Empower Foundation

[canadiangirl]

Hey mods,

I hope this is ok. I just wanted to explain myself: I posted a link to a history of sex work in Thailand, that I thought was informative and as unbiased as possible, then basically went to bed. I woke up this morning to find the thread closed -- I had no idea it would generate that much controversy!

Anyways, I was hoping I could just have the chance to clarify: this history is highly valuable because it is written by Thai sex workers themselves, and it looks at how different wars, land reform, royal decrees and economic conditions influenced the development of the sex industry.

Most writing on the subject falls into two camps: feminists concerned with human trafficking, and sex tourists/sexpats boasting about their exploits, both of which have reasons to be biased one way or another. But this was written by the women themselves.

[ratchabuild]

Hey mods,

I hope this is ok. I just wanted to explain myself: I posted a link to a history of sex work in Thailand, that I thought was informative and as unbiased as possible, then basically went to bed. I woke up this morning to find the thread closed -- I had no idea it would generate that much controversy!

Anyways, I was hoping I could just have the chance to clarify: this history is highly valuable because it is written by Thai sex workers themselves, and it looks at how different wars, land reform, royal decrees and economic conditions influenced the development of the sex industry.

Most writing on the subject falls into two camps: feminists concerned with human trafficking, and sex tourists/sexpats boasting about their exploits, both of which have reasons to be biased one way or another. But this was written by the women themselves.

Well I enjoyed it, shame it did not get chance to develop, might have been very informative.

[kat]

Hey mods,

I hope this is ok. I just wanted to explain myself: I posted a link to a history of sex work in Thailand, that I thought was informative and as unbiased as possible, then basically went to bed. I woke up this morning to find the thread closed -- I had no idea it would generate that much controversy!

Anyways, I was hoping I could just have the chance to clarify: this history is highly valuable because it is written by Thai sex workers themselves, and it looks at how different wars, land reform, royal decrees and economic conditions influenced the development of the sex industry.

Most writing on the subject falls into two camps: feminists concerned with human trafficking, and sex tourists/sexpats boasting about their exploits, both of which have reasons to be biased one way or another. But this was written by the women themselves.

That's why you need to go beyond the "two camps" to get a full understanding of what is going on. You even need to go beyond the perspective of NGOS and "camps", because every single one has their own agenda, including those in Thailand. EMPOWER actually falls firmly into exactly the traditional Western feminist model, so it doesn't really illustrate a new angle, except that it's in Thailand.

Thanks for the link, though. And of course, the start of these last two threads represent no bias at all, lol.

[otton]

I posted a link to a history of sex work in Thailand, that I thought was informative and as unbiased as possible

You posted BS from an organization which (like you) is basically only interested (for several reasons with the most important ones being MONEY and ideology) in the tiny side of the Thai sex industry catering to foreigners (especially Westerners).

It doesn't matter that this is the side where if exploitation is present at all it is of the customers, not the providers... In the many forms of P4P catering to foreigners, the girls enjoy much more freedom and, on average, earn much more money than they do compared to the "Thai side". This is the side where the girls, besides getting money, are used to get husbands, boyfriends, houses, cars, holydays, "normal" jobs and "normal" lives. They get the chance to live a life their humble and poor origin would normally make impossible for them to even dream about.

This is not what normally happens in the much bigger part of the sex industry catering to Thais. Good money can be had in the relatively small high end of the Thai market but that's all and it's for very few anyway. What happens in Thai brothels is what should concern Empower and you but what do you do instead? You start a quote about the history of the Thai sex industry with "In 1920..."

I wonder what it is that attracts you to Thailand...

[canadiangirl]

That's why you need to go beyond the "two camps" to get a full understanding of what is going on. You even need to go beyond the perspective of NGOS and "camps", because every single one has their own agenda, including those in Thailand. EMPOWER actually falls firmly into exactly the traditional Western feminist model, so it doesn't really illustrate a new angle, except that it's in Thailand.

Hey Kat,

I agree with your observation about needing to go beyond a black and white idea to really understand what's going on.

Please correct me if I misunderstand what you've written above, but it wasn't my impression, from reading the rest of the site, that empower fell within a traditional western feminist model. In my understanding that model views sex workers as "oppressed victims of the patriarchy" (to exaggerate a stereotype), who should be saved from the sex trade. Whereas the view increasingly heard from sex workers themselves over the past few years, (sort of slotting itself into the more sex-positive third wave feminisn) is "stop treating us like children and victims" , while fighting for better, safer working conditions and respect for their work. This seemed to be the approach taken by this organisation.

