Is Thailand Really 'the Land Of Smiles?"

[stevemiddie]

In my hometown of Doncaster, UK ........any smile at a stranger is likely to produce one of two reactions............A blank stare......or usually.........." What the <deleted> you smiling at <deleted> ! " Followed by a headbutt.

Hence the reason for relocating.

Very true steve. Smiles from strangers are definitely suspect in the UK.

But I don't know if that is enough to make one flee the country?

Nahhhhhhhhhh just one of many little reasons that when i put them altogether made me realise i was wasting my life in the UK. Slave to a mortgage............yob graffitti everywhere. The Saturday night drunks fighting over something stupid.

My government. The freekin nanny state that we have become.

Now? Beautiful home...no mortgage. Fabulous wife, good friends........my only stresses are 1) That my class kids do well in their exams 2) What shall i eat today?

[canuckamuck]

if it’s from a stranger you can be guaranteed the smiles are fake and reflexive

if it's from a stranger in London, can one be guaranteed that the scorns and frowns are fake and reflexive? Or are they real?

I think the Brits are lot more honest and clear about their feelings.

[Artisan]

What is a real smile and what is a fake one by the way?

I agree......a smile is a smile is a smile.

[yorkieb]

My GF is Thai and I tell her not to smile. She's got one of those photogenic sultry looks when she looks seroius. Smileing she looks kind of goofy.

[SamuiJens]

Smiling is all an illution in Thailand!

[oswaldcassidy]

And if it is. Are the Smiles genuine?

Or do they mostly only smile when they are getting money out of you eh?

u got it in 1 they smile cos they got your money and nothing else

[siam2007]

its great to see that its still possible to discuss such a topic in Thaivisa in a friendly, objective way.

and some good statements have been made. willl use them from time to time when there is the usual war between the "bashers" and the "hover on cloud 9 with pink-glasses on" and me inmidst the raging crowds

as for myself, the most and most genuine smiles I have ever received (and through a lot of visits in all the years there) came from the people in Central Jawa (Yogyakarta, Solo a.s.o.), no matter if it's the 74-year old Tricycle driver with just 4 teeth left in his mouth, the 25 year old receptionist at a local hotel, or the 8 year old school-girl on the street... whenever I am there, my soul is getting its needed sunshine and warmth, enough for the next couple of months...

but thats just my very personal experience and I accept any other opinions here, of course....

oh, and as for Thailand: I have seen everything from the deep south in Satun to the Northest as North can be in Mae Sai, from Kanchanaburi to Nakhon Phanom, but the most genuine smiles I ever received in Thgailand (and receive every time when I am there) I get in Udon Thani, which I find the most friendly town in the entire kingdom.....

Edited July 13, 2007 by siam2007

[Valjean]

I think many people here are right that the simile has different meanings. Maybe this link will be edited out but here is a good list of the Thai smiles. http://www.into-asia.com/thailand/culture/smile.php Also as a graphic with the list. Below is the text from the web page. All credit to Into Asia for this.

I just went over this with my gf and she knew every smile and showed me what it looked like. Very fun and you should try this at home. The point is the Thai's aren't at all confused when they get the "yim mee lay-nai" smile. They know exactly what it is.

As is so typical on this forum cultural differences as looked at via a lens of the posters culture and just lays in a lot of judgments (and for most of us from Western countries our culture is so judgment based - as in "waiting for the judgment day" that this comes very natural to us.) It's not better or worse - it's just the way it is here. I happy and like the smiles but I sure a heck know they mean different things that are clear from context. And of course sometimes I think I'm getting a nice smile but it's something else...

Right before this I was having a discussion with my gf on costs on house work upcountry and a lot of money that was leaking from the ATM. What it cost and where the money was going wasn't 100% clear. I asked her after looking over this Thai smile list what smile she as giving me when we were talking about this and she said (with a big smile): "yim soo The "my-situation-is-so-bad-I-might-as-well-smile" smile. You see she knew it all along and if I understand the right smile I know that she knows she has to come clean on something and I know after all this time that I should shut up and wait for the pillow talk later. She just wants to think about it and talk when she's ready.

Lighten up and smile!!!

From Into Asia: The 'Land of Smiles' ?

