]

This could be really useful thread,but it just turns into bickering & name calling. BAF & samran start talking nicely & see what u guys have in common No country is perfect IT or TH ,, if samran wouldn't have thai ppt you'd sing different songs.. Same with BAF . i can live anywhere in EU , without a hint of discrimination, but i don't (visit frequently thou) & in my books it is as third world as it gets. But this is TV, so all the luk kreungs who read this !! You are THAIS right happy .

Now all thais seem to have in their culture to take care of their parents , yeah families are weak here, but still if parents do stay together that INCLUDES FATHERS ! Now imagine a scenario, if u have a decent chap some european,or north american "refugee" who got married here, lived here, made children, they grow up to the age of samran & heng (sorry shouldn't be name calling ) . Now even if father is above 60 y.o. , but OH HORROR , he couldn't save 800,000 !!! well coz , he can't really 'slave' here ,, had to buy houe in his wife's name bring uo his children ..

WHAT do you proud thai citizens see yourself doing, taking care of your father ?!?>> wheeling him monthly on his visa runs to Poipet border, occasionally leaving him in casino every 3 months, because well, he can't be tourist here for too long , can he

[BAF]

I think the idea of reciprocal fees is a very Italian idea. I remember many years ago whe I toured the Colosseum they had a board up showing about 28 differnt entrance fees. People who wanted to enter had to pay a ticket price commensurate with what Italians had to pay to see major attractions in their country of origin. This was way before the EU, so it's probably changed now.

A great idea although I doubt it's true. Any online reference (tried and haven't found any)?

Anyway, last time I was there to show it to my wife it was € 9 for all and free entry for the under 18 and over 65...

P.S. So, were the Thais paying 10 TIMES what the Italians were?

[lannarebirth]

I think the idea of reciprocal fees is a very Italian idea. I remember many years ago whe I toured the Colosseum they had a board up showing about 28 differnt entrance fees. People who wanted to enter had to pay a ticket price commensurate with what Italians had to pay to see major attractions in their country of origin. This was way before the EU, so it's probably changed now.

A great idea although I doubt it's true. Any online reference (tried and haven't found any)?

Anyway, last time I was there to show it to my wife it was € 9 for all and free entry for the under 18 and over 65...

P.S. So, were the Thais paying 10 TIMES what the Italians were?

What do you mean You "doubt it's true"? You think I made it up?

I have no idea what the fees ar know. This was 15-20 years ago.

[BAF]

What do you mean You "doubt it's true"? You think I made it up?

I have no idea what the fees ar know. This was 15-20 years ago.

You may not recall it correctly or you may have misunderstood different translations of the price structure for different prices or... you may be right.

So, do you have any reference? A website, a scan of a flyer, whatever? I have tried an online search in both English and Italian using the keyword "lire" instead of "euro" to be sure to get old prices but all the prices mentioned were the same for all.

P.S. And you still haven't told me how much were the Thais paying nor have I seen an akwnoledgement for the crap shot you took with Switzerland...

[lannarebirth]

What do you mean You "doubt it's true"? You think I made it up?

I have no idea what the fees ar know. This was 15-20 years ago.

You may not recall it correctly or you may have misunderstood different translations of the price structure for different prices or... you may be right.

So, do you have any reference? A website, a scan of a flyer, whatever? I have tried an online search in both English and Italian using the keyword "lire" instead of "euro" to be sure to get old prices but all the prices mentioned were the same for all.

P.S. And you still haven't told me how much were the Thais paying nor have I seen an akwnoledgement for the crap shot you took with Switzerland...

How would I know (or care) what the Thai were paying, I'm American.

[BAF]

What do you mean You "doubt it's true"? You think I made it up?

I have no idea what the fees ar know. This was 15-20 years ago.

You may not recall it correctly or you may have misunderstood different translations of the price structure for different prices or... you may be right.

So, do you have any reference? A website, a scan of a flyer, whatever? I have tried an online search in both English and Italian using the keyword "lire" instead of "euro" to be sure to get old prices but all the prices mentioned were the same for all.

P.S. And you still haven't told me how much were the Thais paying nor have I seen an akwnoledgement for the crap shot you took with Switzerland...

How would I know (or care) what the Thai were paying, I'm American.

And what about the rest of my post?

