Looking For Some Encouragement!

[meadish_sweetball]

Sorry 'bout that... I was thinking that sometimes the mid tone can sound like a high tone to some farangs (or at least to this farang). When some people say, loudly and in a surprised or perturbed way, "a-rai" - that often does sound very high-toned. Could it be because some of us don't normally speak in the mid tone in Western languages that the Thai middle tone may sound high sometimes? Perhaps the key to distinguishing them is that the high tone actually does rise a bit from its starting point?

Another thing to consider, perhaps, is that different voices have different pitches, and so the tones are relative between different speakers? It seems one must be attuned to the rhythm and pitch of each particular voice in order to get the full flow of their own tones.

Hmm...does that make any sense?

Yes, it makes sense I think. The rules are offset in a number of cases, but if you do not learn the theoretical side properly from the start you run the risk of finding yourself forever in limbo until you do understand them.

It's like most systems, really. Before you start to break the rules, you have to learn what they are.

[AlexLah]

What I would like to ask to the experienced speakers/readers is the following.

I am having great difficulties 'owning' the words.

With that I mean for example if you say: " Raan ahaan yu ti naai.

Do you hear yourself say: 'Restaurant where is, or do you just know/memorise that that phrase means where is the restaurant.

Other simple words like : Rot fai = Car fire, hong naam= room water

I asked this in my office today as I was trying to explain why the Thai language seems so unlogic to me.

Answer from them Rot fai means train, No I said it is car fire and they had to smile, same with hong naam and a bunch of other words and phrases I asked them.

So for fun we putted a few phrases on the white board in Thai and the translate word by word.

I asked them when reading the english version if it made sense, no absolutely not they said.

Can you imagine how I feel I asked them.

Anyway we had great fun and I am sure after 10 years learning I will be able to order Som Tam the way I like it, ha haha

[DurianChips]

Other simple words like : Rot fai = Car fire, hong naam= room water

It seems to me that we have compound nouns like this in English too. 'Water closet', for instance, doesn't really make logical sense, but we understand it means bathroom. Understanding that the adjective in Thai comes after the noun (perhaps I'm used to this, since I also speak Spanish), I would translate hong naam literally as water room, which doesn't seem so unreasonable a description of a bathroom. Similarly, with rot fai, it would become fire car, or perhaps fire vehicle, which seems an apt description of a coal-fired train, albeit not a modern, electrical train.

To answer your question though, I think as you speak more and more, the compound nature of these words will probably recede in your mind.

[meadish_sweetball]

Agree with Durian there. In the early stages of learning Thai, the literal meaning of compound words gave me many a good laugh. In not so few cases, Thai is more logical (or at any rate, more transparent) than English.

Consider 'rot phayabaan' which means "hospital car" - all of us understand immediately what it refers to. But 'ambulance' is not transparent at all unless you know Latin...

There are more examples like that - and obviously such examples as AlexLah mentioned, where the Thai is not transparent. But after a while, words and sentence structures fall into place, and you internalize the words you know. I haven't though about the fact that 'rot fai' literally is 'fire car' since I first started studying - I just use it, the same as I say 'tåg' in Swedish and 'train' in English (by the way, shouldn't the driver of a train be called a 'trainer'? ).

[AlexLah]

My question again to MS and others.

Do you speak like this in your mind:" Restaurant where is" ore Where is the restaurant?

[meadish_sweetball]

Neither. In my everyday life I just speak, without analyzing it through another language.

The only times another language comes into the picture is when I want to say something in Thai I lack the correct vocabulary for - I find myself sometimes looking for how I would explain it in simple English or Swedish, and then attempt to make a rough translation of that into Thai (obviously changing the grammar and structureto fit Thai). Generally it does not work so well on the first attempt, but after you have tried to express the same idea in two or three ways, usually the other person will catch on to what you are saying.

[garro]

I agree with Meadish.

There is actually a very good model created by Dreyfus & Dreyfus which describes how we learn a new skill called 'from novice to expert'. I encountered this model during my nursing studies degree but it could equally apply to language acquisition. The model begins with;

Novice - here we have no experience of the language but are learning the rules; we do not know when to apply or not apply these rules

Advanced beginner- we know the rules and can apply them most times but have problems when the rules don't apply

Competent - we can handle most situations but still need to check the rules occasionally

Expert- we know what to do in every situation intuitively and no longer need to know the rules. At this stage we may know something is right but find it hard to explain the reasons why

I am far from an expert but have witnessed this process in regards to the Thai language. I can now often know the tone of a word I see without needing to think about the tone rules. This is the same with Thai words which after a while become available in your head without needing to think about them. I hope this makes sense.

Edited August 3, 2007 by garro

[DurianChips]

I've also found that sometimes, especially for phrases, the appropriate question to ask isn't 'what does this mean?', but rather 'how is this used?'.

The first example that comes to mind for me are the words ka ค่ะ and krup ครับ. Meaning? I suppose you could translate them as polite particles like sir, or madam, but these are rarely seen in English nowadays, and besides, they don't really give the full flavor of the function of these particles in Thai. However, if you ask how they are used, the question is much easier to answer.