Travel brochures often portrays Thailand as the happy-go-lucky 'Land of Smiles', an impression the Tourism Authority of Thailand are more than happy to go along with. Most visitors will even see a sign welcoming them to the 'Land of Smile' (sic) in the airport before they've even cleared immigration. Though the famous Thai smile is not so common in Bangkok nowadays, you'll certainly understand why this slogan has stuck for so long if you spend any length of time in the more rural parts of Thailand. Even in Bangkok, you can smile at any Thai person and it's pretty rare you won't get a smile back in return.

New visitors often assume that the Thais are a very friendly and happy people, but this is a bit of an oversimplification. After all, many of the Thais they meet may well be working long hours in relatively menial jobs and earning less than $200 a month - do they really have so much to smile about ?

The reason is there's a much broader range of uses for smiling in Thailand, some of which would be considered as inappropriate or even as rude in the west. For example, if a Thai bumps into you in a bar and spills some of your drink, he'll probably smile - a reaction that is unlikely to go down well with the average foreigner.

But the smile (yim in Thai) is perceived in Thailand as being just about the most appropriate reaction to any possible situation. It's used to show happiness, embarrassment, fear, tension, resignation, remorse etc...What the smile means depends on the 'type' being used - out of a possible 13.

[here is where they have the graphic file]

So you can't necessarily assume that anyone smiling is happy or friendly, because, as shown above, there are also a few less pleasant reasons for them to do so. Similarly it helps to know, for instance, that people smiling if you happen to trip up may not actually be laughing at you (yim yor), but just giving you a yim yair-yair to try and stop you feeling embarrassed.

Obviously, being able to distinguish one type of smile from another is no easy task for the average visitor to Thailand. It helps to be aware of the less pleasant varieties though and not, as many visitors do, get so mesmerized by the 'happiness' of everyone that you don't see what's really going on underneath the sometimes superficial smile.

[Tippaporn]

Excellent, Valjean. I saved this to a Word doc for future reference. A smile for every situation. So true.

Even still, I enjoy passing Thais on the street, making eye contact, giving them a "Sawatdee khrup" accompanied by a huge smile and then seeing it returned. It's a rarity in the west so I often take advantage of the opportunity here. Besides, I also see it as promoting farang friendliness and giving us a good image as well.

[Huw]

Huw - Being un PC should not get you kicked off the board. Good to read opinions that fly in the face of the wind. Not obeying forum rules is an entirely different kettle of fish!

Hmmm. Well it would be nice to think that rules were applied evenly of course. But it seems that calling me a racist is OK though asking a mod for reasonable clarification gets one threatened with suspended. Most peculiar Mama.

I read somewhere that the thai smile can be divided into 16 (?) categories, each with a different meaning. Only one or two being devoted to genuine happiness or joy.

A foreigner who plans to live or, especially, do business in Thailand is advised to try and learn all these different types of smiles as they communicate so much more than simple facial expressions.

Cheers,

Soundman.

Always good to know the guy on the other side of the easy smile and firm handshake.

H

[canuckamuck]

Notice on Valjeans list of 13 smiles, only 2 indicate some sort of positve feelings. The other 11 are used in negative connotations or are mean apirited. There is also no smile listed for just being happy or good natured, which is what the LOS seems to imply.

[Gary A]

Phony smiles or not, (mostly NOT) they are much better to see than that look you get in western countries. You KNOW that look. They might as well ask you if you are goofy smiling like that.

I get a kick out of groups of younger kids. I look at them and wink at one of them. I get peals of laughter. In a western country they would be looking for a cop to arrest this old pervert.

[Valjean]

Sometimes I really feel I’m living in a different Thailand – it’s as if I’m Harry Potter and went through immigration gate 13 ½ and ended up in a different place than some…

There are all normal kinds of people in the Thailand I live in – some are happy and some aren’t. Some I trust and some I don’t. But I sure see a lot more authentic happy smiles in my day to day life here – at work (I’m one of 2 farang in a 140 person company), around Thai friends and family and just with everyday interactions. One of the things that never ceases to amaze me are the smiles and laughter I see around me. Today watching a policeman writing a ticket to two teens on their motorbike, people in the back of pick-ups, construction workers doing backbreaking work in the heat of the sun – all around me I see laughter and smiles in the gritty and tough day to day life.

