Wife Ordered Out Of Country Update! Not Good News

[Paulwilday]

My wife recently applied for an extension to her settlement visa using the flr(m) forms. We sent the forms within the 28 days of her visa expiring. On advice from friends and after phoning the home office for conformation we used the date she entered england, not the date the visa was issued as the date of renewal. Her visa was issued on 20/5/05 but she got here on 25/6/05, so we were told to renew before 25/6/07 which we did. We sent the forms on 28/5/07 and we got a letter confirming they had received them on the 29/06/07. We hoped for a speedy claim. Today however we have received a letter saying in view of the fact you entered the UK on 25/06/05 with entry clearance visa valid 20/05/05 to 20/05/07, The secretary of state is not satisfied you have limited leave to remain in the Uk. You made an application on 29/05/07. However, your leave to remain expired on 20/05/07. You therefore did not have leave to remain at the end of your application. Friends of ours when applying used the date of issue as the date of renewal, but were told they had applied early and should of used the date of entry. This meant they had to pay twice. I thought we had learned from their mistake!

Also my wifes passport was not returned, so how can she leave? And the letter was sent using my wifes maiden name, even though she came here on a spouses visa as we married a year before she came here, and its clearly stamped in the passport with change of name. All this suggests we are dealing with idiots that haven't got a clue what their doing.

Its safe to say my wife is in deep distress of this and we have a two year old daughter who's just started school to think about. Any help and advice would be much appreciated.

[Eff1n2ret]

Paul,

Unfortunately the refusal is technically correct - the application is out of time, and you therefore have no right of appeal. When the visa issued by an embassy abroad also became the permission to enter this country, which was previously granted by an Immigration Officer on arrival, they created this Catch 22 situation whereby anybody who didn't travel within a short period of the visa issue could not fulfil the qualifying period of residence to be granted ILR. Whether this was intended, nobody knows, but it has caught out many innocent victims including your wife. No use telling you now, but she should either have had the visa issue postdated, or made a further application for ILR (and paid the extortionate cost).

What alarms me is that they have not returned her passport. This suggests to me that they may have sent the file to a local enforcement office with a view to serving a notice on your wife as an overstayer and making her leave the country. The reason they do this is because of the number of people who have made unfounded applications over the years, been refused and had their passports returned, and just stayed on. When, if ever, the law catches up with them, they may have disposed of the passport because they know their own country won't accept them back without one, and IND is totally gutless about obliging foreign embassies to issue travel documents to such offenders. Thailand is totally relaxed about taking back their nationals on a document issued by an Immigration Officer here, and in my opinion IND's behaviour towards an easy target such as your wife is way over the top, and inexcusable.

I can only suggest that you write, ring and email them, and your local immigration office to find out what's going on and point out to them that your wife can't comply with any requirement to leave the country without her passport, also that she has a small child to care for. Contacting the local enforcement ought to forestall any "dawn raids". I don't know if the Catch 22 described in my first Para has been challenged in the courts, but it's about time it was. Any application for Judicial Review would suspend any requirement for your wife to leave the UK. I suggest you take legal advice and also consult your MP

[Eff1n2ret]

Sorry, the final phrase of the first para in my foregoing post should have read, "or made an application for Further Leave to Remain - before 20th May"

[LaoPo]

My wife recently applied for an extension to her settlement visa using the flr(m) forms. We sent the forms within the 28 days of her visa expiring. On advice from friends and after phoning the home office for conformation we used the date she entered england, not the date the visa was issued as the date of renewal. Her visa was issued on 20/5/05 but she got here on 25/6/05, so we were told to renew before 25/6/07 which we did. We sent the forms on 28/5/07 and we got a letter confirming they had received them on the 29/06/07. We hoped for a speedy claim. Today however we have received a letter saying in view of the fact you entered the UK on 25/06/05 with entry clearance visa valid 20/05/05 to 20/05/07, The secretary of state is not satisfied you have limited leave to remain in the Uk. You made an application on 29/05/07. However, your leave to remain expired on 20/05/07. You therefore did not have leave to remain at the end of your application. Friends of ours when applying used the date of issue as the date of renewal, but were told they had applied early and should of used the date of entry. This meant they had to pay twice. I thought we had learned from their mistake!

