Airport Hotel Monopoly

[bendix]

If the client was clued up and the market hadn't moved, he/she wouldn't stand for any of your "The market is now better informed weazel speak" I've been in that situation many times before.Unless you are very,very good at your job and have built up a very good relationship with your customer,then I would guess the win/loss would be around 50/50.

Whatever you want to call the above example,most people can see it for what it is...a deception as to what is the current market rate is.

OK . let me put it another way. <deleted> to the market. The market for me working for anyone is whatever I determine it to be. If I consider it to be enough, it's enough. If I put it higher and the client accepts, fantastic for me. If they say it's my rate minus 50%, I will say 'the hel_l it is" and walk away.

If i put it higher for purely selfish reasons and the client declines, boo-bloody-hoo. I've lost out, but no big deal.

There . . . . market forces in a nutshell.

(PS .. it goes without saying that i am very very good at my job, otherwise . . well, you get the picture)

Edited July 16, 2007 by bendix

[think_too_mut]

You DO realise, don't you, when ten people are checking out in the morning, it's highly likely not one of them paid the same price? Same on a plane . . .

The exact same price for all. That is exactly what happens at the Glen Waverly Novotel. Their corporate governance.

All guests pay the same price. The hotel knows they are the only one in the area, so no deals, no discounts. But no surprises or pawns (receptionists) creating and exercising their own view of corporate well being.

Back to the OP, if I were on a business trip and faced the same misconduct of duty at Novotel, my APJ VP would be calling Accor's APJ VP to see what is happening.

Same as (then) CEO of Qantas James Strong, called my CEO to get an explanation about an incident my team member had ignited on a Qantas flight.

[chuchok]

If the client was clued up and the market hadn't moved, he/she wouldn't stand for any of your "The market is now better informed weazel speak" I've been in that situation many times before.Unless you are very,very good at your job and have built up a very good relationship with your customer,then I would guess the win/loss would be around 50/50.

Whatever you want to call the above example,most people can see it for what it is...a deception as to what is the current market rate is.

OK . let me put it another way. <deleted> to the market. The market for me working for anyone is whatever I determine it to be. If I consider it to be enough, it's enough. If I put it higher and the client accepts, fantastic for me. If they say it's my rate minus 50%, I will say 'the hel_l it is" and walk away.

If i put it higher for purely selfish reasons and the client declines, boo-bloody-hoo. I've lost out, but no big deal.

There . . . . market forces in a nutshell.

(PS .. it goes without saying that i am very very good at my job, otherwise . . well, you get the picture)

It could also been seen as short term thinking.(You probably need to be around a bit longer to work that one out though) Fantastic when you have plenty of work ,bad when things dry up.

Edited July 16, 2007 by chuchok

[bendix]

It's ok mate. I'm only in this game for two more years maximum anyway ;-)

[samran]

You DO realise, don't you, when ten people are checking out in the morning, it's highly likely not one of them paid the same price? Same on a plane . . .

The exact same price for all. That is exactly what happens at the Glen Waverly Novotel. Their corporate governance.

All guests pay the same price. The hotel knows they are the only one in the area, so no deals, no discounts. But no surprises or pawns (receptionists) creating and exercising their own view of corporate well being.

Back to the OP, if I were on a business trip and faced the same misconduct of duty at Novotel, my APJ VP would be calling Accor's APJ VP to see what is happening.

Same as (then) CEO of Qantas James Strong, called my CEO to get an explanation about an incident my team member had ignited on a Qantas flight.

Glen Waverly...Glen Waverly?? Think Milton Keynes in the UK, Orange County in California or Sophia Antopolis when going to Nice!!!

You'd have to pay me to stay at the Novotel Glen Waverly. Admittedly, 'the Glen' has comes leaps and bounds in recent years, and you can get a decent latte, but no one is going to be traveling there for the sights and sounds of Brandon Park shopping centre, Syndal railway station, or to watch traffic get stuck on Spingvale Rd.

You'd have to admit you are comparing apples with oranges there... I mean the Novotel in GW is primarily for small conferences etc, and people headed out to the CSIRO, Monash University and the light industial ring which is out there etc etc where it makes sense to have standard flat rate, so that people actually come to the area.

