Don’t kill the golden goose! Tax reforms may drive away expats

[anrcaccount]

15 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

You wanted me to accept the links that you posted as being the absolute proof, I didn't. Don't expect me to believe something, just because you say it is so, I need you to prove it. On my side is a BP article dated 2012 AND the TRD Code, your only evidence is 2003 heresy and constant bleating that TCC's are no longer operational.....prove it to me, show me that my evidence has been superseded and I may concede it is so. 

 

Talk to any Non B Visa/ Work permit holder, agent, tax advisor or lawyer.  If you know an Immigration officer, ask them. They'll all confirm that these are no longer operational. I'm not sure why you continue to try to refute this. 

 

Let me try to put it another way, maybe you can accept this.

 

If this was operationally enforced , do you accept there'd be much more discussion or guidance about it on this forum over many years, like there is about every other minutiae of documents and requirements?

 

There's nothing apart from the posts stating it hasn't been in force for many years, and now, your thought bubbles regarding it.  

 

 

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, anrcaccount said:

 

Talk to any Non B Visa/ Work permit holder, agent, tax advisor or lawyer.  If you know an Immigration officer, ask them. They'll all confirm that these are no longer operational. I'm not sure why you continue to try to refute this. 

 

Let me try to put it another way, maybe you can accept this.

 

If this was operationally enforced , do you accept there'd be much more discussion or guidance about it on this forum over many years, like there is about every other minutiae of documents and requirements?

 

There's nothing apart from the posts stating it hasn't been in force for many years, and now, your thought bubbles regarding it.  

 

 

You changed your language from TCC's having been rescinded to them not being in operation!!! Now when I ask you for proof that my BP link has been superseded you tell me to go talk to a lawyer or an Immigration person! I don't want to do those things, I want you to support your claim or say that you don't have proof you can give us and that your claim is nothing more than an unsupportable opinion. No more debate between you and me until you update your evidence.

 

 

[anrcaccount]

2 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

You changed your language from TCC's having been rescinded to them not being in operation!!! Now when I ask you for proof that my BP link has been superseded you tell me to go talk to a lawyer or an Immigration person! I don't want to do those things, I want you to support your claim or say that you don't have proof you can give us and that your claim is nothing more than an unsupportable opinion. No more debate between you and me until you update your evidence.

 

 

 

 

This started when you falsely claimed:

 

162,000 foreign  skilled and professionals working in Thailand, that's not a handful! Each would need to obtain a Tax Clearance Certificate from TRD, before leaving the country.

 

I then corrected this claim, your understanding of TCC's, and what documents Non B Visa / work permit holders are required to show regarding tax, which do not include TCC's. 

 

I have not changed my language - I never said TCC's have been rescinded. I said, while the law is still on the books, it's not operational and has not been for a long time.  

 

[chiang mai]

1 hour ago, anrcaccount said:

 

 

This started when you falsely claimed:

 

162,000 foreign  skilled and professionals working in Thailand, that's not a handful! Each would need to obtain a Tax Clearance Certificate from TRD, before leaving the country.

 

I then corrected this claim, your understanding of TCC's, and what documents Non B Visa / work permit holders are required to show regarding tax, which do not include TCC's. 

 

I have not changed my language - I never said TCC's have been rescinded. I said, while the law is still on the books, it's not operational and has not been for a long time.  

 

Like so many posters, you are more interested in winning an argument based on minutae than on trying to dig down and explore what the correct answer or scenario might be.

[Ralf001]

On 9/12/2024 at 3:38 PM, chiang mai said:

When did what come into effect, that work permit holders must settle taxes before they leave the country? I imagine years ago, perhaps others know when.

 

Yeah right.

 

I was made redundant in 2017, I went home... nothing about settling taxes was mentioned.

 

I returned 2019 to another job so new work permit.... nothing mentioned about not settling taxes when I left in 2017.

[chiang mai]

2 minutes ago, Ralf001 said:

 

Yeah right.

 

I was made redundant in 2017, I went home... nothing about settling taxes was mentioned.

 

I returned 2019 to another job so new work permit.... nothing mentioned about not settling taxes when I left in 2017.

Did the company you work for pay TRD your taxes?

[Ralf001]

1 minute ago, chiang mai said:

Did the company you work for pay TRD your taxes?

 

Yes, of course.... Dont all employers ?

[chiang mai]

57 minutes ago, Ralf001 said:

 

Yes, of course.... Dont all employers ?

I don't know, that's why I asked. I know some people work as freelance or self employed status and pay their own taxes but I don't know if you can do that on a WP - I used to do that in Europe and Asia. 

 

So you work, your employer pays your tax directly to the TRD and then what, you file a tax return at the end of the year to settle up? I guess in that scenario the TRD doesn't care if you leave or not, they probably even hope that you do so they don't have to deal with your tax return.

 

The check and balance in that set up is the employer is on the hook to deduct and pay the tax so that's the guarantee. You were made redundant and nothing was said about settling taxes because your employer had already done that.....I wonder if you filed a tax return that year to reclaim tax paid?