Also my wifes passport was not returned, so how can she leave? And the letter was sent using my wifes maiden name, even though she came here on a spouses visa as we married a year before she came here, and its clearly stamped in the passport with change of name. All this suggests we are dealing with idiots that haven't got a clue what their doing.

Its safe to say my wife is in deep distress of this and we have a two year old daughter who's just started school to think about. Any help and advice would be much appreciated.

I didn't read your message completely, also because I can't help, except advising you to send a PM/Personal Message immediately to:

The Scouser, a member/sponsor on this board.

Search for the scouser on the top-left and look on the profile.

They are specialized in the UK about visa matters.

Good luck!

LaoPo

[darkside]

legally i have no idea where you stand, but my take on it would that seeing as you have a 2 year old daughter who presumably has British nationality and you are legally married due to human rights laws concerning spliting up families they would have no right to deport your wife.

Obviously BM Scouser is who you need to speak to for some proper advice, but personaly i'd get your ass down the local citizens advice bureau first thing in the morning aswell.

[Totster]

the scouser

totster

[LaoPo]

the scouser

totster

LaoPo

[Mahout Angrit]

As already said, technically they are correct as you left Thailand more than 28days after the visa was issued so before the two years was up since the date of issue you should have applied for FLR to extend her stay until she was entitled to apply for ILR. However they have handled this rather heavily.

I would contact them and explain the misunderstanding and offer to apply for the FLR to tide you over the gap. It will cost you £395 and will give her another two years but if she is ready, having passed all the 'life in UK' requirements etc she can apply for ILR as soon as she is eligible.

It would be total madness if they sent your wife back as the first thing she would do in Thailand would be to apply for a settlement visa again, it would almost definitely be granted and she would be back in UK within a week. They must know that so I would be surprised if they would put her through that.

I hope for your sake and in the name of sanity they dont

Good luck.

Edited July 7, 2007 by Mahout Angrit

[the gent]

Simply apply out of time for an extension so as to allow you to submit an application within time for indefinite leave to remain.

Should the dullards actually try and remove your wife, something not beyond the realm of possibility but unlikely not least because they would generally have difficulty in even finding their own <deleted> never mind your address, simply instruct solicitors to formulate an application to the High Court for an injunction preventing removal citing such an act would breach your and your wife's human rights. The Home Office would not defend such an application in your circumstances but would pussy up and do precisely what I have outlined in my first paragraph.

Do not worry. The Home Office is largely managed by idiots but the extent of their stupidity is curtailed by the law, even if they are generally ignorant of it.

Recourse to the Scouse, whose pro bono ( free ) advice is as good as presumably as his paid consultation, generally pays dividends if anecdotal evidence is to be believed.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

the scouser

totster

Seconded. PM the Scouse asap.

[Penkoprod]

On advice from friends and after phoning the home office for conformation we used the date she entered england, not the date the visa was issued as the date of renewal.

Am i reading this right?

You phoned the Home Office for advice, and used the date they said to use, then, when they looked at the application they turned it down on the grounds that your application was out of time?

Seems to me its the classic case of one group of flannel-arsed desk jockies in a government dept giving out incorrect info, which, in turn, leads to another group of flannel-arsed desk jockies making life altering decisions for people, when they go by the strict letter of the law..........PRICKS !!!!!

When you phoned them, did you get the blurb about " this call may be monitored for training purposes" etc?

If you did then i would ask them to send you a transcript of the phonecall. They might even listen to it themselves, which might give you some leverage

HTH

Penkoprod

[Paulwilday]

Thats right i did phone the home office to check when to send it, and followed their advice. I didn't make a note of her name but it was an Indian women, so that might narrow it done. As always when dealing with them, you wonder if they know what their talking about.

Can't wait until tomorrow to start phoning people and getting it sorted, hard to believe none of them work weekends! Still hopeful that if we have made a mistake that they can except its a minor oversight which because of their advice we couldn't avoid. The joke is it took them 2 days to take the £395, but over 6 weeks to make their decision.