I mean, I'm not going to be getting off the plane at Melbourne Airport at 11pm at night, bleary eyed and saying to myself "I HAVE to stay at the Novotel in Glen Waverly" which is a 45 minute, $80 taxi ride away. And that is using Citylink!!

[bendix]

And not only that, samran, but I believe there is a local by-law that only people with particularly splendid mullets are allowed to live there.

So, in that respect, pure market forces are being interfered with.

[torrenova]

As the OP seems familiar with Bangkok, he could, as he mentions, have got an hotel room for Bt1500 or so in the city centre.

An internet log on would surely have found a selection of hotels as would one of the numerous accommodation desks.

It is a rip off and undefensible but the OP paid it. Was it covered by insurance such as on an American Express Centurian card ? Did the airline pay ? Why was the flight missed ? All these things together paint the true picture of how much the room was worth.

As for the beer at Bt395, I can honestly say, that unless it was for a pint or 0.5L, then I find that hard to believe if official pricing. 5* places in Bangkok do not attract those prices, neither do 5* places in airports in many countries far more expensive than Bangkok.

[think_too_mut]

You DO realise, don't you, when ten people are checking out in the morning, it's highly likely not one of them paid the same price? Same on a plane . . .

The exact same price for all. That is exactly what happens at the Glen Waverly Novotel. Their corporate governance.

All guests pay the same price. The hotel knows they are the only one in the area, so no deals, no discounts. But no surprises or pawns (receptionists) creating and exercising their own view of corporate well being.

Back to the OP, if I were on a business trip and faced the same misconduct of duty at Novotel, my APJ VP would be calling Accor's APJ VP to see what is happening.

Same as (then) CEO of Qantas James Strong, called my CEO to get an explanation about an incident my team member had ignited on a Qantas flight.

Glen Waverly...Glen Waverly?? Think Milton Keynes in the UK, Orange County in California or Sophia Antopolis when going to Nice!!!

You'd have to pay me to stay at the Novotel Glen Waverly. Admittedly, 'the Glen' has comes leaps and bounds in recent years, and you can get a decent latte, but no one is going to be traveling there for the sights and sounds of Brandon Park shopping centre, Syndal railway station, or to watch traffic get stuck on Spingvale Rd.

You'd have to admit you are comparing apples with oranges there... I mean the Novotel in GW is primarily for small conferences etc, and people headed out to the CSIRO, Monash University and the light industial ring which is out there etc etc where it makes sense to have standard flat rate, so that people actually come to the area.

I have to admit that you are lost.

Glen Waverley - stayed there 7 times, 1 week each, never seen 1 single conference. Except a half day one, by ANZ bank that has a data center nearby. All guest were business travellers, the car park gets empty by 8:30 and a line of taxis is always ready there.

And there is no better way to compare apples to apples than Novotel hotels among themselves, like MacDonalds in US and and MacDonalds in China.

Milton Keynes - stayed there 2 weeks "Post House Hotel" - same thing, but their staff won't be allowed to rip off the guests. Even there a beer would be half price than what OP was charged.

I mean, I'm not going to be getting off the plane at Melbourne Airport at 11pm at night, bleary eyed and saying to myself "I HAVE to stay at the Novotel in Glen Waverly" which is a 45 minute, $80 taxi ride away. And that is using Citylink!!

That is exactly what happens to 90% of Novotel Glen Waverley guests: get off the plane, get a rentacar and a map, get some spare change for tolls and head to Glen Waverley. At any time I have 1-2 of Japanese staff doing just that, staying right there.

Nobody in their right mind would stay there on their own money, it's always forced by business and still nobody steals from guests hoping it will go unnoticed as no individuals pay themselves.

What better similarity between the two hotels you want: both receive guests who are forced to come there - by business, missed flights, day rest between flights....and in Glen Waverley case you would expect even more rampant "creative charging" as nobody pays out of their own pocket.

Edited July 20, 2007 by think_too_mut

[samran]

I think you are missing my point.

