Future Of Bhikkhuni Ordination

[sabaijai]

Bhikkhuni says she is glum on future of ordination

Dhammananda doubts whether Thailand is ready to go back to its roots

Published on July 22, 2007

The Dalai Lama on Friday expressed support for the introduction of Bhikkhunis (female monks) in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition, but this is unlikely to change the stance of the Thai clergy, according to Thailand's first fully ordained female monk.

"I do not think there will be any change in the Thai Sangha's position regarding the Bhikkhuni's ordination in Thailand," Bhikkhuni Dhammananda said on Friday.

The Bhikkhuni lineage has been broken for more than 1,000 years in countries following Theravada Buddhism, such as Thailand and other Southeast Asian nations, and those following Mulasarvas-tivada Buddhism, like Tibet.

Since the presence of both Bhikkhus (Buddhist monks) and Bhikkhunis is required at the ceremony to fully ordain a Bhikkhuni, conservative Sangha in these countries say that women's ordination is impossible.

The Thai Sangha does not recognise Dhammananda and seven other Bhikkhunis who were fully ordained in Sri Lanka as valid Theravada Bhikkhunis.

However, the Dalai Lama said the ordination of female Buddhist monks was possible and vowed to fully support the introduction of full ordination for female Buddhists.

"I express my full support for the establishment of the Bhikshuni Sangha in the Tibetan tradition," the Dalai Lama said on the final day of the "International Congress on Buddhist Womens' Role in the Sangha: Bhikshuni Vinaya and Ordination Lineages" at the University of Hamburg.

While monks and female monks are known as Bhikkhus and Bhikkhunis in Theravada Buddhism, they are called Bhikshu and Bhikshuni in other lineages.

The three-day conference, which received financial support of 50,000 Swiss francs (Bt1.4 million) from the Dalai Lama himself, was the first in decades to directly address the reestablishment of fully ordained female Buddhist monks in Tibet, said organiser Bhikshuni Jampa Tsedroen.

The conference brought together nearly 300 Buddhist scholars and senior monks from Buddhist centres around the world to establish an international consensus on whether the ordination of women was valid and, if so, how and when full ordination for women should take place, she said.

Despite unanimous support from all international monasteries, the details of the rituals still need to be worked out in such a way that they will be accepted by the Tibetan Sangha, said the Dalai Lama.

The re-establishment of full Bhikkhuni ordination is not unprecedented. In 1998 Sri Lanka reintroduced full ordination for female Buddhist monks, with the endorsement of all senior Sri Lankan Bhikkhus.

The Dalai Lama also said he recognised Bhikshunis who practise in the Tibetan tradition but receive full ordination from another lineage, and urged them to practise three primary monastic activities - Posadha, Vassa and Pavarana - as preparation for the establishment of a Bhikkhuni Sangha in the near future.

The situation of Bhikkhunis in Thailand also prompted attention from several international monasteries at the congress.

"I travelled to Thailand last year and was disheartened to see that there are no Bhikkhunis in Thailand," said Bhikshuni Dr Mzongsong Sunim, president of the National Bhikshuni Assembly for the Korean Buddhist Jogye Order. "It is very important for Thailand to introduce the ordination. Every morning I pray for this to happen."

Bhikkhu Sujato, founder of Australian Santi Forest Monastry near Sydney, said he supported full ordination for Thai female monks. "If it is their wish, whether the monks agree or not, they should have that right," he said.

"Also, the Thai Sangha should realise that Thai Theravada Buddhism does not exist by itself, but is a part of a greater Buddhism community."

Bhikkhuni Dhammananda, who runs a monastery in Nakhon Pathom, said she would use this international support to continue her work to introduce Bhikkhunis in Thailand.

"I have been witnessing more positive trends in Thai society, as there are a increasing numbers of Bhikkhunis as well as more women who want to be ordained," she said.

"Whether the Thai Sangha accepts it or not, things are opening up."

Sopaporn Kurz

The Nation

HAMBURG, GERMANY

[seonai]

Very interesting debate this one. I don't think the Thai Sankha will 'give in' and let women ordain, they are mostly against it. It suits them to have a male dominated power. There are a few very well educated senior monks in Wat Mahatat, Bkk, who support women's full ordination but, I am pessimistic that it will never happen in Thailand. I taught monks for years and most of them laughed when I mentioned this topic. They believe woman are not 'developed' enough !!!!!