This past week we had a company meeting for two days at a beach resort. I’ve worked for this company and traveled all around the world attending business meetings and functions for over a decade. No where have I seen teams have such a fun time, and continue to smile, even in the midst of endless mind-numbing PowerPoint hours. And when it’s time to play they play with an abandon I’ve never seen in the US – whether organized games or just dancing and singing our heads off into the wee hours.

The fact that so many of the smiles seem counter-intuitive to the emotion or situation seems to me not to be some sort of insincerity rather I think it reflects something central to the Thai culture. Accepting things like they are and doing the best with the hand you’re dealt. Clearly like any personal or cultural trait there are good and bad sides in how things play out. A good life is full of sanook and for the moments and times that aren’t sanook you may as well put a brave smile on and make the most of it. Makes sense to me.

Take the example of the “yim haring” smile. There is an equivalent look the United Airlines baggage agent will give you when they lose your luggage. And at the core the Thai smile and the American resigned look are saying the same thing “I didn’t lose your luggage, I’m doing what I can so don’t give me a hard time”. Whatever culture we come from we learn how to read these expressions quite well. (I’ve heard one of the things that is so difficult for Autistic children is that they can’t read facial expressions and understand the emotions behind them.) It just seems that for some it’s hard to get past the fact that this same message could be delivered in different ways. I can’t really say one is innately better than the other but for me the Thai way, the Thai smile, suits me just fine. If it’s a superficial veneer of pleasantness overlaid on top of life’s tough times so be it. What the better alternative – to scowl?

[Luckydog]

I just love a poll with one choice--Is that how the gov't does their polls?

I just love peeps who can't read........Didn't I write that the poll went awry? Twit!

[Luckydog]

..........edited

I get real smiles from my Thai friends and family but the rest is a put on.

To answer Luckydog's poll the closest I can com is #4. Because it's a habit?

The smile is the decoration on the Thai Face which is their most guarded possession. Smiling is camouflage, a way of keeping real emotions behind the mask.

Quote from Huw

At last! a view based on actual thought and not just reaction. I fully expect to be banned or suspended for having non-politically-correct views, even if they are supported by evidence, but what the hel_l, life is too short to date ugly women or to worry about people who want to pick a fight - right? Here goes then.

Indeed the Thai smile is just that, camouflage, or to use better possible terms, 'armouring' or 'masking'. It is created for a number of reasons, 'Greng Jai' is one, but the most important imho is fear. Fear that if you let someone know what you are thinking or what you are feeling or what is going on in your life, then they have a potential advantage over you. But the seemingly obsessive camouflaging is only one outward aspect of a much wider and deeper cultural approach to life, one in which they are immersed from birth and one which (unless they get significant exposure to a different culture during their adolescence or early adulthood) they will find almost impossible to escape. It is also very suggestive of repression which cannot in my view be entirely healthy. I notice that it is next to impossible to get statistics relating to the suicide rate in Thailand, partly imho because suicide is an unacceptable event which would conflict with the national self-image, and partly because it would suggest a cultural failing which would then have to be addressed.

The title 'Land of smiles' has much more to do with how the Thais would like to be perceived than any reality that may exist. At the risk of attracting the flame throwers and mods, I believe that Thais are adept at camouflaging the very big difference between their actual character traits and the appearance they wish to project. It is a simple deception, though one that (particularly among the poorer of the population who have less to protect) is much more motivated by fear than any wish to deceive.

As I speak I have a copy of 'The Psychology of the Thai People' in front of me, a wonderful and very revealing document produced by a Thai PhD. It is certain that when confronted with a conflict between our uniquely personal world view and a (perhaps very different) world view suggested by science and experts, our own world view generally prevails. It represents our comfort zone and is relinquished reluctantly. Thus the Thai concept that Thais are a spiritual, happy and smiling people will prevail despite a huge amount evidence to the contrary.