Why couldn't they just of said, you've made an error with the dates, overstaying a matter of days, so that application is void. Point out the mistake and make us pay again. If my wife had been in hiding here for years I'd except it. But you try and do it by the book and you get shafted. Seems alright to hold banners aloft calling for non believers to be beheaded, but live a quiet life raising a family they come down hard.

Thanks for everyones time and effort so far but please keep it coming, its a great help.

[Mahout Angrit]

Just re-read your OP and realised you were applying for FLR anyway so apologies for reference to ILR. However the gist is still the same.

Good luck tomorrow when you talk to them.

Edited July 8, 2007 by Mahout Angrit

[Paulwilday]

Yes we used the FLR forms as you now have to pass the citizenship test before you can send the SET M. I contacted them and said my wife only found out about the test at the last minute so rather than panic and fail the test could we use the FLR forms to extend her visa. They said yes but couldn't guarantee 2 years as it used to be, its now decided on a case by case basis. Knowing it wouldn't take my wife long to brush up on the test that didn't worry us. I explained in a letter with the application that my wife just needed a slight extension in which she would pass the test and then apply using the SET M and pay another £750. I explained we understood this was an expensive way of doing it, but we had no choice. All this was backed up on the phone with their advice.

[Penkoprod]

Thats right i did phone the home office to check when to send it, and followed their advice. I didn't make a note of her name but it was an Indian women, so that might narrow it done. As always when dealing with them, you wonder if they know what their talking about.

Can't wait until tomorrow to start phoning people and getting it sorted, hard to believe none of them work weekends! Still hopeful that if we have made a mistake that they can except its a minor oversight which because of their advice we couldn't avoid. The joke is it took them 2 days to take the £395, but over 6 weeks to make their decision.

Why couldn't they just of said, you've made an error with the dates, overstaying a matter of days, so that application is void. Point out the mistake and make us pay again. If my wife had been in hiding here for years I'd except it. But you try and do it by the book and you get shafted. Seems alright to hold banners aloft calling for non believers to be beheaded, but live a quiet life raising a family they come down hard.

Thanks for everyones time and effort so far but please keep it coming, its a great help.

The point being, though any error that was made, was made on advice you got ......... FROM THEM !!!

Dont go on the back foot and just roll over and play dead with them. Tell them it was on THEIR advice that you put the dates that you put.....let them take THEIR fair share of the blame (be firm, but polite, though)

Good luck

Penkoprod

[joskydive]

If they are that stupid to try and push this so that your wife and possibly child cannot stay you should allow the tabloids to get hold of the information.

This always upsets them. ie. Destruction of the family unit,

Mothers forced estrangement from her child

Wifes forced estrangement from husband

Was your child born in the UK? If so, that is more reason why she should be allowed to stay. If not, will your child have to leave too or remain in England with you? Either way, this behaviour from the Home Office is not acceptable and also why did they reply to your wife in her maiden name? Do they not believe that you are actually married?

I don't know the law that well and I'm sure the advise to speak to Scouse ASAP is the best thing to do. I'm just saying don't take this lying down. Best of Luck!

[Paulwilday]

God knows why they put her maiden name, as said before she came here on spouses visa, wa also sent the marriage certificate again. I think it might be because when you marry in Thailand they don't change the name on the glossy photo page, they make the changes on the next page. You would like to think that thats one of the first things they learn when looking at foreign passports.

My daughter was born in Chiang Mai but has a British Passport so is not subject to immigration rules. thank god!

[Mahout Angrit]

As the child is a UK citizen it cannot be deported and in the long run it's highly unlikely the mother will either but this has to come to a sensible conclusion with the home office and not go the expense and stress of a public debate or court hearings.

The OP will contact and talk to them and question why the passport has not been returned and explain that he was ill advised by their very own staff. Usually the calls are monitored (he will know this when he next calls) so he can request they check the advice given if the OP can give them dates and times of his enquiry.

A couple using different names is not a statement that they are not married, many married couples continue with their maiden names after marriage so I'm sure that is not an issue with the HO. It's more gross lack of professionalism by the staff as I'm sure the OP put his wifes married name on the application form and that is the name they should be replying to.