[sleepyjohn]

One of religion's key roles, perhaps it's lead role, has of course been the subjugation of women. It comes either more or less important on the scale than the control of people in general. As someone with great respect for the true Buddhist message, I object.

Edited July 23, 2007 by sleepyjohn

[chownah]

Well, I agreee that part of the reason women are not allowed ordination in Thailand is from sexism...but...there is another reason that seems to be forgotten here. The rules for ordinating women supposedly were formulated by the Buddha (I think) and include a requirement that a certain number of female monks perform the ceremony (or part of the ceremony...I don't know the particulars). Since there are evidentally no living female monks in existence who have been properly ordained, then there are none to perform the ceremony....without the ceremony you don't have a properly ordained female monk as defined by the Buddha. This is why alot of devout Theravada Buddhists don't accept the new female monks...even many people who are not sexist don't accept the female monks...its a matter of wanting to abide strictly by the Buddha's teachings as they understand them.

I don't care about who becomes a monk since my view is that becoming a monk is a worldy thing and not essential in any way to follow the Buddha's teachings to the fullest.....but I could be wrong on this and would gladly read Theravada Scripture which contradicts me if it is pointed out to me.

Chownah

[seonai]

I think the nuns in Sri Lanka have been ordained 'properly' and they are the ones who ordained Bhikkhuni Dhammananda - if I remember rightly she formerly used to be a lecturer at Thamasat Uni in Bkk. A very cool woman indeed, her mother was a white robed nun.

The situation in Thailand is deeply engrained unfortunately and in many temples white robed (5-10 precept) nuns are treated disgustingly.

[seonai]

Chownah I think you are mainly correct on the being a monk doesn't matter too much in the great scheme of things but I do object to the fact that women in Buddhism in Thailiand aren't taked seriously and haven't got the choice. Ordination means that you have more time to devote to Buddhist activities and takes away some of the wordly pressures that hinder practise. On the other hand I beleive there should be an age limit - no full ordination until 21 at least. In this way the prospective monk/nun has worldly experience too.

[sutnyod]

Well, I agreee that part of the reason women are not allowed ordination in Thailand is from sexism...but...there is another reason that seems to be forgotten here. The rules for ordinating women supposedly were formulated by the Buddha (I think) and include a requirement that a certain number of female monks perform the ceremony (or part of the ceremony...I don't know the particulars).

This is an argument often used by the Thai clergy. It can easily be refuted. Who ordained the first nun then? Mahapachapati? IMHO this discussion on formalities directs the attention away from the fact that there are other qualities a person must possess before being ordained and that women can very well have these qualities.

I often discuss this topic (have ordained nuns for friends). The majority of friends from a Theravada environment think the real reason for resistance to female ordination here is finances - monks are afraid lay followers (especially female) will flock to get advice from Bikkhunis than from senior monks.

[sutnyod]

The situation in Thailand is deeply engrained unfortunately and in many temples white robed (5-10 precept) nuns are treated disgustingly.

Not only in the temples. Consider this: male monks get a discount on public transportation, white robed nuns not. So are they considered lay-persons then? No, because as white robed nuns they cannot vote. WHAT are they then?

Question: why do you write 5-10 precepts? White robed nuns have 8 precepts AFAIK. The five precept nuns wear brown and are Ubashikas.

[chownah]

Well, I agreee that part of the reason women are not allowed ordination in Thailand is from sexism...but...there is another reason that seems to be forgotten here. The rules for ordinating women supposedly were formulated by the Buddha (I think) and include a requirement that a certain number of female monks perform the ceremony (or part of the ceremony...I don't know the particulars).

This is an argument often used by the Thai clergy. It can easily be refuted. Who ordained the first nun then? Mahapachapati? IMHO this discussion on formalities directs the attention away from the fact that there are other qualities a person must possess before being ordained and that women can very well have these qualities.

I often discuss this topic (have ordained nuns for friends). The majority of friends from a Theravada environment think the real reason for resistance to female ordination here is finances - monks are afraid lay followers (especially female) will flock to get advice from Bikkhunis than from senior monks.

Sutnyod,

I was referring to ordination of female monks, not the ordination of nuns. I don't know who ordained the first nun and I don't know what the requirements are for ordaining them..... anyway...... the ordaining of nuns is not a problem in Thailand, it happens all the time I think. The problem is ordaining female monks and that is the issue I was trying to address (and is topic of this thread I think). As to who ordained the first female monk, I'm pretty sure it was the Buddha himself.