What does dai ได้ mean? Well, when translating different sentences, you might choose entirely different English words. But ask about the usage of this word, and one can easily list three or four distinct and well-defined roles that this word plays in the Thai language.

The concept of meaning in translation seems to work well between grammatically similar languages (like English and Spanish). Between non-similar languages like English and Thai, I find usage to be more, well, useful. Think of a language like a toolbox. English and Spanish have similar tools. So, if you want to speak Spanish, you just reach for the 'Spanish' saw instead of the 'English' saw. Torturing this metaphor a bit further, in the Thai toolbox there may not be a saw. This doesn't mean you can't cut wood. It just means you might have to use a hatchet instead.

Real example: English has verb tenses. Thai doesn't. Does this mean that you can't express concepts of past, present, and future in Thai? Of course not, you just have to do it a different way (w/o tenses)

I think meadish is right that, as your Thai improves, you shouldn't need to keep translating everything back into English in your head.

BTW, my favorite compound word in Thai is แม่น้ำ, meaning river, but literally water mother.

[Richard W]

Real example: English has verb tenses. Thai doesn't. Does this mean that you can't express concepts of past, present, and future in Thai? Of course not, you just have to do it a different way (w/o tenses)

Thai does have tenses - it's just that the only obligatory ones are the present and future. I may be wrong about the future tense being obligatory, but Thai certainly uses it a lot more than English does for future reference.

[Richard W]

When some people say, loudly and in a surprised or perturbed way, "a-rai" - that often does sound very high-toned.

Let me quote Li on this:

1.4.9. Emphatic tones. The emphatic tone is also a shift of tone from any other tone to a high tone, for the purpose of intensification. It is chiefly used in repetitive expressions and in exclamatory sentences. For example: dii 55 dii 33 'very good', ?im 55 ?im 22 'very full', ?a 33 rai 453 'what?!', from dii 33, ?im 22, and ?a 33 rai 33.

The numbers are pitch levels, from 1 (lowest) to 5 (highest).

Another thing to consider, perhaps, is that different voices have different pitches, and so the tones are relative between different speakers? It seems one must be attuned to the rhythm and pitch of each particular voice in order to get the full flow of their own tones.

Hmm...does that make any sense?

Plenty.

[mangkorn]

The term "owning the words" is a very good one. That is the goal. I've mentioned before that I think one of the first indicators of real accomplishment in language study is when you begin to dream in the target language; one of the final indicators is when you stop trying to translate in your mind first, and just know how to say it in the new language. Much of that just comes from listening very closely to the way that people speak - from overhearing conversations, on the train, at the food stall, or anywhere.

One may think of several different ways to try to translate something simple (e.g., asking for a ride), and probably never succeed in sounding natural; but once you hear a native say it in their own way, you should never forget it. I laboured for a long time over how to properly say "I didn't mean to do that intentionally," until I overheard someone say "mai dai dtang jai," and then it made perfect sense (of course, there are a couple of other ways to say it, depending on the context, but when you hear them, they should become yours.)

I think that one has to be like a parrot - to absorb everything you hear - which will give you not only the proper words and phrases, but also the rhythm and tones.

Picking one from another thread, I never hear the word หรือ as written, when used as an interrogative particle. I always hear it as the English "law" very drawn-out, and rising. I say it perfectly from repeating what I hear, but if I tried to say it as written, it would probably sound strange and forced.

Also agree that Thai vocabulary is astonishingly logical in many respects. Without knowing the word for ambulance, a simple educated guess gave me the right word the first time I ever had occasion to try using it. Other examples of logical construction are too numerous to mention.

A combination of these two ideas: I once saw in a dictionary that a "spatula" was a compound word employing "spoon," "mouth" and "flat." That seemed positively brilliant to me. But, then I learned that Thais don't actually use that word, instead having adopted the (Chinese?) word ตะหลิว - which I only discovered after overhearing someone else say it (and after I had failed to make myself understood when I said "flat-mouthed spoon."

So, one must study endlessly - but also listen very, very closely.

Cheers.

Edited August 4, 2007 by mangkorn

[mangkorn]

Real example: English has verb tenses. Thai doesn't. Does this mean that you can't express concepts of past, present, and future in Thai? Of course not, you just have to do it a different way (w/o tenses)

Thai does have tenses - it's just that the only obligatory ones are the present and future. I may be wrong about the future tense being obligatory, but Thai certainly uses it a lot more than English does for future reference.

I'm not sure that Thai uses the future tense more than English does. Thais may use จะ more than English-speakers use "will..." - but in English it is more-commonly expressed as "am/is/are going to...(do something)." That may not be classified as strictly future tense, being present-progressive (?), but it clearly does indicate future action/intention.

[mangkorn]

My question again to MS and others.

Do you speak like this in your mind:" Restaurant where is" ore Where is the restaurant?

That is a perfect example of just knowing how it is properly said, with no need to think it through. (I guess meadish already said that - sorry.)