Edited September 14 by chiang mai

[Ralf001]

57 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

I don't know, that's why I asked. I know some people work as freelance or self employed status and pay their own taxes but I don't know if you can do that on a WP - I used to do that in Europe and Asia. 

 

So you work, your employer pays your tax directly to the TRD and then what, you file a tax return at the end of the year to settle up? I guess in that scenario the TRD doesn't care if you leave or not, they probably even hope that you do so they don't have to deal with your tax return.

 

The check and balance in that set up is the employer is on the hook to deduct and pay the tax so that's the guarantee. You were made redundant and nothing was said about settling taxes because your employer had already done that.....I wonder if you filed a tax return that year to reclaim tax paid?

 

My employer files my tax return.

 

Funny to see you now guess "what the TRD" do !

Edited September 14 by Ralf001

[chiang mai]

52 minutes ago, Ralf001 said:

 

My employer files my tax return.

 

Funny to see you now guess "what the TRD" do !

Well, until somebody explains chapter and verse of what happens, that's what we have to do is guess! But once again, the guarantee that taxes will be paid is transferred to the employer, not the WP holder.

Edited September 14 by chiang mai

[Ralf001]

Just now, chiang mai said:

Well, until somebody explains chapter and verse of what happens, that's what we have to do is guess!

 

Yeah... most your posts are derived from you guessing.

[chiang mai]

1 hour ago, Ralf001 said:

 

Yeah... most your posts are derived from you guessing.

Don't be a <deleted> Rolf, we're trying to work out how the process works! I said earlier that I guaranteed there had to be some way the TRD was guaranteed its taxes, before the taxpayer left the country and there is broadly is. The responsibility for taxes is transferred to the employer who becomes the taxpayer's proxy. That makes sense because the employer remains here hence they don't care if the taxpayer leaves or not.

 

But you can't overlay that model onto non-WP holders because there is no proxy to take responsibility for paying their tax, unless some form of guarantee were to exist, which is where the 400k/800k could potentially prove useful.

Edited September 14 by metisdead
Derogatory comment edited out.

[Ralf001]

1 hour ago, chiang mai said:

Don't be a <deleted> Rolf, we're trying to work out how the process works! I said earlier that I guaranteed there had to be some way the TRD was guaranteed its taxes,

Guaranteed...... or guess ?

[chiang mai]

Just now, Ralf001 said:

Guaranteed...... or guess ?

I wrote that, "I can guarantee you that there is some mechanism in place to ensure the TRD receives the taxes that are due, before the expat taxpayer leaves the country and goes home, absolutely guarantee".

[Ralf001]

Just now, chiang mai said:

I wrote that, "I can guarantee you that there is some mechanism in place to ensure the TRD receives the taxes that are due, before the expat taxpayer leaves the country and goes home, absolutely guarantee".

 

Yeah right.... so guess then because what you guarantee is baseless.

[chiang mai]

Just now, Ralf001 said:

 

Yeah right.... so guess then because what you guarantee is baseless.

You may be bored and lonely and want somebody to fight with but I have no such need so welcome to my ignore list. Byee.

[Ralf001]

1 minute ago, chiang mai said:

You may be bored and lonely and want somebody to fight with but I have no such need so welcome to my ignore list. Byee.

 

Are you guessing Iam bored and lonely ?

[Joebuzzz]

On 9/11/2024 at 6:18 AM, Johno57 said:

Obviously this has not been thought about in depth, and their was the idea of charging the tourist a small amount to enter the country which was dismissed as it might affect tourism, and now this idea will really hurt the common thai business as NO retired person will accept a double tax and make thailand home..

Already selling my stuff. Gotta get back to two suitcases.

[NoDisplayName]

8 hours ago, anrcaccount said:

Subtly speculating that an obscure regulation, still on the books but not operational for more than 20 years, might be used in the future...................... I don't see that as being helpful or providing any guidance on what might happen later.

 

If a law is on the books, but not enforced, surely a simple policy change could bring it back to life.

 

Isn't that what happened with the change to how the law was enforced on taxation of remittances?

[chiang mai]

3 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

If a law is on the books, but not enforced, surely a simple policy change could bring it back to life.

 

Isn't that what happened with the change to how the law was enforced on taxation of remittances?

Well, at a minimum it was enforced for some visa groups in 2012, according to the BP, and that was only little more than a decade ago.

 

The remittance law was slightly different, that was a legal reinterpretation of the rule rather than activation of a rule that had been dormant. But still, reactivating TCC's and making them  a requirement for most people, could be accomplished overnight.

 

I'm beginning to think a system whereby the 800k/400k is used as a guarantee that taxes have/will be paid might be doable, it more closely mirrors what WP holders have at present by their employer guaranteeing the same thing.

[Joebuzzz]

On 9/11/2024 at 6:41 AM, chiang mai said:

Spending by Western expats is miniscule by comparison to the larger picture, many have an unrealistic view of our worth. By various estimates there are around 300k Western expats in Thailand as well as 2.7 million other foreigners, mostly from neighbouring countries. Some seem to think that just because a foreigner spends 100k a month and their Thai neighbour earns only 35k a month that it makes a difference to GDP or the national economy. At best that impact is only 3% of GDP and that is if all 300k leave tomorrow. Those people living in tourist ghettos such as Pattaya probably don't see that because they think they are in the majority, elsewhere the picture is very different.