Chownah

[sutnyod]

Sutnyod,

I was referring to ordination of female monks, not the ordination of nuns. I don't know who ordained the first nun and I don't know what the requirements are for ordaining them..... anyway...... the ordaining of nuns is not a problem in Thailand, it happens all the time I think. The problem is ordaining female monks and that is the issue I was trying to address (and is topic of this thread I think). As to who ordained the first female monk, I'm pretty sure it was the Buddha himself.

Chownah

What is a female monk? 8-O I am referring to Bikkunis (Bikkshunis) of 2++ precepts Yes, it was Buddha himself who ordained Mahapajapati. Without the help of other Bikkshunis...

[chownah]

Sutnyod,

I was referring to ordination of female monks, not the ordination of nuns. I don't know who ordained the first nun and I don't know what the requirements are for ordaining them..... anyway...... the ordaining of nuns is not a problem in Thailand, it happens all the time I think. The problem is ordaining female monks and that is the issue I was trying to address (and is topic of this thread I think). As to who ordained the first female monk, I'm pretty sure it was the Buddha himself.

Chownah

What is a female monk? 8-O I am referring to Bikkunis (Bikkshunis) of 2++ precepts Yes, it was Buddha himself who ordained Mahapajapati. Without the help of other Bikkshunis...

A Bhikkuni is a female monk...a Bhikku is a male monk...a nun is not a monk at all but something different. The issue at hand (I think) is the ordination of female monks and not the ordination of nuns....the ordination of nuns is well accepted in Thailand (I think...and assuming that the term "ordination" is the correct one for initiation into nun-hood) and not really an issue while the ordination of Bhikkunis (female monks) is not allowed and the ordination of Theravada Bhikkunis from other countries (e.g. Sri Lanka) is not recognized.

Chownah

[khaojao]

The situation in Thailand is deeply engrained unfortunately and in many temples white robed (5-10 precept) nuns are treated disgustingly.

Not only in the temples. Consider this: male monks get a discount on public transportation, white robed nuns not. So are they considered lay-persons then? No, because as white robed nuns they cannot vote. WHAT are they then?

Question: why do you write 5-10 precepts? White robed nuns have 8 precepts AFAIK. The five precept nuns wear brown and are Ubashikas.

lay buddhists hold 5 precepts / 8 precepts

8 preceptors are also called ubasikas and generally wear white although it's not necessary

mae chees hold 8 or 10 precepts and have shaved heads, in white robes.

bhikkhunis (nuns) hold 311 precepts, shave their heads, don saffron robes and are no longer in existence

there are, however, some mae chees who have obtained ordination in countries where it's accepted (like sri lanka) to be called bhikkhunis but they only hold 10 precepts.

apparently, mae chees are considered "lower" in status than lay people in the thai community. however, ordination means renunciation, one does not ordain for discounts, status or rights. hence i have never understood all the fighting about rights coming from monks, nuns & mae chees.

personally, ordination of the heart is more meritorious than ordination of the skin.

Edited July 25, 2007 by khaojao

[chownah]

there are, however, some mae chees who have obtained ordination in countries where it's accepted (like sri lanka) to be called bhikkhunis but they only hold 10 precepts.

I've never heard of this. Both Sri Lanka and Thailand are Theravada Buddhist and they both use the same scriptures (there are some minor differences in the scripture collections between them) and both as far as I know are very specific as to what is a Bhikku and Bhikkuni in that these terms are defined clearly in the scriptures. Doe anyone have a link to a web site that might indicate or even imply that a Mae Chee can acceptably be called a Bhikkuni in Sri Lanka?

Chownah

[chownah]

there are, however, some mae chees who have obtained ordination in countries where it's accepted (like sri lanka) to be called bhikkhunis but they only hold 10 precepts.

I've never heard of this. Both Sri Lanka and Thailand are Theravada Buddhist and they both use the same scriptures (there are some minor differences in the scripture collections between them) and both as far as I know are very specific as to what is a Bhikku and Bhikkuni in that these terms are defined clearly in the scriptures. Doe anyone have a link to a web site that might indicate or even imply that a Mae Chee can acceptably be called a Bhikkuni in Sri Lanka?