His wife is entitled to apply for FLR (even after April 07), the period given was never guaranteed to be 2 years but was the period that was usually granted if there were no overriding circumstances.(No ESOL qualifications are necessary to apply fo FLR)

Edited July 8, 2007 by Mahout Angrit

[gbswales]

This is an awful - but if the tabloid press are to be believed - all too common occurance in what is supposed to be a free and democratic country - I am both worried for my own situation - thai partner here on first Civil Partnersip visa - so two extensions to go, and also utterly ashamed of my government. We are being plummeted into an immigration free for all due to the enlargement of the EU meaning that unskilled, unpartnered, unsupported, non english speaking nationals from other impoversished EU states are free to come here with hardly any restrictions. The can get health care and in some circumstances benefits - they have no interests or ties in this country other than to escape the poorer countlries they are living in. Our governements response to this is to try and clear out, or prevent coming, anyone who is not from the precious EU. The newspapers whip up anger about this and asylum seekers which leads the government to shoot from the hip by attacking, not the people who the newspapers write about, but the soft targets - our partners - it is totally shameful. There are hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrants hiding in the UK - I say hiding, most are living quite openly and some even boast about it. Yet the person who tries to do everything correctly, keeps immigration informed about whereabouts who is made to jump through hoops and penalised if they make the slightest mistake.

As for the citizenship/language test that is the biggest insult of all - I have not met one english person who is able to take and pass it without considerable study - if it is to be fair then it should be about things that existing citizens would normally know and have an interest in - come on can anyone tell me how many Members there are in the Welsh assembly, or which was the highest group of immigrants in the 1950's or when women became entitled to vote what age did they have to be to vote - YES these are three of the obscure daft questions. Even people living in Wales who might be enthusiastic about the Welsh Assembly would have difficulty remembering how many AMs there are - I have read it many times and still dont know - because frankly I dont care about the number - it is what they do that matters. These questions (if needed at all) should be about everyday life in britain - what number do you dial in an emergency? what age must children start school? what is the age of consent? and more importantly for some communities there should be questions about freedom, rights of young people - eg to marry who they choose or to adopt the sexuality they choose without death threats. Oh and maybe "is is the done thing in the uk to plant bombs in the country that has welcomed you!!

The name change of the immigration department implies that it no longer has any role in being of assistance to people.

Why dont we complain or take action - simple because most of the people with an interest in this are too scared to be anything other than "ultra polite" to these departments who seem to have a ridiculously high level of power. Their behaviour and attitude is generally at best officious and at worse downright rude and insulting. Their aim seems to be to SCARE people into leaving or not coming to the UK at all. When was the last time you heard an immigration officer say something like " we seem to have a problem here, your application is few days late, let's see what we can help you do to sort it out"

They dont care - and we (the British Nation) should care and we should argue and argue until something is changed so that our partners are not put through this kind of nightmare - if they give a visa to come here to marry or get civil partnership and you are able to give simple proof that you are really together after 4 years then that should be it in my view - no more complex forms or extortionate fees - or is partnership to become the priviledge of the rich!

Sorry this doesnt answer the question - but there is lots of good advice here - you are also lucky in one sense because you have a child with UK citizenship - good luch

[roygsd]

Hello Paul,

Firstly dont panic, you are not the first person to be in this situation ad unlikly to be the last, my wife and I were in a slighly different position to you but the principals remain the same.

We travelled 2 months after the date her settlement visa was issued and therefore we had the two month problem, what should be relevant to your situation is that I was told that if we had travelled within a month

of it being issed then the Officers have discretionary powers to set aside that month and issue the Leave to remain visa without making a further applcation.

In our situation we were granted an extension for 2 months and had to apply again, which we did at the end of the first month, we waited 9 weeks for a decision and we recieved all the documents back with her newly stamped settlement/leave to remain in her visa.

No covering letter, just the papers back and her passport.

I know eactly how much this must be worrying your family but I have no doubt that if the information you have posted is correct then this error can be corrected without too much difficuty.

When I said earlier in my posting "do not panic" I meant exactly that, I hope that you have a copy of all the documentation including your application form you submitted? If not, write and ask for a copy of the application form ( I assume they have reurned all the other documents you submitted?if not ask for copies of them as well) and I would also ask for the return of your wifes passport and ask them give her an extension of her visa for 2 months or however long they require whils they conduct a review of their decision.