P.S. Do you remember at least how much you paid and/or how much Italians were paying. That would be very helpful for the online search.

Edited August 7, 2007 by BAF

[lannarebirth]

What do you mean You "doubt it's true"? You think I made it up?

I have no idea what the fees ar know. This was 15-20 years ago.

You may not recall it correctly or you may have misunderstood different translations of the price structure for different prices or... you may be right.

So, do you have any reference? A website, a scan of a flyer, whatever? I have tried an online search in both English and Italian using the keyword "lire" instead of "euro" to be sure to get old prices but all the prices mentioned were the same for all.

P.S. And you still haven't told me how much were the Thais paying nor have I seen an akwnoledgement for the crap shot you took with Switzerland...

How would I know (or care) what the Thai were paying, I'm American.

And what about the rest of my post?

What about it? You're free to continue searching if you wish, but I'm not sure there were websites back then, or even an internet. Buona Fortuna! ciao.

PS: Anyway I coudn't find anything from that time, but you can see by this link, the idea of "reciprocal agreements" is not unknown in Italia:

http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/1862/info.html

Edited August 7, 2007 by lannarebirth

[BAF]

What about it? You're free to continue searching if you wish, but I'm not sure there were websites back then, or even an internet. Buona Fortuna! ciao.

I have edited my post after you replied, I have added this P.S.: "Do you remember at least how much you paid and/or how much Italians were paying. That would be very helpful for the online search."

After all, you don't remember if it was 10 or 15 years ago but you seem to remember that there were "about 28 different entrance fees"...

BTW, the Internet was born around 15 years ago but you can find on it informations about things much older than 15 years...

For example, in our case all it takes is an archived notice of change of fees to a "once for all" fee instead of those "28" or a trip report mentioning it or countless other possibilities.

Your post on this board, for instance, will be found by someone looking for this info at some time in the future...

[BAF]

PS: Anyway I coudn't find anything from that time, but you can see by this link, the idea of "reciprocal agreements" is not unknown in Italia:

http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/1862/info.html

"The entrance fee to museum is 12.000 Lire (about 6.50$) for visitors between 18 and 60, and free for other Italian citizens or foreigners whose countries have reciprocal agreements"

The English wording may be not very clear (this isn't an official website) but what it means is that ALL are paying the same.

Italians and foreigners between 18 and 60 ALL PAY 12.000 lire. The only visitors who enter free (apart from under 18 and over 60) are foreigners "whose countries have reciprocal agreements" so it's actually something which favor (certain) foreigners because Italians themselves aren't paying in those foreigners' homecountries!

What's unfair or discriminating about it?!?

It's much more clear if you read the corresponding Italian page written for the Italian customers: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/1888/napoli.html

"Ingresso: lire 12.000 per i visitatori dai 18 ai 60 anni, gratuito per gli altri"

Literal translation: "Entry lire 12.000 for visitors between 18 and 60 years, free for the others".

Edited August 7, 2007 by BAF

[lannarebirth]

PS: Anyway I coudn't find anything from that time, but you can see by this link, the idea of "reciprocal agreements" is not unknown in Italia:

http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/1862/info.html

"The entrance fee to museum is 12.000 Lire (about 6.50$) for visitors between 18 and 60, and free for other Italian citizens or foreigners whose countries have reciprocal agreements"

The English wording may be not very clear (this isn't an official website) but what it means is that ALL are paying the same.

Italians and foreigners between 18 and 60 ALL PAY 12.000 lire. The only visitors who enter free (apart from under 18 and over 60) are foreigners "whose countries have reciprocal agreements" so it's actually something which favor (certain) foreigners because Italians themselves aren't paying in those foreigners' homecountries!

What's unfair or discriminating about it?!?

It's much more clear if you read the corresponding Italian page written for the Italian customers: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/1888/napoli.html

"Ingresso: lire 12.000 per i visitatori dai 18 ai 60 anni, gratuito per gli altri"

Letteral translation: "Entry lire 12.000 for visitors between 18 and 60 years, free for the others".

Hey, you know, you and I could be related. I come from a long line of Italian anarchists. Shot or hung most of them.

Anyway, as I said, that wasn't the venue I visited. I only posted it to show that what is paid by Italians elsewhere figures into what they charge foreign tourists. None of this is Thailand related however, so buona sera.