Novotel Glen Waverley while it is the only decent hotel in that part of the world for business travellers, doesn't have the same market power as the Novotel at BKK Airport which takes advantage of people missing connections, on stop overs etc etc, plus the business traveller. As you said, the one in Glen Waverley is aimed at business accounts, so their prices are probably typically uniform, and relatively high. They must maximise their revenues using that approach. So they use different approaches to pricing methodolgy, so what? As long as neither are illegal, then I don't see what the fuss is about.

As for being lost, while it is highly embarrasing to be comparing levels of my 'Glen Waverley' street cred vs yours, I know the area fairly well (not quite my old stopming ground, but close enough), and I do remember the local 'Leader' newspaper stating that when it was being built, conferences (small one, not international) were part of their target market.

[Gary A]

I have never stayed in an airport hotel in my life. Not even when my company was paying for it. I DON'T like fancy hotels to start with and am much happier in a mom and pop type guest house. I'd say that there are a half dozen hotels within a few kilometers of the airport although it may be difficult to get a 20 baht bus to take you there. I think MOST airports have a surcharge for airport taxis. If you don't want to pay a 50 baht surcharge to save the BIG baht on a hotel, there's not much anyone can do to help you.

[think_too_mut]

Novotel Glen Waverley while it is the only decent hotel in that part of the world for business travellers, doesn't have the same market power as the Novotel at BKK Airport which takes advantage of people missing connections, on stop overs etc etc, plus the business traveller.

There is NO extra market power within large corporations that would be left to local staff to judge it, resort to stealing and ruin the reputation.

MacDonalds could be 100 miles away from the nearest restaurant and they won't be allowed to charge you for that extra "market power".

Well, they might, until reported. That's all the fuss about this thread.

[samran]

Novotel Glen Waverley while it is the only decent hotel in that part of the world for business travellers, doesn't have the same market power as the Novotel at BKK Airport which takes advantage of people missing connections, on stop overs etc etc, plus the business traveller.

There is NO extra market power within large corporations that would be left to local staff to judge it, resort to stealing and ruin the reputation.

MacDonalds could be 100 miles away from the nearest restaurant and they won't be allowed to charge you for that extra "market power".

Well, they might, until reported. That's all the fuss about this thread.

Um, McDonalds prices their product a different way. That their business model. Why should the Novotel not be allowed to maximise their profits given the circumstances they face in Bangkok? Who says that Novotel in Australia has to follow the same rules given that their clientel is different.

Who says the novotel staff were trying to steal? How can they be stealing when the OP would have been given an official receipt, with the staff memeber responsible entering the trasaction to be audited at a later point?

I just checked online the rates at the airport. 12K per night for a double bed suite, last minute, online. Cheaper rooms available of course, but 12K is on the price list.

[think_too_mut]

Novotel Glen Waverley while it is the only decent hotel in that part of the world for business travellers, doesn't have the same market power as the Novotel at BKK Airport which takes advantage of people missing connections, on stop overs etc etc, plus the business traveller.

There is NO extra market power within large corporations that would be left to local staff to judge it, resort to stealing and ruin the reputation.

MacDonalds could be 100 miles away from the nearest restaurant and they won't be allowed to charge you for that extra "market power".

Well, they might, until reported. That's all the fuss about this thread.

Who says the novotel staff were trying to steal? How can they be stealing when the OP would have been given an official receipt, with the staff memeber responsible entering the trasaction to be audited at a later point?

I just checked online the rates at the airport. 12K per night for a double bed suite, last minute, online. Cheaper rooms available of course, but 12K is on the price list.

The OP was:

The only hotel in the airport is screwing its customers hard. Arrived weary at the check-in, and the receptionist scribbled a price down, which, I was shocked, 12,400 per night.I asked for the real rate, explained that I missed my flight,and was looking for Thai price, I explained I know the score, downtown Bkk, many for 1,000 to 2,000 bt. she scribbled down 7300,bt I want promo price please, "this is five star" she snooted,I asked her for a copy of the tarrif, "we dont have one" and I certainly souldn't see one on display. I said, I only stay in five star! Last week in Korat, 1300, perfect! Having gained a bit of ground , I smiled as she scribbled down 4,700.I accepted, and once I got the key, whispered to her,all the 5 star hotels I have stayed, they didn't use scraps of scribbled paper,and always displayed a tarrif.