As I see it (and this is a personal opinion only), Thailand is a feudal and class-ridden system, and its people are neither affluent (except for the ruling elite), nor happy, though they believe it is sensible to pretend otherwise, hence the semi-permanent smile. It is a primitive and superstitious society, replete with a huge array of totems and arcane beliefs. Thais have a child-like obsession with fun and currying favour, and are generally hugely concerned with seeking reassurance or approval from people, especially farang, whose ranks they would dearly love to join because they think all farang have money, intellect and skill. This relationship is double-edged though, because although they covet the farang, they are deeply afraid and mistrusting of the farang and his/her apparent wealth, skill and knowledge.

Since I came to live in Thailand 3 years ago, I have been through the usual stages of fascination, wonderment, disillusion and eventually disdain. Does this make me less happy here? No, living in Thailand is still better than living in the UK imho. Does any of this make many Thais less charming when in a one-on-one situation? No. But does any of this make me less able or prepared to see the wood for the trees? No.

Am I qualified to give an opinion on the Thai psyche? Yes and I am happy to say why if asked. In the meantime lets hope I don't get any more threats from people who don't like my views or who wish to maintain their own world view aand make it compulsory for everyone. Intelligent discussion and opinion-sharing is never a bad thing.

/rant off

H

Thank you Pal. I regard this as the difinive answer to my humble post.

Edited July 14, 2007 by Luckydog

[Monroe]

Thank you Pal. I regard this as the difinive answer to my humble post.

Are you serious?

All he did was repeat what he read in a book published by a Ph.D and assert that he was fully qualified to give such an answer.

Going with a sole answer, particularly the one supplied by Huw, would be like me saying:

1. Blacks are criminals.

2. Muslims are terrorists.

3. Farang males do nothing but smell up bars all day, until they go home with a prostitute.

But we all know each action only applies to a certain, small percentage of their respective demographic.

The only definitive thing is that people are their own individuals and blanket generalizations don't suffice in defining them.

/PC

[zzdocxx]

BBC fake smile test: http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbody/mind/surveys/smiles/

I found this interesting. I read a long article about this type of thing in the New Yorker a year or two ago, alot of it focused on Paul Ekman and his work.

Thanks!

[zzdocxx]

Valjean, is there a "graphic file" that goes with the list on intoasia website? Does it have photos or illustrations to accompany the list?

I am not getting any pics on the linked intoasia website.

Thanks,

John

<--- (yim tak tai!) Hmmm, maybe we need corresponding emoticons for each.

I think many people here are right that the simile has different meanings. Maybe this link will be edited out but here is a good list of the Thai smiles. http://www.into-asia.com/thailand/culture/smile.php Also as a graphic with the list. Below is the text from the web page. All credit to Into Asia for this.

I just went over this with my gf and she knew every smile and showed me what it looked like. Very fun and you should try this at home. The point is the Thai's aren't at all confused when they get the "yim mee lay-nai" smile. They know exactly what it is.

As is so typical on this forum cultural differences as looked at via a lens of the posters culture and just lays in a lot of judgments (and for most of us from Western countries our culture is so judgment based - as in "waiting for the judgment day" that this comes very natural to us.) It's not better or worse - it's just the way it is here. I happy and like the smiles but I sure a heck know they mean different things that are clear from context. And of course sometimes I think I'm getting a nice smile but it's something else...

Right before this I was having a discussion with my gf on costs on house work upcountry and a lot of money that was leaking from the ATM. What it cost and where the money was going wasn't 100% clear. I asked her after looking over this Thai smile list what smile she as giving me when we were talking about this and she said (with a big smile): "yim soo The "my-situation-is-so-bad-I-might-as-well-smile" smile. You see she knew it all along and if I understand the right smile I know that she knows she has to come clean on something and I know after all this time that I should shut up and wait for the pillow talk later. She just wants to think about it and talk when she's ready.

Lighten up and smile!!!

From Into Asia: The 'Land of Smiles' ?

Travel brochures often portrays Thailand as the happy-go-lucky 'Land of Smiles', an impression the Tourism Authority of Thailand are more than happy to go along with. Most visitors will even see a sign welcoming them to the 'Land of Smile' (sic) in the airport before they've even cleared immigration. Though the famous Thai smile is not so common in Bangkok nowadays, you'll certainly understand why this slogan has stuck for so long if you spend any length of time in the more rural parts of Thailand. Even in Bangkok, you can smile at any Thai person and it's pretty rare you won't get a smile back in return.

