Are Isaan Farmers 'poor'?

[roietjimmy]

Adults are sometimes answerable in part for their own poverty but children are not. Helping them is efficient and appropriate and I hope our fund raising for this project will be successful.

Andrew Hicks

I applaud your efforts and wish you success. The level of poverty in villages varies greatly from one village to the next. In your village, undernourished children indicate it is very poor. Supplementing their diets will contribute to the childrens ability to learn and receive an education which, as most agree in this OP, is the the springboard to breaking the cycle of poverty by giving them a foundation on which to make "intelligent choices". Based on their own observations of the behavior of some villagers many have commented on the futility of your efforts as a waste of time and money. I in no way dispute their observations as we have all seen cases of laziness, scams on the generous, drunkenness, and apathy. Others have commented, and I agree, that compared with others such as Burmese and Vietnamese, many Thais are not prone to making the most of the opportunity for an education. Why this is so I am not sure but it would make for an interesting post. I have highlighted "some" and "many" as even the most critical commenters would be hard pressed to claim all are included. There are numerous cases where the children of extremely poor Isaan villagers have broken out of the poverty cycle by way of education and have returned to help others get an education.

If I may add a word of advice regarding your "fund raising". First and foremost, engage the Thai business community. Having been involved in activities simular to what you are doing I have found there are many who able and willing to help. Talk to merchants in your Ampore to get them to contribute food, school uniforms or ??. Refrain as much as possible in asking for money as there is deep suspicion regarding money donations given the number of scams in the "charity" business.

Will all the children you are helping take advantage of the opportunity they are given? The answer is no, but if even a small percentage do, then it will be well worth the time and effort.

As a much wiser man than I said a couple of thousand years ago, "Good actions give strength to ourselves and inspire good actions in others."

[Maigo6]

It can be done remotely, or in evening/weekend courses. It does take determination and commitment, but is well within the financial means of even the poorest farmer. But we have covered that before.

Scenario.....Applicant for Job : I'm 30 years old, for the last 15 years I have been in a Village in Isaan looking after my Family, I have absolutely no experience at all with any type of work, but on the advice of a guy on an internet forum, I've tried my best to learn Chinese, Japanese and English, I have had no experience on computers as my village does not have telephone lines, but the guy on the internet seemed to think that this would be ok.

Idiot!!

[roietjimmy]

It can be done remotely, or in evening/weekend courses. It does take determination and commitment, but is well within the financial means of even the poorest farmer. But we have covered that before.

Scenario.....Applicant for Job : I'm 30 years old, for the last 15 years I have been in a Village in Isaan looking after my Family, I have absolutely no experience at all with any type of work, but on the advice of a guy on an internet forum, I've tried my best to learn Chinese, Japanese and English, I have had no experience on computers as my village does not have telephone lines, but the guy on the internet seemed to think that this would be ok.

Idiot!!

"I've tried my best to learn Chinese, Japanese and English" while learning to speak Thai.

[meemiathai]

It can be done remotely, or in evening/weekend courses. It does take determination and commitment, but is well within the financial means of even the poorest farmer. But we have covered that before.

Scenario.....Applicant for Job : I'm 30 years old, for the last 15 years I have been in a Village in Isaan looking after my Family, I have absolutely no experience at all with any type of work, but on the advice of a guy on an internet forum, I've tried my best to learn Chinese, Japanese and English, I have had no experience on computers as my village does not have telephone lines, but the guy on the internet seemed to think that this would be ok.

Idiot!!

Something I disagree with you maigo6 is how come you just quoted a small piece of his post.

The whole post was idiotic.

Mr jts-khorat, I will try to put it in the most polite way. I think it is either me or you that is living in Mars. Therefore it is just impossible for us to carry on the discussion. It is absolutely pointless. Thank you!

[jts-khorat]

Mr jts-khorat, I will try to put it in the most polite way. I think it is either me or you that is living in Mars. Therefore it is just impossible for us to carry on the discussion. It is absolutely pointless. Thank you!

from a different thread:

And for those who think money is important in a relationship, that is utter rubbish! If you are good-looking and young, dress yourself up like a beggar, you will still be hit on by every girl in the street!

Just as well (and again as I thought).

I at least would not have give up already on your sister in law, while you obviously have, with the sure knowledge that she will be unable to help herself. Quite a sad view you have of your own family.

Scenario.....Applicant for Job : I'm 30 years old, for the last 15 years I have been in a Village in Isaan looking after my Family, I have absolutely no experience at all with any type of work, but on the advice of a guy on an internet forum, I've tried my best to learn Chinese, Japanese and English, I have had no experience on computers as my village does not have telephone lines, but the guy on the internet seemed to think that this would be ok.

Good life choices start early. Bad life choices (like marrying a poor guy) are very difficult to fix later. No disagreement there. And I can tell you, with the high season coming to Phuket a lot of the big hotels would rather take a trustworthy 30 year old woman without work experience who speaks (more ore less) four languages than a 22 old without work experience who speaks just Thai and will be off to the bars at first chance after she got a hint of the money to be made.

Funny Maigo6 how you verbally say you disagree so storngly and then you actually strenghten my argument with your points constantly...

Edited September 15, 2007 by jts-khorat

[meemiathai]

I at least would not have give up already on your sister in law, while you obviously have,

FGS! I have given up discussing with you! Not the sister in law! Is that you in your avatar?