Went to the room, weary and gaggin for a Heineken,couldn't afford to pay the mini-bar prices......small can.....200++ =235bt a can, but I was in luck, It was happy hour in the bar, two Heineken for 333++ =395bt. I had 10 minutes to get to the bar, before the happy event finished, then it was costing 395 for one glass of draft!

I contacted the manager to confirm the prices, and he told me it was 5 star,I explained, if he paid his Thai staff 20,000 a month I will pay his prices,It amounts to this, each glass of Heineken purchased,pays for 2 staff for their 12 hours of hard work, in actual fact, they are costing the hotel about 15 baht a day.The manager was aware of that fact, so, I said there are Pimps in the Capital that would be proud of them mark-ups, and to which,I accused him and their company of being morally disgracefull and that they were equal to pimps for exploitation. After a silence he apologised ,and he had no say in the situation. Just don't miss your flight is my advice,and if you want a taxi outside the airport, dont follow the arrows, its 50bt to get one , and guess where the 50bt goes.....in the direction of Manchester we believe, go up to the 4th floor, and get one outside. Extortion from the minute you land, what does the T.A.T have to say ???

[bendix]

So now we've ascertained, by samran's research, that 12000 is in fact a stated price for this particular hotel, hopefully the OP will have the good grace to come back and applaud the 'stealing' receptionist for offering him a discount.

And, perhaps, think_to_mut, will credit the same receptionist for not - in fact - stealing but, instead, doing what she could to fill the hotel rooms by negotiating the price downwards.

And this is different from the points both samran and I were trying to make earlier, how exactly?

[think_too_mut]

So now we've ascertained, by samran's research, that 12000 is in fact a stated price for this particular hotel, hopefully the OP will have the good grace to come back and applaud the 'stealing' receptionist for offering him a discount.

And, perhaps, think_to_mut, will credit the same receptionist for not - in fact - stealing but, instead, doing what she could to fill the hotel rooms by negotiating the price downwards.

And this is different from the points both samran and I were trying to make earlier, how exactly?

Who authorized the receptionist to negotiate the price down? Does she have that same authority to negotiate prices up? is it a well managed company?

Novotel is, but this particular establishment of theirs is not.

Why did the receptionist not use "market power" to get more money for her hotel?

Getting more complicated for you two?

This is a screen shot from 5 minutes ago, Novotel Suvarnabhumi web site, like booking for tonight. For 1 person, still 2 single beds, full rate is 8,500B + 550B breakfast. Still not 12,000B:

Edited July 20, 2007 by think_too_mut

[bendix]

This is a screen shot from 5 minutes ago, Novotel Suvarnabhumi web site, like booking for tonight. For 1 person, still 2 single beds, full rate is 8,500B + 550B breakfast. Still not 12,000B:

Nice selective screenshot, think_too_mut. Now go back to the same website and click on ALL room types, and see prices for all room types, not just the cheap 'deluxe' twin bed category rooms.

You will see the price listed at 12,000.

But, hey, why let facts get in the way of you beligerently trying to make your point, huh?

Fact: There are rooms in the hotel where the STATED online rate is 12,000 (let's ignore the fact that online rates tend to be cheaper than 'walk-in' rates too. That's what the OP was quoted. It seems entirely appropriate for the receptionist to 'open the bidding' by trying to sell him the best room.

He said no. She then lowered the price, presumably to those for other lower category rooms.

Is that so wrong? How is that bad management? How is it underhand and deceiptful?

What happened to the OP is simple. She tried to sell the best room available to maximise revenue. He didnt want it. She offered lower priced solutions until he accepted.

Market forces in action.

[think_too_mut]

This is a screen shot from 5 minutes ago, Novotel Suvarnabhumi web site, like booking for tonight. For 1 person, still 2 single beds, full rate is 8,500B + 550B breakfast. Still not 12,000B:

Nice selective screenshot, think_too_mut. Now go back to the same website and click on ALL room types, and see prices for all room types, not just the cheap 'deluxe' twin bed category rooms.