New visitors often assume that the Thais are a very friendly and happy people, but this is a bit of an oversimplification. After all, many of the Thais they meet may well be working long hours in relatively menial jobs and earning less than $200 a month - do they really have so much to smile about ?

The reason is there's a much broader range of uses for smiling in Thailand, some of which would be considered as inappropriate or even as rude in the west. For example, if a Thai bumps into you in a bar and spills some of your drink, he'll probably smile - a reaction that is unlikely to go down well with the average foreigner.

But the smile (yim in Thai) is perceived in Thailand as being just about the most appropriate reaction to any possible situation. It's used to show happiness, embarrassment, fear, tension, resignation, remorse etc...What the smile means depends on the 'type' being used - out of a possible 13.

[here is where they have the graphic file]

So you can't necessarily assume that anyone smiling is happy or friendly, because, as shown above, there are also a few less pleasant reasons for them to do so. Similarly it helps to know, for instance, that people smiling if you happen to trip up may not actually be laughing at you (yim yor), but just giving you a yim yair-yair to try and stop you feeling embarrassed.

Obviously, being able to distinguish one type of smile from another is no easy task for the average visitor to Thailand. It helps to be aware of the less pleasant varieties though and not, as many visitors do, get so mesmerized by the 'happiness' of everyone that you don't see what's really going on underneath the sometimes superficial smile.

Edited September 3, 2007 by zzdocxx

[true blue]

the other side of the coin when i took my g/f back home to uk i mentioned to her be careful who you smile at when out down town or shopping as they willl think you have escaped from somewere or your up for it sad really as she very friendly and likes to wai and smile

[geriatrickid]

At least you get a smile here, it's like drawing hens teeth trying to get a smile from someone back in UK

Take it as someone being considerate. The expression "english teeth" should give one a hint as to why that is so.

[Pundi64]

And if it is. Are the Smiles genuine?

Or do they mostly only smile when they are getting money out of you eh?

I find that a smile gets a return smile back, now isn't that a concept- try it you might like it!

[Bpraim1]

I smile at the ATM too, until it breaks or no more money comes out!

[track61]

3 - pretty nice folk unless you rile them up, but I think that's standard anywhere

Can't argue with that........#3 it definitely is. Anyway, whatever is behind the Thai smile isn't so important as the smile itself. A smile tells us how much of life is best left unspoken. We can choose to smile or we can choose to sink.

Is swimming an option? With maybe some really great smiles once safely ashore?

[UnknownPoster]

All of the above and many more.

Thailand is the "Land of Smiles"

Thais smile when they are happy (making money, partying, having a good time).

Thais smile when they like you.

Thais smile when they are don't like you.

Thais smile when they are embarassed.

Thais smile to avoid conflict.

Thais smile to mask anger.

The smile in Thailand is the "one expression fits all" response to just about everything. Are the smiles "genuine" you ask. In the Thai sense, yes!

Thai smiles are multi purpose. The real ones look just like the fake ones.

[track61]

I hate to be the odd man out (actually no I don't) but I do not think this is the land of smiles; not real smiles, I think the name is stupid, a pipe dream. I know if you look at someone you will get a smile back but it's not genuine. It is more like they are saying why are you looking at me? Maybe if I smile back I won't look like I have nothing to say or don't know what's going on.

Another smile you will see is, come on over here you brainless rich farang and buy everything in my shop. The BG's use that same smile for different merchandise.

If you take of the rose colored glasses you will see you actually get a lot of blank looks or even disapproving glares, and most people won't pay any attention to you at all. That's why they butt in front of you in line, you're invisible.

Whatever you might want to wish, if it's from a stranger you can be guaranteed the smiles are fake and reflexive.

I get real smiles from my Thai friends and family but the rest is a put on.

To answer Luckydog's poll the closest I can com is #4. Because it's a habit?

The smile is the decoration on the Thai Face which is their most guarded possession. Smiling is camouflage, a way of keeping real emotions behind the mask.

At last! a view based on actual thought and not just reaction. I fully expect to be banned or suspended for having non-politically-correct views, even if they are supported by evidence, but what the hel_l, life is too short to date ugly women or to worry about people who want to pick a fight - right? Here goes then.