[canadiangirl]

You posted BS from an organization which (like you) is basically only interested (for several reasons with the most important ones being MONEY and ideology) in the tiny side of the Thai sex industry catering to foreigners (especially Westerners).

I'm sorry: do you know how to read? I ask because if you read the web site you so eloquently comment upon, you'll see it is written by Thai prostitutes. Accuse me of ideology and bias, but can you make these accusations of women writing about their own situations? There's a huge section devoted to Burmese women, and other illegal migrant workers who have basically no rights in Thailand -- exactly the kind of people most likely to end up in the seedier side of the industry.

It doesn't matter that this is the side where if exploitation is present at all it is of the customers, not the providers... In the many forms of P4P catering to foreigners,

What is this, the new white man's burden?

This is not what normally happens in the much bigger part of the sex industry catering to Thais. Good money can be had in the relatively small high end of the Thai market but that's all and it's for very few anyway. What happens in Thai brothels is what should concern Empower and you but what do you do instead? You start a quote about the history of the Thai sex industry with "In 1920..."

Again, learn how to read. It's a quote from a bigger article, which goes back to Ayyuthaya in the 1600s.

I wonder what it is that attracts you to Thailand...

Certainly not <deleted> like you.

Jesus, what a f*cking uphill battle to have an intelligent, informed discussion on a complex topic!

[kat]

That's why you need to go beyond the "two camps" to get a full understanding of what is going on. You even need to go beyond the perspective of NGOS and "camps", because every single one has their own agenda, including those in Thailand. EMPOWER actually falls firmly into exactly the traditional Western feminist model, so it doesn't really illustrate a new angle, except that it's in Thailand.

Hey Kat,

I agree with your observation about needing to go beyond a black and white idea to really understand what's going on.

Please correct me if I misunderstand what you've written above, but it wasn't my impression, from reading the rest of the site, that empower fell within a traditional western feminist model. In my understanding that model views sex workers as "oppressed victims of the patriarchy" (to exaggerate a stereotype), who should be saved from the sex trade. Whereas the view increasingly heard from sex workers themselves over the past few years, (sort of slotting itself into the more sex-positive third wave feminisn) is "stop treating us like children and victims" , while fighting for better, safer working conditions and respect for their work. This seemed to be the approach taken by this organisation.

Don't get me wrong: this is not a slam against EMPOWER, or their work. I think within their niche in Thailand, they offer something truly necessary and unique. One of my points is that the sex workers movement from the perspective and control of sex workers is not something new within the last few years, not even the last two decades, and definitely not unique to Thailand. In fact, it totally goes against the norms and cultural mores of Thai society and mainstream Thai feminism. It is built from a global model of sex worker movements, rather than a Thai one. *The same splits that occur within the Western model, with some viewing them as victims and others viewing as empowered worker unions, exist in Thailand, but with Thai twists, of course.

My second point is that all NGOS and nonprofits have their own agendas, and in Thailand my experience has been that the presentation of information is even more controlled and manipulated than a lot of places, although this is the case for NGOs everywhere. Is this necessarily a bad thing? No, not when you agree or support their agenda, although that sometimes requires a full historical map as well. But, when you start to represent that one agenda as the framework for historical fact, you're going to run into factual problems, especially since Thai history has been traditionally distorted from so many different angles, and NGOS have their own as well.

*So, m point is not that it's less black and white, but not historically accurate to view things within a dichotomy, period.

[otton]

I'm sorry: do you know how to read? I ask because if you read the web site you so eloquently comment upon, you'll see it is written by Thai prostitutes.

It's written for the benefit of moralistic, puritanical Western feminists like you. Do you know where they get most of the money?

Certainly not <deleted> like you.

And by now you should have learned that most, here, are attracted to Thailand because they want to avoid bitches like you of which the West is full.

This explains the "inexplicable" responses your ignorant and blindly moralistic threads keep getting...

Jesus, what a f*cking uphill battle to have an intelligent, informed discussion on a complex topic!

Where are the intelligent and informed bits?

Reading the last threads you have been active in, you are just posting tons of ignorant crap which you are then miserably unable to back up.

[tracer5050]

are the workerd better off , can they eat feed the kids thai dads dont support. who is hurt, who is helped?

[endure]

This thread is a fine demonstration of the need for rule 1

"1) You will not use thaivisa.com to post any material which is knowingly or can be reasonably construed as false, defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, referencing prostitution (including bargirls and barboys), referencing suicide, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise in violation of any law."

It is closed.