You will see the price listed at 12,000.

But, hey, why let facts get in the way of you beligerently trying to make your point, huh?

Fact: There are rooms in the hotel where the STATED online rate is 12,000 (let's ignore the fact that online rates tend to be cheaper than 'walk-in' rates too. That's what the OP was quoted. It seems entirely appropriate for the receptionist to 'open the bidding' by trying to sell him the best room.

He said no. She then lowered the price, presumably to those for other lower category rooms.

Is that so wrong? How is that bad management? How is it underhand and deceiptful?

What happened to the OP is simple. She tried to sell the best room available to maximise revenue. He didnt want it. She offered lower priced solutions until he accepted.

Market forces in action.

This is market forces in action: Turned up at Pan Pacific in Singapore 11pm, did not have any booking (but they had my records from previous stays).

The clark took me aside and explained how they value my business and they would give me a free upgrade. So, I got a 120sqm room, 2 levels, my own sauna room, jacuzzi, office with higs speed Internet, aeron chair, free minibar, next door breakfast, special check in....

Rack rate for that suite was 680S$, I paid what a regular room would cost.

And they always get my business, in fact they became a corporate hotel in Singapore, with any gathering and all that being done there.

Had the clark tried on me like a second hand car dealer, they would not have seen me again. True, several good hotels around, no monopolly.

What we have here with Novotel is - bad press. This thread pops up in searches, who knows how many people can/have post the same and it oll boils down a world class company to a scruffy street vendor - like those around tourist places in Cairo, Turkey, Taj Mahal, Grand Palace in BKK.

While they are trying to rip us off we never have an inch of understanding for their "vision" of of market forces.

[samran]

While they are trying to rip us off we never have an inch of understanding for their "vision" of of market forces.

I think they understand it quite well, but that is a personal opinion.

Again though, you present selective arguments. Of course they are going to give you a good rate as a regular. They'll make, on average, more cash off you in the longer run.

But for job blogs of the street, passing through BKK never to be seen again, you get the going rate- whatever that is. Either way, it is good business sense. Treat different sections of your market differently, to maximise revenue.

I'm a regular traveller, Gold Class on Thai and am treated very well, but the type of preferential treatment only comes from people who they think are worth investing in.

[Mid]

on the question of markets ,

would not an open market consist of a choice of suppliers ,

rather than the choice of accepting or rejecting one suppliers offer ?

just a thought , monopolies and all ...............................

[dutchrdam]

The Sofitel Khon Kaen is for sure not a 5 star hotel. Maybe a nice 4 star.

If i book it cost about 2200 a night

If my wife book it is 1600 a night

Guess who do the bookings ??

[samran]

on the question of markets ,

would not an open market consist of a choice of suppliers ,

rather than the choice of accepting or rejecting one suppliers offer ?

just a thought , monopolies and all ...............................

of course mid, hence why what we are talking about is hardly 'extortion'

[Mid]

of course mid, hence why what we are talking about is hardly 'extortion'

agreed ,

how about usury?

[TheWalkingMan]

Our story so far...

OP misses flight connection and wishes to check into the Novotel Hotel located at Suvarnabhumi Airport.

Desk clerk at the hotel writes down the price on a piece of paper - 12,400 Baht for the night.

OP protests the price changes from 12,400 to 7,300 Baht. At this point the OP asked for a copy of the tarrif and the clerk replied "we don't have one."

A bit more protesting and the price went to 4,700 which was accepted by both the clerk and the OP.

Some of the posters agree with the hotel in trying to get as much money from the walk-ins as possible and others view this as over the top in pricing.

In checking the Novotel website, I do not recall anything quotes of 4,700 baht or 12,400 baht. In fact the lowest price I saw was 6,100 baht as a promotion price for a deluxe room and the highest was 12,000 baht for the suite (full rate). So like another poster queried, where did the clerk these prices? Pulled from the air? Just rolling the dice to see what happens?