Indeed the Thai smile is just that, camouflage, or to use better possible terms, 'armouring' or 'masking'. It is created for a number of reasons, 'Greng Jai' is one, but the most important imho is fear. Fear that if you let someone know what you are thinking or what you are feeling or what is going on in your life, then they have a potential advantage over you. But the seemingly obsessive camouflaging is only one outward aspect of a much wider and deeper cultural approach to life, one in which they are immersed from birth and one which (unless they get significant exposure to a different culture during their adolescence or early adulthood) they will find almost impossible to escape. It is also very suggestive of repression which cannot in my view be entirely healthy. I notice that it is next to impossible to get statistics relating to the suicide rate in Thailand, partly imho because suicide is an unacceptable event which would conflict with the national self-image, and partly because it would suggest a cultural failing which would then have to be addressed.

The title 'Land of smiles' has much more to do with how the Thais would like to be perceived than any reality that may exist. At the risk of attracting the flame throwers and mods, I believe that Thais are adept at camouflaging the very big difference between their actual character traits and the appearance they wish to project. It is a simple deception, though one that (particularly among the poorer of the population who have less to protect) is much more motivated by fear than any wish to deceive.

As I speak I have a copy of 'The Psychology of the Thai People' in front of me, a wonderful and very revealing document produced by a Thai PhD. It is certain that when confronted with a conflict between our uniquely personal world view and a (perhaps very different) world view suggested by science and experts, our own world view generally prevails. It represents our comfort zone and is relinquished reluctantly. Thus the Thai concept that Thais are a spiritual, happy and smiling people will prevail despite a huge amount evidence to the contrary.

As I see it (and this is a personal opinion only), Thailand is a feudal and class-ridden system, and its people are neither affluent (except for the ruling elite), nor happy, though they believe it is sensible to pretend otherwise, hence the semi-permanent smile. It is a primitive and superstitious society, replete with a huge array of totems and arcane beliefs. Thais have a child-like obsession with fun and currying favour, and are generally hugely concerned with seeking reassurance or approval from people, especially farang, whose ranks they would dearly love to join because they think all farang have money, intellect and skill. This relationship is double-edged though, because although they covet the farang, they are deeply afraid and mistrusting of the farang and his/her apparent wealth, skill and knowledge.

Since I came to live in Thailand 3 years ago, I have been through the usual stages of fascination, wonderment, disillusion and eventually disdain. Does this make me less happy here? No, living in Thailand is still better than living in the UK imho. Does any of this make many Thais less charming when in a one-on-one situation? No. But does any of this make me less able or prepared to see the wood for the trees? No.

Am I qualified to give an opinion on the Thai psyche? Yes and I am happy to say why if asked. In the meantime lets hope I don't get any more threats from people who don't like my views or who wish to maintain their own world view aand make it compulsory for everyone. Intelligent discussion and opinion-sharing is never a bad thing.

/rant off

H

I tend to agree with your general thinking since I have no way to evaluate the millions of Thais I I don't know. I also feel that most of the Thais I know are genuinely nice people and their smiles reflect that. What I do wonder is why you seem think your opinion is important enough to warrant a violent, or any for that matter, reaction.

[toptuan]

Yes, Thailand certainly IS the Land of Smiles ...

The REAL Thailand IS the Land of Smiles, but not Bangkok...typical big, impersonal city, where everyone hurries about their own business, ignoring everyone else.

[Suszzy]

no matter what happens...

thais always..smiles!!!!!

but behind that smiles...who knows?

[JimmyCA]

I don't consider thais nice friendly people

Try not giving them enough baht and you will see a different side

[Dont Panic]

Sorry I didn't read all the posts and perhaps someone has already mentioned this.......was the phrase 'LOS' not just made up by the TAT just like other such fantastic phrases by other countries such as... Malaysia truly Asia? Thais dont smile anymore than any other people I've met that's for sure...

[intumult]

Blast! the poll went wrong! Sorry.

Please for give me your answer -

Why do they Smile?

1. Because they like us? Some do

2. Because they are hoping to get money from us? Often

3. Because they are nice friendly people? Some are

4. Because it's a habit? yes

Add to that they smile to hide the lies and deception and hope you cannot see beyond the smile.

[maybe I keep meeting the wrong types ]