I am sure that they will be aware of their responsibilities regarding the European Human Rights Act which I provided them a copy of, ( I dont recommend you do that just yet, far better not to antagonise them unless you really need to) and the law is in your favour in my opinion.

Dont jump up and down, keep calm, point out that YOU HAVE MADE AN ERROR in not submitting the application in the required time, but at the same time point ou that it was an honest mistake on your part as you were only following the advice give to you by and Officer within Department in your call to he Office on ??/??/ 07.

If you do not have a record of the date of that call but you do remember what phone you called them on, ( home or your own mobile would be easier) do not delay, contact your line provider and ask them to supply you with a full record of every call between the date your application was rufused going back at least a month ( even further if you phoned them before then) before you submitted your application.

Do not be panicked into givng more information than is absolutly necessary, I have dealt with public authorities for any years and quite often people shoot themselves in the foot by supplying information which was necessary but has been expanded and takes an application where it often disadvantages the applicant.

What everyone must understand is that "each application must be juded on its own merits", what is applicable to your situation may or may not be appropriate for another applicant.

If the information you have provided is accurate I have little doubt that his matter can be resolved within a month or two, I am also of the opinion that you are unlikely to recieve any admission of an error being made by the Department, and please dont press them for one!

Focus upon getting that precious page in your wifes passport, and do whatever is necessary to ensure the Officers are in no doubt that you are only trying to resolve what is obviously a genuine error and it really is in no-ones interest in apportioning blame for that error.

I do not know if it is permitted for you to contact me off line, if you wish to do so I have no objection.

You are at the last hurdle, dont panic, stay focused because if you did but know it you are there already, its just a matter of crssing the T's and dotting the I's.

I hope the informaion I have provided is hepful to you, and I stand to be corrected by the experts such as "the Scouser" if their advice is at variance to my advice, the more information you have to consider the better.

All the best

roy

[the scouser]

Paul,

The anecdotal evidence I've heard from other immigration advisers that the Home Office is now refusing "out of time" applications without consideration of the overall circumstances has now been confirmed by your post. Techincally, as others have commented, your wife is an overstayer, but that does not mean that her application has no merit.

There definitely has to be a human rights issue here. Although article 8 of the Human Rights Act is a qualified right, i.e. the interests of the state override those of the individual, your wife has been allowed to exercise her right to a family life in the UK for the last two years, and the authorities can hardly now argue that she has not established such.

Certainly, you need to see an immigration solicitor first thing tomorrow morning with a view to initiating a judicial review application Also consider getting your MP involved. I am not a solicitor, so I can't do judicial review applications. A solicitor will, as likely as not, want some money up front, but, hopefully, the Home Ofice's case is so weak that you'll get costs awarded.

If immigration officers come knocking at the door with a view to serving removal notices upon your wife, you must contact your solicitor immediately. However, as has already been stated, once the judicial review process has been started, they can't require your wife to leave the U.K.

Any questions, feel free to give me a bell on the number that appears on 0151 284 7314.

Scouse.

[the gent]

An excellent post gbswales but your eloquence in the face of the bureaucratic incompetence that is the Home Office today has as much chance of success as had our hero in Terry Gilliam's ' Brazil '. The trouble is whereas the latter was a work of fiction the Home Office, and its bastard son, the Border and Immigration Agency, is an uncomfortable reality populated by staff measured only by their dull brained stupidity.

Anyone falling foul of their heavy handed antics should not hesitate to contact their MP at the earliest opportunity. I cannot emphasise this enough.

[britmaveric]

Wouldn't get the tabloids involved - might warp the story into something entirely different.

Listen to Scouser - he's an expert at this sort of thing.

[Paulwilday]

Thanks for the advice everyone.

Answering some question from above, we did get all the documents back apart from the application form, didn't think to keep a copy either. I will contact immigration solicitor in the morning but should i also contact the Local Enforcement Office that have got my wifes passport? or will the solicitor do that? If i do phone them, what angle do i come at them with? Do i argue our case to them, or will they not be interested? Same with Home Office, should i let solicitor phone them, or do it myself?

So much info to absorb, it's hard to formulate a plan, so thanks again for all the help.

[Eff1n2ret]

Thanks for the advice everyone.