Chownah

I went out looking for a reference about calling Mae Chees Bhikkhuni and as luck would have it found one almost immediately. In another forum in an already existing discussion a Theravada Monk posted, "Well, the word "bhikkhuni" can have many meanings, which are even recognized in the Pali Vinaya texts, such as "she is a bhikkhuni because she has put on the robe" and so on. It refers to someone who lives a religious life relying on alms." So this means that there is some precedent for this. I have directly asked the question about this being acceptable in Sri Lanka and will reply here when I get some feedback.

I would like to say, though, that I think that the original post is raising the issue of Bhikkuni ordination with Bhikkuni meaning female monk and not mae chee or nun.

Chownah

Edited July 25, 2007 by chownah

[jumnien]

Does anyone know of any males that have been allowed to ordain as bhikkhunis? This seems to provide the benefit of humility in far greater terms than females ordaining as bhikkhus which could have ego attachment involved at a fundamental level.

All this does exhibit Ajahn Jumnien's observation that in general women attain greater levels of enlightenment than men. Sorry to see some women falling into the same trap!

Edited July 25, 2007 by mdeland

[seonai]

That which we call a rose...

[khaojao]

there are, however, some mae chees who have obtained ordination in countries where it's accepted (like sri lanka) to be called bhikkhunis but they only hold 10 precepts.

I've never heard of this. Both Sri Lanka and Thailand are Theravada Buddhist and they both use the same scriptures (there are some minor differences in the scripture collections between them) and both as far as I know are very specific as to what is a Bhikku and Bhikkuni in that these terms are defined clearly in the scriptures. Doe anyone have a link to a web site that might indicate or even imply that a Mae Chee can acceptably be called a Bhikkuni in Sri Lanka?

Chownah

I went out looking for a reference about calling Mae Chees Bhikkhuni and as luck would have it found one almost immediately. In another forum in an already existing discussion a Theravada Monk posted, "Well, the word "bhikkhuni" can have many meanings, which are even recognized in the Pali Vinaya texts, such as "she is a bhikkhuni because she has put on the robe" and so on. It refers to someone who lives a religious life relying on alms." So this means that there is some precedent for this. I have directly asked the question about this being acceptable in Sri Lanka and will reply here when I get some feedback.

I would like to say, though, that I think that the original post is raising the issue of Bhikkuni ordination with Bhikkuni meaning female monk and not mae chee or nun.

Chownah

hi chownah...what i meant when i said that some mae chees have gone to sri lanka to become bhikkhunis, i meant they went there to obtain the ordination procedure and came back to thailand (as there are bhikkhunis in sir lanka, they make up the require "quota" for the ordination ceremony). these bhikkhunis, however, are not recognised by the thai clergy

ordination to be a mae chee, on the other hand, is quite a simple no-frills procedure which do not require the presence of bhikkhunis and is very common-spread in thailand.

ps. in my postings :-

bhikkhus : saffron clad monks

bhikkhunis : saffron clad female counterparts of bhikkhus

mae chees : white robe nuns

[bankei]

This is my understanding of the issue.

Theravada Vinaya requires Bhikkhuni to be ordained by existing Bhikkhuni, including a Preceptor Bhikkhuni of 12 years standing. They are then ordained again by Bhikkhus.

The problem is that there is no existing Bhikkhuni of the Theravada Linegage.

The first nuns where ordained by the Buddha, as where the first monks. Since then the Buddha has laid down rules for ordinations. The first monk who had sex got away with it because there was no rule against it – we cannot use this as a precendent because rules developed later.

There are existing Theravada ‘Bhikkhuni’ but these people are not fully accepted because they are not properly ordained according to Theravada standards.

Firstly, the lineage is from a Chinese tradition. The Vinaya used is that of the Dharmaguptaka lineage. This is different to the Theravada, there are more rules, and even slight differences on the common rules.

Secondly, this lineage is considered, by some, to be broken. There was a period (maybe more than one) in Chinese History when the link from preceptor to student was broken. Even initially, there were many procedures that were missed, or ignored by the early Chinese Bhikkhuni.

Thirdly, there is a difference in language of the Vinaya used. During the ordination procedure, what language do these Dharmaguptaka Theravada Bhikkhuni use? If Pali, are they chanting the Pali rules or the Dharmaguptaka rules?

Forthly, those Theravada Bhikkhuni’s, or at least some of them, have not met the requirements of either Vinaya when ordaining further Bhikkhuni. Eg. There is a requirement for the senior preceptor to have 12 years as a full Bhikkhuni before ordaining others. There was at least one ordination in Sri Lanka where this did not happen. Any ordaination of a monk under these circumstances would be invalid.

