Where Do I Stand Legally?

[jingjingna]

I have been with the same employer for approx three years (three years this September). During this period I have provided private tutoring both paid and unpaid. There has NEVER been anything in the contract/s to state that such an activity is prohibited.

So, for approx three years everything was fine, my private tutoring was known about from day one, I never advertised my services and would only offer assistance ONLY if I were approached by concerned parents, requesting additonal help for their children.

Last week myself and my foreign colleagues were informed that we can no longer provide extra tuition as it's against the policy of the school. I was informed that if I didn't stop my tutoring in private then my current contract would not be renewed.

As stated previously, there NEVER has been anything in any contracts signed, past or present to highlight this somewhat important fact. Also, I never received a copy of the latest contract which I signed sometime in June/July this year. Apparently the latest contract states that two months notice is required to quit, previously it was one.

As this 'new' policy was just recently relayed, I have gone past the 'two month notice' period, no fault on my part because if this 'new' policy was not announced, I would have renewed the contract.

From a legal aspect, I would be very interested to know where I stand legally.

In any case, I haved decided to move on and start my own business but I would like to try and help any current or future foreign employees who decide to work at this institution.

What do you guys think? Can I sue them?

[donna]

i could be way off the mark here, and think that other members more knowledgable than i will give a more accurate answer, but if you resign, you have no grounds for sueing them, i would say. if they terminated you, then you may have grounds, but if you resign of your own accord i dont think you have a case.

if you have signed the contract with the two month notification period i would assume that you are required to give two months notice, but the thai labour law may state otherwise.

[jingjingna]

Thanks Donna,

I am in two minds whether or not to resign...I would prefer them to kick me out but I am sure the person running this dept thinks I will just up and leave...also I beleive that perhaps this person understands that once a contract is up, it's up!

Just a little bit of additional info, after completing my first year at the school, I requested in writing to the 'Director' at the time for a five year contract. My dept head never forwarded this letter to him. The head of my dept told me that I could have a five year contract...I never did see it. I have contacted the previous Director who has basically told me that he has no idea what I am talking about!

[donna]

i dont think that it makes much difference if the term of your contract was 1 or 5 years. but again, i will stand corrected if i am wrong.

[TerryLH]

It might be in the school rules. My school has a similiar rule. It says you can't do outside teaching to kids you teach in school.

I believe it's intended to keep teachers from giving higher grades for extra cash/classes, or of even being in the position that someone might think they are doing that.

I think Donna is right. If you quit you have no severance pay due you. If they don't renew your contract you might have 3-6 months salary due you as severance pay.

[donna]

look in another post in this sub forum and you will see the payouts owing for different lengths of service. the topic name is something like 'payout on firing a farang' or something like that. you wont have to look far as its up the top due to me just posting on it this evening.

[jingjingna]

I appreciate what you're saying but I feel seriously shafted and I know I am not the only one. I was fooled into thinking that I would be there for atleast five years. For me, it makes no difference as their own ignorance has made me decide to start up my own business but the unprofessional handling of the 'issue' is what bothers me the most.

By the way, Congrats on your new job, hope it all works out for you Donna!

[donna]

i would wait and see what some of the more experienced guys on this site think. im only going by my own experience and most of the advice i got was from blokes on here.

[jingjingna]

Terry,

Am I right in assuming that you have a valid school handbook and contract telling you what you can and cannot do? If that is the case, then fine. I have never had anything stating this....and this is my point!

I am aware that Thai teachers in 'certain' schools are prohibited from doing so for obvious reasons...but I teach Kindergarten and I love what I do...things that just cannot take place in a 'Thai School' environment is what I am all about.

Your feedback is still appreciated though!

[jingjingna]

Donna,

I have read that topic and that's probably the reason why I posted my own, thanks to you!

[solo siam]

Is this in Thailand?

If so and assuming you have a work permit then they are the ones in the right, your work permit permits you ONLY to work for them, not freelance or do any other paid or unpaid work for other private individuals.

Thats the law, they are just enforcing it - If you have been doing private work then thats actually been illegall.

[jingjingna]

Ben,

Technically, you are correct BUT so many 'other' activities are 'illegal' in Thailand as well. Right?

[solo siam]

The guy asked where he stood legally, and mentioned suing someone.

[jingjingna]

Whose the 'Guy'...I would not want my kids at Kindy with a Guy...End Of Story.. Sounds to me like you must be one lonely guy, go out and get a 'life'. It is quite obvious that this particular thread is not your cup of tea ..move on Mr Digital Man.