I think the clerk was trying to extract too much baht from the OP. Some of the replies here have amazed me as this is not the local fish seller keeping his thumb on the scale to get a bit more cash or the Som Tam dealer charging a falang 50 instead of 35 baht. This is a proper business, which allegedly operates as a 5 star hotel, without a tariff list for walk-ins to have a look at.

TheWalkingMan

[fat boy slim]

These are the rates from Direct rooms web site, and are normally very cheap. If these are the rates when booking in advance, well they seem dear to me. By the way it is listed as a 4 star hotel.

http://directrooms.com/thailand/hotels/nov...angkok-6970.htm

[Gary A]

If I go somewhere and the price for whatever is too high, I leave and go elsewhere. How difficult is that?

[tonythailand]

The OP returneth.

Well, amazed at the good response, and I still stand firm on my criticism of the hotels' 'reaping' policy.

I am sure all the posters have submitted their points, and at one stage it was neck and neck as who had the best business accumen, that excepted,I would like to put to you,a bit of background.

The hotel was one of many, good,bad, ok, and, help..... In 8 weeks, I have stayed in Korat,3/4* Macau, 4*, Dubia 4* Bkk 3 & 4*,

Kantchaburi 2* Trat 2*, Koh, Kong 2/3*, ( new guest house on the sea-front), and in Snookyville, similar, 2/3* guest house. I am not a millionaire, but my carrer for the past 20 years was B.D.M. = business developement manager, for Whitbreads, and Punch taverns,in the UK. I don't need educating, however, as this is a public forum,I submitted my post.If my critics would like to try and upstage my submission, nice try!!

Further points about that original post, after missing the flight, we travelled downtown , Khao-san road etc, we stay round there regular,more than familiar with prices and ratings etc, and returned to the airport hotel, so as to guarantee our departure,to Dubai, believe it or not, we were early, first in check-in, and the 2nd, attempt to fly, was cancelled, however the nice people at Gulf Air put us on the Thai airways flight instead, we will fly with them again, very professional. So,that can answer the comments from the member,who suggested I had not flown before,or whether I was a grumpy/silly old man.

My forum subject was concerning MONOPOLY. Who is happy to stay in a confined area, no conveiniences, no movie channel, just basic stuff, the movies were 680 baht each, ++ = over 800 bt, dont tell me that

's not taking the piss, and to top the lot, we had to change rooms after midnight, as there was a device located above our room, which exploded at random intervals of about 30 mins, to scare away the birds, My information, submitted to this forum, was well justified, no matter how many 'diplomas' you may possess.

[think_too_mut]

If I go somewhere and the price for whatever is too high, I leave and go elsewhere. How difficult is that?

Come to Tokyo. A hotel tells you 400US$ a night,

What would you do, where would you go?

(There are no rip-offs in Japan and no business integrity violations).

Edited July 23, 2007 by think_too_mut

[Payboy]

If I go somewhere and the price for whatever is too high, I leave and go elsewhere. How difficult is that?

Come to Tokyo. A hotel tells you 400US$ a night,

What would you do, where would you go?

(There are no rip-offs in Japan and no business integrity violations).

i'd go here

[TheWalkingMan]

If I go somewhere and the price for whatever is too high, I leave and go elsewhere. How difficult is that?

Come to Tokyo. A hotel tells you 400US$ a night,

What would you do, where would you go?

(There are no rip-offs in Japan and no business integrity violations).

I think most of the hotels have a printed tariff list for customers to view before they decide.

Actually, if the OP were familiar with Tokyo, he would head for either a business hotel (approx USD 100) which are usually, small, cheapish and clean or throw caution to the wind and try to check-in a Love Hotel (approx USD 100). He might have been able to score a room with a jacuzzi. Heck, he could have even tried a capsule hotel for approx USD 30. It ain't the Grand Hyatt, but it's a good flop with hot and cold water. And from what I understand you can watch free porno movies on the small screen all in the privacy of your own capsule.

TheWalkingMan

[think_too_mut]

Actually, if the OP were familiar with Tokyo, he would head for either a business hotel (approx USD 100) which are usually, small, cheapish and clean

Those hotels are , when on a corporate rate, 7400Y = US60.

Internet shows the price that is double, no drama, no corp rate.