300,000 expats contributing the 65,000 Baht per month (amount required to transfer for a few of us) equals about $590,000,000 to the economy, monthly.

2023 GDP of Thailand was $515 BILLION.

But believing that foreigners are a drop in that bucket is wrong.

Thailand exports about $600 BILLION ANNUALLY.

Expats use grocery stores, mechanics, contractors, pharmacies, doctors, dentists, etc, everything during low season. Too many bail and it certainly won't affect exports. And when tourists show up for high season, they'll find a lot of emptiness.

[chiang mai]

4 minutes ago, Joebuzzz said:

300,000 expats contributing the 65,000 Baht per month (amount required to transfer for a few of us) equals about $590,000,000 to the economy, monthly.

2023 GDP of Thailand was $515 BILLION.

But believing that foreigners are a drop in that bucket is wrong.

Thailand exports about $600 BILLION ANNUALLY.

Expats use grocery stores, mechanics, contractors, pharmacies, doctors, dentists, etc, everything during low season. Too many bail and it certainly won't affect exports. And when tourists show up for high season, they'll find a lot of emptiness.

I see the number differently.

 

The 300,000 Western foreigners comprises 170,000 working expats on WP's, according to the 2019 UN migration report, those people earn money inside the country and pay tax on it. The remainder are retired or long stay expats who remit money here from overseas. 130,000 x 65k month. / 35 baht per USD = 241 bill or 5% of GDP, I think that's very small in the bigger picture of things.

 

 

[motdaeng]

13 minutes ago, Joebuzzz said:

300,000 expats contributing the 65,000 Baht per month (amount required to transfer for a few of us) equals about $590,000,000 to the economy, monthly.

2023 GDP of Thailand was $515 BILLION.

But believing that foreigners are a drop in that bucket is wrong.

Thailand exports about $600 BILLION ANNUALLY.

Expats use grocery stores, mechanics, contractors, pharmacies, doctors, dentists, etc, everything during low season. Too many bail and it certainly won't affect exports. And when tourists show up for high season, they'll find a lot of emptiness.

 

i think most of the expats would get away with a small tax bill or even no tax at all. and some expats could be leaving because of the taxes ... but this group will be easily replaced by new arrivals ... it won't be all or nothing ...

[Joebuzzz]

3 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

I see the number differently.

 

The 300,000 Western foreigners comprises 170,000 working expats on WP's, according to the 2019 UN migration report, those people earn money inside the country and pay tax on it. The remainder are retired or long stay expats who remit money here from overseas. 130,000 x 65k month. / 35 baht per USD = 241 bill or 5% of GDP, I think that's very small in the bigger picture of things.

 

 

50% of expats leaving my condo building would pretty much put all the businesses downstairs out of business.

[NoDisplayName]

9 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Well, at a minimum it was enforced for some visa groups in 2012, according to the BP, and that was only little more than a decade ago.

 

The remittance law was slightly different, that was a legal reinterpretation of the rule rather than activation of a rule that had been dormant. But still, reactivating TCC's and making them  a requirement for most people, could be accomplished overnight.

 

I'm beginning to think a system whereby the 800k/400k is used as a guarantee that taxes have/will be paid might be doable, it more closely mirrors what WP holders have at present by their employer guaranteeing the same thing.

 

Let's ask the experts!

 

Tax Clearance Certificate

https://www.rd.go.th/english/23518.html

Last updated: 23.11.2020

 

Looks like even tourists spending  >90 aggregate days in Thailand who have any tax liability must apply for tax clearance according to the law.  Enforcement is simply temporarily suspended.

 

That suggests it could be required for anyone tax resident with a bank account earning interest.

 

[chiang mai]

Just now, Joebuzzz said:

50% of expats leaving my condo building would pretty much put all the businesses downstairs out of business.

Anecdotal, nothing more.

[Joebuzzz]

Just now, motdaeng said:

 

i think most of the expats would get away with a small tax bill or even no tax at all. and some expats could be leaving because of the taxes ... but this group will be easily replaced by new arrivals ... it won't be all or nothing ...

I was just trying to point out that, no matter what, there will be losers in the Thai business sector.

[chiang mai]

Just now, Joebuzzz said:

I was just trying to point out that, no matter what, there will be losers in the Thai business sector.

Sure, Thailand is constantly evolving, when one nationality fails to present large numbers of tourists, TAT goes after another country to provide them.  When motorbike rental shops saturate the market, people open coffee shops, after that laundrettes....remember internet cafe's here! Today it's grab delivery or courier services and selling via the internet. When one door closes, another opens.....people here Are more flexible and willing to try new things in order to survive, because there's mp nanny state to fall back on.

[motdaeng]

4 minutes ago, Joebuzzz said:

50% of expats leaving my condo building would pretty much put all the businesses downstairs out of business.

 

they won't ... don't worry 😊 

[Joebuzzz]

Just now, motdaeng said:

 

they won't ... don't worry 😊 

Read this one.

It's already going down, down, down.

 

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