[Irene]

Without having the knowledge of the niceties of your profession but based on my general understanding of the Thai labour law, other posts are correct in advising you not to resign yet. You would make life more miserable for your employer by not resigning.

Second, if your contention of unfair conducts of the employer can be proven as to timing, you have a good case at the Labour Court to maintain that you are not a contract employee. In general, Labour Court tends to favour employees.

Third, if it is unwritten on the question of private tuition, private tuition in your spare time is not in conflict with your employer's interest unless the employer also provides this after-hour service.

The above is only comments made by an outsider reacted from your description of the event. However, you need to look into whether it is wise to have a confrontation or any unpleasantness. Before you decide on your direction, talking to a lawyer should help or quietly approach the Labour Department or Labour Court on your status to find out the best course of action. Unfortunately, I do not know of the contact information at these two places but I am aware of them providing the help to employees.

[jingjingna]

Big Thanks Irene!

[jingjingna]

Irene,

This seems to be of a bit of a grey area..the exta tuition I provide is on Saturday mornings..mainly teaching kids from Kindy..the school does provide Saturday morning tuition..just not in 'English'..

I also coach a small number of kids from Primary levels from the same school too..Again, the parents approached me.

The parents want me because they have seen my techniques and approah had they known their children will develop in more ways than one.

Unfortunately. I have no power to chnage thiings in the current climate..in the future who knows?

Cheerws

[bendix]

In this instance, I think you're on dodgy grounds legally.

I certainly wouldnt resign. If you did, your rights disappear pretty quickly because you are acting voluntarily.

The school is well within its rights to change its policies on outside work at its own discretion. Just because they implicitly condoned it before, doesn't mean they can't change their policy for whatever reasons they feel like. Most organisations will have a similar policy.

That it's not written into your contract either is irrelevant. They could easily argue that having undertaken a review of their business, they feel that your extra work outside school hours could, indirectly, deprive them of pupils who might, otherwise, pay them for your services rather than pay you direct.

Last point - notwithstanding your flip response that many things are illegal in Thailand - the fact that your extra curricular work is done without a work permit and, presumably, without paying taxes doesnt really give you much leverage, either legally or morally. Get into a fight with your employer about this, and what's to stop them tipping off the Dept of Labour.

Not what you want to hear, I guess, but I'd be treading carefully if I was you.

[donna]

thanks bendix. i knew you would know!

[Upcountry]

-

Based on other anecdotes I've heard (other situations where higher-ups got in the way of teachers tutoring or teaching on the side), I'd suggest keeping an ear out for how the students and their parents react to the news.

If they find out that they might not be able to buy your tutoring anymore - or that of your colleagues - they may have something to say. If enough students and parents complain, the school management might back down and quietly let the previous status quo continue.

It might be worth figuring out what caused the eruption in the first place.

[geronimo]

I have been with the same employer for approx three years (three years this September). During this period I have provided private tutoring both paid and unpaid. There has NEVER been anything in the contract/s to state that such an activity is prohibited.

So, for approx three years everything was fine, my private tutoring was known about from day one, I never advertised my services and would only offer assistance ONLY if I were approached by concerned parents, requesting additonal help for their children.

Last week myself and my foreign colleagues were informed that we can no longer provide extra tuition as it's against the policy of the school. I was informed that if I didn't stop my tutoring in private then my current contract would not be renewed.

As stated previously, there NEVER has been anything in any contracts signed, past or present to highlight this somewhat important fact. Also, I never received a copy of the latest contract which I signed sometime in June/July this year. Apparently the latest contract states that two months notice is required to quit, previously it was one.

As this 'new' policy was just recently relayed, I have gone past the 'two month notice' period, no fault on my part because if this 'new' policy was not announced, I would have renewed the contract.

From a legal aspect, I would be very interested to know where I stand legally.

In any case, I haved decided to move on and start my own business but I would like to try and help any current or future foreign employees who decide to work at this institution.

What do you guys think? Can I sue them?

Pay a visit to your local Labour office and tell them everything. I am certain they will at least tell you where you stand legally. (You may need a translator if your Thai isn't up to it)

[bendix]

Brilliant idea, geronimo. Tell the Labour Dept that he's been working illegally without a work permit and without paying taxes for the last three years. I like that idea. Why the hel_l didnt i think of it?

[geronimo]

Brilliant idea, geronimo. Tell the Labour Dept that he's been working illegally without a work permit and without paying taxes for the last three years. I like that idea. Why the hel_l didnt i think of it?

The OP says nothing about not having a WP Bendix so get off my case

and btw I actually did sue a a school without a wp and won!!!!!!!

[solo siam]

he's moonlighting is Bendix's point, if the school isn't receiving the money from his private tutoring and/or he isn't paying taxes on the income from it then its illegal.