Theravadins seem to be much more concerned with maintaining strict adherence to the Vinaya when ordaining. Eg. King Mongkut (before he was King) reordained about 20 times because each time he was not convinced he the prceedure was done entirely correctly.

My view is that it is not really possible to revive the Theravada Bhikkhuni lineage technically, but that some of these minor procedures should be overlooked. However, those ordaining should do it correctly in line with the Vinaya as far as possible.

I should also point out that Vinaya lineage and philosophical belief do not mecesarily need to match. Nuns could ordain under the Dharmaguptaka lineage, but accept Theravada teachings.

[sabaijai]

In most English texts, 'monk' is used exclusively for men. Some people translate bhikkhuni as 'female monk', others as 'nun'. In popular English usage it's translated as 'nun'. The differentiation between a mae chee and a bhikkhuni is normally, in English, '8-precept nun' and 'fully ordained nun'.

However some people choose to use 'monk' for both men and women, adding 'male' or 'female' to distinguish gender, but it's not the norm.

Sample Web definitions of 'monk':

*The term monk comes from the Greek monachos (μοναχός), commonly translated as solitary, one living alone. In the Greek language, the term can apply to men or women, but in English, it usually applies only to men, while nun is more commonly used to refer to female monastics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monk

*a male religious living in a cloister and devoting himself to contemplation and prayer and work

wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

*A monk is a man who is a vowed member of a monastic community of men. As well as professing the three vows of poverty, chastity and obedience, monks often also take a fourth vow of stability, that is, to remain for life in one monastery.

www.vocations.ca/What_is_a_vocation/common_terms.php

[chownah]

In most English texts, 'monk' is used exclusively for men. Some people translate bhikkhuni as 'female monk', others as 'nun'. In popular English usage it's translated as 'nun'. The differentiation between a mae chee and a bhikkhuni is normally, in English, '8-precept nun' and 'fully ordained nun'.

However some people choose to use 'monk' for both men and women, adding 'male' or 'female' to distinguish gender, but it's not the norm.

Sample Web definitions of 'monk':

*The term monk comes from the Greek monachos (μοναχός), commonly translated as solitary, one living alone. In the Greek language, the term can apply to men or women, but in English, it usually applies only to men, while nun is more commonly used to refer to female monastics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monk

*a male religious living in a cloister and devoting himself to contemplation and prayer and work

wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

*A monk is a man who is a vowed member of a monastic community of men. As well as professing the three vows of poverty, chastity and obedience, monks often also take a fourth vow of stability, that is, to remain for life in one monastery.

www.vocations.ca/What_is_a_vocation/common_terms.php

I agree with this and would point out that my experience is that most Western Buddhists that post on Buddhist internet forums do not use the term "nun" when speaking about Bhikkuni possibly because in English the term "nun" has a connotation of being a lower rank than monk...don't know why for sure.

Chownah

Edited July 27, 2007 by chownah

[sutnyod]

Coming back to the topic, here my scenario:

The Lao Sangha is presently increasing contacts with Vietnam on Buddhism. This, and the fact that equal rights of women and men are taken quite seriously by the government, could contribute to increased acceptance of Mae Khaos (Mae Sis) and diminishing resistance against Bhikkuni ordination there. If Laos can do it, Thailand might follow suit not to lose face...

[gregybn]

An interesting thread... with some great info, albeit with a few misconceptions.

I currently teach one of the THREE ordained female bhikkunis in Thailand - to the best of my knowledge there were four, but I understand one has just recently de-robed.

My student's name is Ven. Silananda - although I also call her Phra Nanda.

She enrolled in BA studies in the International Buddhist College in Khlong Ngae, Songkhla.

[CMexpat]

There was an article on this subject in today's Bangkok Post. Next to the "post bag".

[Pundi64]

Bhikkhuni says she is glum on future of ordination

Dhammananda doubts whether Thailand is ready to go back to its roots

Published on July 22, 2007

The Dalai Lama on Friday expressed support for the introduction of Bhikkhunis (female monks) in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition, but this is unlikely to change the stance of the Thai clergy, according to Thailand's first fully ordained female monk.

"I do not think there will be any change in the Thai Sangha's position regarding the Bhikkhuni's ordination in Thailand," Bhikkhuni Dhammananda said on Friday.

The Bhikkhuni lineage has been broken for more than 1,000 years in countries following Theravada Buddhism, such as Thailand and other Southeast Asian nations, and those following Mulasarvas-tivada Buddhism, like Tibet.