[BAF]

Hey, you know, you and I could be related. I come from a long line of Italian anarchists. Shot or hung most of them.

Can't be I have long learned that the true freedom comes from the strict enforcement of fair laws not from the lackadaisical enforcement of unfair laws (like for example in Thailand or Cambodia)...

Anyway, as I said, that wasn't the venue I visited. I only posted it to show that what is paid by Italians elsewhere figures into what they charge foreign tourists. None of this is Thailand related however, so buona sera.

It doesn't show what you think it shows: countries like Thailand unilaterally making foreigners pay ten times what the locals pay are much different from countries retaliating these unfair practices and from countries waving fees in force of BILATERAL agreements.

[BAF]

What I'm saying is that whoever mentioned 'xenophobia' wasn't correct. Mostly because there are plenty of foreigners who are living here permanently (and legally).

"Plenty"??

Italy is a country roughly the same size as Thailand and more than 5% of its population is made up of first generation legal migrants (almost 3 millions people, and those -VERY MANY- who have already got citizenship aren't counted).

Are you saying that if you randomly round up 100 Thailand's residents an average of about 5 of them are foreign PR holders?

In other words, how many is your "plenty"?

Well, I guess that for a xenophobic country the 100 PRs per nationality per year that Thailand tolerates IS "plenty"...

It's more accurately 'discrimination' and just an 'unfair' system.

GO, HENG, GO! You are almost there! You have finally admitted that's discrimination and an unfair system. Now, what motivates that discrimination? What are the reasons for having, keeping and not changing/fighting that unfair system..?

Have yet to have a green card, but I do have three passports. The third was optional... I chose a country whose requirements I met, and applied for citizenship. If I picked one where I didn't meet the requirements but for some reason put down roots there anyway, I'd probably be whinging about it from another country as well.

Weird, why the whinging? Haven't you already taught me that that would have been lack of planning on your part and thus entirely your fault?

Edited August 7, 2007 by BAF

[meemiathai]

And you know what? They had double pricing there!!!!!! Can you believe it? Locals were charged less!

Interesting, can you detail?

Well it was something very trivial. In the ski resort in Turin where they held the winter olympics last year. We went to this night club, and at the entrance of it they were handing out free drinks vouchers. When we asked they said it was for locals only. And that's it. Anyway off topic.

[meemiathai]

Dup post

Edited August 8, 2007 by meemiathai

[meemiathai]

This could be really useful thread,but it just turns into bickering & name calling. BAF & samran start talking nicely & see what u guys have in common No country is perfect IT or TH ,, if samran wouldn't have thai ppt you'd sing different songs.. Same with BAF . i can live anywhere in EU , without a hint of discrimination, but i don't (visit frequently thou) & in my books it is as third world as it gets. But this is TV, so all the luk kreungs who read this !! You are THAIS right happy .

Now all thais seem to have in their culture to take care of their parents , yeah families are weak here, but still if parents do stay together that INCLUDES FATHERS ! Now imagine a scenario, if u have a decent chap some european,or north american "refugee" who got married here, lived here, made children, they grow up to the age of samran & heng (sorry shouldn't be name calling ) . Now even if father is above 60 y.o. , but OH HORROR , he couldn't save 800,000 !!! well coz , he can't really 'slave' here ,, had to buy houe in his wife's name bring uo his children ..

WHAT do you proud thai citizens see yourself doing, taking care of your father ?!?>> wheeling him monthly on his visa runs to Poipet border, occasionally leaving him in casino every 3 months, because well, he can't be tourist here for too long , can he

Well I don't have a thai passport. But I am a thai apologist. I am quite happy with the rules now. Not saying that BAF is wrong though. But I think BAF is looking at it too superficially.

[BAF]

Well it was something very trivial.

I see.

I actually thought you had something to say since you have been mentioning this "double pricing" in Italy (which we now know it wasn't such) several times already in several threads...

Edited August 8, 2007 by BAF

[BAF]

Not saying that BAF is wrong though. But I think BAF is looking at it too superficially.

You may call me many things but superficial I am not. I don't see that many other posters here who go to the level of detail I go and who so precisely point-by-point reply as I am used to.

"Superficial" has been the level of the discussion the smiling blind daydreaming Thai apologist brigade has purposely chosen to keep by never following through the punctual replies they have been getting...