Answering some question from above, we did get all the documents back apart from the application form, didn't think to keep a copy either. I will contact immigration solicitor in the morning but should i also contact the Local Enforcement Office that have got my wifes passport? or will the solicitor do that? If i do phone them, what angle do i come at them with? Do i argue our case to them, or will they not be interested? Same with Home Office, should i let solicitor phone them, or do it myself?

So much info to absorb, it's hard to formulate a plan, so thanks again for all the help.

Why not just ask the department that issued the refusal why they haven't sent the passport back, and see what they say. Don't worry too much about a visit by enforcement officers - if the refusal was only jacked up last week, nobody's going to come rushing round this week, things don't happen that fast. If your brief puts in a serious challenge it'll stop the clock.

[the scouser]

Paul,

It would appear to be a new policy of the Border and Immigration Agency to refuse out of time applications without consideration of all of the circumstances. Consequently, I believe that if either you or a solicitor simply writes to the BIA, they will not overturn the decision as to do so would be contrary to their policy. What you need to do is get this brought before a court. Your wife, as she is an overstayer, has no statutory right of appeal, but any decision made by a civil servant is subject to challenge in a court by means of judicial review. Your argument would be that in refusing your wife's application, they have failed to take in to account that you have a two-year-old child and that your wife otherwise meets the requirements of the relevant paragraph of the Immigration Rules.

Before a JR claim is lodged at the High Court, you will have to write to the BIA setting out your complaint and stating that if the matter is not resolved satisfactorily, you will proceed to JR. This is called a letter before claim. They then have two weeks in which to respond. If after that two weeks, the matter is not satisfactorily resolved, your solicitor can then lodge the JR claim at the High Court.

I'd go and see a solicitor tomorrow and ask them to conduct all dealings with the local immigration enforcement office and BIA. If you live in London, I know of a reputable immigration firm there who may be able to assist. If you want their details, then send me a PM.

Scouse.

[roygsd]

HI Paul,

Please think carefully before rushing off in any particuar direction, by all means get legal advice but before doing so why not try to resolve the matter amically if you can, I do and so can you I expect,

£100+ an hour is not unheard of, so all the responses you can get from the dept will possibly save you a great deal of money.

Roy

[chlear909]

My wife recently applied for an extension to her settlement visa using the flr(m) forms. We sent the forms within the 28 days of her visa expiring. On advice from friends and after phoning the home office for conformation we used the date she entered england, not the date the visa was issued as the date of renewal. Her visa was issued on 20/5/05 but she got here on 25/6/05, so we were told to renew before 25/6/07 which we did. We sent the forms on 28/5/07 and we got a letter confirming they had received them on the 29/06/07. We hoped for a speedy claim. Today however we have received a letter saying in view of the fact you entered the UK on 25/06/05 with entry clearance visa valid 20/05/05 to 20/05/07, The secretary of state is not satisfied you have limited leave to remain in the Uk. You made an application on 29/05/07. However, your leave to remain expired on 20/05/07. You therefore did not have leave to remain at the end of your application. Friends of ours when applying used the date of issue as the date of renewal, but were told they had applied early and should of used the date of entry. This meant they had to pay twice. I thought we had learned from their mistake!

Also my wifes passport was not returned, so how can she leave? And the letter was sent using my wifes maiden name, even though she came here on a spouses visa as we married a year before she came here, and its clearly stamped in the passport with change of name. All this suggests we are dealing with idiots that haven't got a clue what their doing.

Its safe to say my wife is in deep distress of this and we have a two year old daughter who's just started school to think about. Any help and advice would be much appreciated.

if yor wife is already in uk or usa why are you asking,?just stay there ,they cant really do much about it,it's true,relax

[the scouser]

if yor wife is already in uk or usa why are you asking,?just stay there ,they cant really do much about it,it's true,relax

Whatever you do, Paul, don't follow this pearl of wisdom. Pretending that the problem isn't there isn't going to achieve anything and, even if the Immigration Service never comes knocking, your wife will not be able to leave the UK without having to apply for another settlement visa to get back in.

You have to proactively address the issue.

Scouse.

[Paulwilday]

Thank you scouse, i owe you one. I hope i can buy you a drink some day.