Besides the point is that the school could take the simple point that the extra-curricular activity is affecting his performance or encouraging favouritism towards certain students.

I must admit that the idea of talking to the labour department about the situation seems pretty absurd but I think the OP should give it a go.

[geronimo]

he's moonlighting is Bendix's point, if the school isn't receiving the money from his private tutoring and/or he isn't paying taxes on the income from it then its illegal.

Besides the point is that the school could take the simple point that the extra-curricular activity is affecting his performance or encouraging favouritism towards certain students.

I must admit that the idea of talking to the labour department about the situation seems pretty absurd but I think the OP should give it a go.

Point taken about the moonilghting

[meadish_sweetball]

It might be worth figuring out what caused the eruption in the first place.

Agreed.

Sounds to me like the cause could be one or more parents complaining, due to the belief/opinion that the kids who receive additional tutoring get an unfair advantage. This issue has been debated hotly in the past. If there are enough parents who support you, and if you can show that these kids do not receive any unfair advantages, perhaps that would solve the issue.

[steveromagnino]

With regards to the time you have already been tutoring, other than breaching the law through working without a work permit, you seem to be ok provided no one asks why you did not declare earnings or get the WP.

However, from here on in, for them to add a new clause to your contract explicitly excluding your right to tutor would hinge on a few things:

- do they state in your contract that you will abide by some code of conduct & do they state they have the rights to update that code of conduct from time to time

- do they state in the contract that they have the rights to add new terms as they see fit regarding prohibited activities or similar

- do they have work hours stated and have you ever taught or could they demonstrate you have ever been or will use such time for private contracting (tutoring) during their time that they 'have you on contract?'

My own guess is you have been engaging in an illegal activity as you have not had a work permit, plus you have been using your position within the school to obtain personal profit that has been acheived during the time and a direct result of your employment with the school. And that is ignoring the obvious ethical problem of any teacher privately tutoring their own students - surely the job as a teacher is to get all the students to a certain level, not to use them as a source of personal profit if they are falling behind.

An administrator could theoretically make life VERY tough for you thrice over; sue you for a share of that revenue; report you to the labour department and if they had terms in the contract with the ability to refer to a code of conduct, change that then immediately fire you as soon as you did any tutoring.

The other issues you raise are merely aspects of internal management, and highlight that perhaps what you expect and what they will deliver are a mismatch - you probably should either learn to:

- negotiate and manage the terms of your contract to get what you want more proactively

- leave and get a new job

- suck it up

Sorry, but as George Castanza once said 'a man with no hand, is no man at all.'

I don't think you have a hand here.

[jingjingna]

Thanks for all the responses. I thought an update would be in order ..the whole thing erupted from jealousy within. As for the 'flip' remark I made, I stand by what I said.

The children and age groups that I provide extra tutoring to are not 'my' students, so favouring them/or helping to obtain better grades just because they get an hour with me on a Saturday is of no consequence whatsoever.

I am well liked by parents and the kids.On many occasssions, I have provided some children the opportunity to learn with me free of charge because of their real desire to learn English.

The current 'policy' was mentioned without the knowledge or blessing of the Director/s of this institution. Thankfully my immediate boss who was unaware of the situation wants to keep me at the school, come what may.

However, having had the backing of some very nice Thai parents and a few close and trustworthy Thai friends, I have decided to set up my own business. As far as I am concerened, It's the school's loss, not mine and in a way, I guess I should thank the jealous twosome for helping me!

Anyway, thanks to everyone for their opinions, I will bite the bullet and and do what I should have done a few years back!

[jingjingna]

I also forgot to mention that I am one of the longest serving teachers at this school. In May 2006, all the 'English' teachers were given an improved contract, i.e more pay. I was given mine in July. Most of the teachers joined the school after me..yet, everyone, except myself got the extra pay award. (I was completely unware of this).

My salary is paid directly into my bank acccount and therefore verifiable.

In July when I was awarded the 'rise' I was informed that I am still required to pay 'taxes', which the 'School' will manage. What they did not tell us is that we will be charged a service charge of around Baht 650 a month for doing so.

Fortunately, some clued up English teachers approached the Labour Dept who confirmed we were paying too much tax.

End result - we got our refund but the two guys who brought up the problem were shafted, contracts not renewed or perhaps even asked to leave since their 'teaching' was no longer upto the school's requirements!

I am leaving of my own accord but there are certain people within who will get rid without just cause, makes rules, bend them or even disregard the ..without the knowledge of the 'real' people that matter, i.e, Directors, Parents and of course the kids