Your other example, "roht = car" is not quite correct; "roht" means a vehicle, used for transporting people and/or goods (apart from maritime or aviation vehicles). It can be a pushcart, a bus, a train, a truck, a wheelchair...

If you think of word meanings in that way, it makes perfect sense. Knowing that the adjective generally follows the noun, a "fire (-powered) vehicle" is obviously a train. Thus, roht-fai-faa is an electric train; roht-ken is a vehicle that you push forward; roht-yon(t) is a combustion-engine vehicle (automobile); roht-ban-tuk is a cargo vehicle (truck); roht-tua® is a touring vehicle (bus), etc.

Methinks that is far more logical than car, bus, truck and train.

Cheers.

[CSS]

My question again to MS and others.

Do you speak like this in your mind:" Restaurant where is" ore Where is the restaurant?

That is a perfect example of just knowing how it is properly said, with no need to think it through. (I guess meadish already said that - sorry.)

Your other example, "roht = car" is not quite correct; "roht" means a vehicle, used for transporting people and/or goods (apart from maritime or aviation vehicles). It can be a pushcart, a bus, a train, a truck, a wheelchair...

If you think of word meanings in that way, it makes perfect sense. Knowing that the adjective generally follows the noun, a "fire (-powered) vehicle" is obviously a train. Thus, roht-fai-faa is an electric train; roht-ken is a vehicle that you push forward; roht-yon(t) is a combustion-engine vehicle (automobile); roht-ban-tuk is a cargo vehicle (truck); roht-tua® is a touring vehicle (bus), etc.

Methinks that is far more logical than car, bus, truck and train.

Cheers.

There are obviously many different ways to learn a language each with its positives and negatives. Thai was the first language I learned using a method that taught, from day one, phrases rather than individual words and didn't translate anything. It was harder at first but ultimately I found the method got me to a conversational level faster than any I had used previously. With the other languages I would have a period where I was "translating" from English to Thai and from Thai to English everything that I said or was said to me. Thus, I would constantly think people spoke too fast. With Thai from the very start I attached Thai words with objects, emotions, actions, ideas and thoughts rather than English words. At least that's what I did for the first three months when I had a teacher and class. Certainly once I was learning on my own I consulted a Thai-English dictionary constantly but I still had a focus to connect Thai words with what it "points to" rather than the English relative equivalent. I was also learning by doing or picking it up as I lived day by day in a Thai speaking environment. I've never felt like Thais speak too fast or that I"m not keeping up. There are gaps in understanding/comprehension but I've never felt like it was simply because I wasn't keeping up. In comparison when I was learning Spanish I constantly felt like I had a large enough vocabulary and strong enough command of the language to understand but I just couldn't keep up. I've wondered if this is because Spanish is just a much faster spoken language than Thai (which it is) or whether it's due to the different way I learned the language. Though it's probably a mixture of both.

Thus, to answer your question, I think in neither 'Restaurant where is' nor 'where is the restaurant.' Rather I learned that when I'm in a situation where I need to find a restaurant then I say "Ran ahan yoo tee nai"

It is fun to make jokes with Thai friends that know some English though. For example, I like to ask them if they would like some "water hard" in their coke. (When I say ice in Thai however I don't think English=ice --> water hard -->water-->nam hard-->kang-->thai= nam kang. I simply think of the whole word/phrase nam kang as equivalent to that cold liquid thing used in drinks and other things.

[stevehaigh]

I've been trying for some time now, and the tones really aren't coming to me... Whether it be speaking, or listening.

I'm interested in hearing some stories perhaps of people who struggled but eventually got the tones down. I'm also interested in hearing how you were succesful in achieving this.

Thanks,

Dog.

me too dawg!

one great tool is the lessons on thai-language.com

http://thai-language.com/lessons/?les=798459

however, i mostly suck at this. i find it more useful for reading practice. i find i can understand without having a good sense for the tone because you can generally (but not always) tell by context.

speaking is probably more important since thais, especially ones not used to hearding thai spoken badly, expect the correct tone. now, when i learn new words, and even revisit some old ones, i pay much more attention to the tone than i did a couple of years ago. i can read a bit of thai now but i can't figure the tone from written thai so i still need transliteration for that.

again, http://thai-language.com/ is the way to go and make sure you practice words with a native thai speaker until you get the sound right.

and remember, it's not only tone, there are many subtle differences in the sound of the constantants and vowels and vowel length which can also throw thai listeners off.

for example,

phit ผิด (wrong) and bpit ปิด (close) are both low tone and sound pretty much the same to us but completly different and confusing if spoken wrong.

[AlexLah]

Very good topic here and very good advice from TV members.

Due to this topic I went out today and buy the Thai for beginners book and cd from Benjawan Poomsan and another one from her called: Improving your Thai pronounciation.

So I will try again and this time a strict regime of spending at least one hour a day to study.

Thanks alll!!!

[meadish_sweetball]

Good luck Alex! Looking forward to hearing about your questions and observations as you go along.