Since the presence of both Bhikkhus (Buddhist monks) and Bhikkhunis is required at the ceremony to fully ordain a Bhikkhuni, conservative Sangha in these countries say that women's ordination is impossible.

The Thai Sangha does not recognise Dhammananda and seven other Bhikkhunis who were fully ordained in Sri Lanka as valid Theravada Bhikkhunis.

However, the Dalai Lama said the ordination of female Buddhist monks was possible and vowed to fully support the introduction of full ordination for female Buddhists.

"I express my full support for the establishment of the Bhikshuni Sangha in the Tibetan tradition," the Dalai Lama said on the final day of the "International Congress on Buddhist Womens' Role in the Sangha: Bhikshuni Vinaya and Ordination Lineages" at the University of Hamburg.

While monks and female monks are known as Bhikkhus and Bhikkhunis in Theravada Buddhism, they are called Bhikshu and Bhikshuni in other lineages.

The three-day conference, which received financial support of 50,000 Swiss francs (Bt1.4 million) from the Dalai Lama himself, was the first in decades to directly address the reestablishment of fully ordained female Buddhist monks in Tibet, said organiser Bhikshuni Jampa Tsedroen.

The conference brought together nearly 300 Buddhist scholars and senior monks from Buddhist centres around the world to establish an international consensus on whether the ordination of women was valid and, if so, how and when full ordination for women should take place, she said.

Despite unanimous support from all international monasteries, the details of the rituals still need to be worked out in such a way that they will be accepted by the Tibetan Sangha, said the Dalai Lama.

The re-establishment of full Bhikkhuni ordination is not unprecedented. In 1998 Sri Lanka reintroduced full ordination for female Buddhist monks, with the endorsement of all senior Sri Lankan Bhikkhus.

The Dalai Lama also said he recognised Bhikshunis who practise in the Tibetan tradition but receive full ordination from another lineage, and urged them to practise three primary monastic activities - Posadha, Vassa and Pavarana - as preparation for the establishment of a Bhikkhuni Sangha in the near future.

The situation of Bhikkhunis in Thailand also prompted attention from several international monasteries at the congress.

"I travelled to Thailand last year and was disheartened to see that there are no Bhikkhunis in Thailand," said Bhikshuni Dr Mzongsong Sunim, president of the National Bhikshuni Assembly for the Korean Buddhist Jogye Order. "It is very important for Thailand to introduce the ordination. Every morning I pray for this to happen."

Bhikkhu Sujato, founder of Australian Santi Forest Monastry near Sydney, said he supported full ordination for Thai female monks. "If it is their wish, whether the monks agree or not, they should have that right," he said.

"Also, the Thai Sangha should realise that Thai Theravada Buddhism does not exist by itself, but is a part of a greater Buddhism community."

Bhikkhuni Dhammananda, who runs a monastery in Nakhon Pathom, said she would use this international support to continue her work to introduce Bhikkhunis in Thailand.

"I have been witnessing more positive trends in Thai society, as there are a increasing numbers of Bhikkhunis as well as more women who want to be ordained," she said.

"Whether the Thai Sangha accepts it or not, things are opening up."

Sopaporn Kurz

The Nation

HAMBURG, GERMANY

I going to have to join in here, only to set the forum right on Bhikkhinis, (women Monks in Thailand). My wifes sister was the 1st ordained female Monk here in Thailand, since she was ordained, I think there is a total of about 4 all together now in Thailand's Temples.

[raindrops]

Why does one has to put too much emphasis into 'titles'? To reach your ultimate goal as a Buddhist, in theory, you can do it as a normal human being. Personally, I always find the debate as such quite futile.

[Austhaied]

Why does one has to put too much emphasis into 'titles'? To reach your ultimate goal as a Buddhist, in theory, you can do it as a normal human being. Personally, I always find the debate as such quite futile.

You've hit the nail right on the head. Glad you are on the right path.

[raindrops]

cheers Austhaied.....

I still have a long long long long long long long long way to go...

[jumnien]

When the argument is whether women can be a 'grand poobah" or just a "poobah", I'm not sure the organization is worth joining.

[raindrops]

depends sunrise....the teaching of Buddha still stands, for me.

[Austhaied]

cheers Austhaied.....

I still have a long long long long long long long long way to go...

Don't we all (well not all).. The journey is what it's all about.