[meemiathai]

Good life choices start early

I think my sister in law made a critically wrong decision, that is to learn to speak thai instead of Japanese when she was 2.

[Heng]

In edition to having a high rate of savings.... a few good life decisions that don't involve taking language or technical courses: not taking up smoking, drinking, womanizing, gambling, until AFTER you can afford it (by affording it, meaning that your family will be just as comfortable -with more than enough permanent assets- if any of the aforementioned life choices kill you).

[meemiathai]

In edition to having a high rate of savings.... a few good life decisions that don't involve taking language or technical courses: not taking up smoking, drinking, womanizing, gambling, until AFTER you can afford it (by affording it, meaning that your family will be just as comfortable -with more than enough permanent assets- if any of the aforementioned life choices kill you).

Wow Isaan women are worse than I thought! They even womanize? I will tell my sister in law to stop those habits!

[jts-khorat]

I will tell my sister in law to stop those habits!

Yes, your sister in law should really listen to you when you give her advice... not

meemiathai, you are getting weirder and weirder... first you tell us you will not discuss it further, than immediately three posts in a row. Something really has irked you here a lot, maybe the feeling that somthing cannot be right when you are sitting in comfy Signapore living the good life and at the same time telling us how poor and from the hand to the mouth the sister of your own wife has to exist.

[meemiathai]

I will tell my sister in law to stop those habits!

Yes, your sister in law should really listen to you when you give her advice... not

meemiathai, you are getting weirder and weirder... first you tell us you will not discuss it further, than immediately three posts in a row. Something really has irked you here a lot, maybe the feeling that somthing cannot be right when you are sitting in comfy Signapore living the good life and at the same time telling us how poor and from the hand to the mouth the sister of your own wife has to exist.

Do you post when you are drunk?

What singapore are u talking about? I live in HK! And I said I am not discussing with you! Not saying I am not posting anymore!

You are doing it purposely, aren't you? Just to piss me off, right?

[Andrew Hicks]

Adults are sometimes answerable in part for their own poverty but children are not. Helping them is efficient and appropriate and I hope our fund raising for this project will be successful.

Andrew Hicks

I applaud your efforts and wish you success. The level of poverty in villages varies greatly from one village to the next. In your village, undernourished children indicate it is very poor. Supplementing their diets will contribute to the childrens ability to learn and receive an education which, as most agree in this OP, is the the springboard to breaking the cycle of poverty by giving them a foundation on which to make "intelligent choices". Based on their own observations of the behavior of some villagers many have commented on the futility of your efforts as a waste of time and money. I in no way dispute their observations as we have all seen cases of laziness, scams on the generous, drunkenness, and apathy. Others have commented, and I agree, that compared with others such as Burmese and Vietnamese, many Thais are not prone to making the most of the opportunity for an education. Why this is so I am not sure but it would make for an interesting post. I have highlighted "some" and "many" as even the most critical commenters would be hard pressed to claim all are included. There are numerous cases where the children of extremely poor Isaan villagers have broken out of the poverty cycle by way of education and have returned to help others get an education.

If I may add a word of advice regarding your "fund raising". First and foremost, engage the Thai business community. Having been involved in activities simular to what you are doing I have found there are many who able and willing to help. Talk to merchants in your Ampore to get them to contribute food, school uniforms or ??. Refrain as much as possible in asking for money as there is deep suspicion regarding money donations given the number of scams in the "charity" business.

Will all the children you are helping take advantage of the opportunity they are given? The answer is no, but if even a small percentage do, then it will be well worth the time and effort.

As a much wiser man than I said a couple of thousand years ago, "Good actions give strength to ourselves and inspire good actions in others."

New Post

Jimmy,

Thanks for all your thoughts and positive suggestions.

The ones on fund raising are particularly interesting. In fact our 'Adopt a Village School' scheme is planning widespread fund raising in Japan and America. As the co-ordinator of the first 'adoption', I'm not involved with this but it sounds ambitious.

The issue of helping kids to escape poverty raises issues of the purpose of education here. I'm not sure it should be the aim to help kids to escape the village and join the urban middle classes. There is a future here in the village and I think the philosophy of the school is directed towards that. The children are taught to be good members of their community and there's a school farm where they raise vegetable and chickens. It's a difficult balance... they need literacy and numeracy but the relevance of academic excellence is debateable.

In any event, good nutrition is essential for whatever they are going to do in life and that's why the bulk of the money we're putting into the school will initially go towards a lunch feeding programme. Now we need more funds!

Thanks again. As I said, we old carictures must stick together!

Andrew Hicks

[roietjimmy]

New Post

Jimmy,

Thanks for all your thoughts and positive suggestions.

The ones on fund raising are particularly interesting. In fact our 'Adopt a Village School' scheme is planning widespread fund raising in Japan and America. As the co-ordinator of the first 'adoption', I'm not involved with this but it sounds ambitious.

The issue of helping kids to escape poverty raises issues of the purpose of education here. I'm not sure it should be the aim to help kids to escape the village and join the urban middle classes. There is a future here in the village and I think the philosophy of the school is directed towards that. The children are taught to be good members of their community and there's a school farm where they raise vegetable and chickens. It's a difficult balance... they need literacy and numeracy but the relevance of academic excellence is debateable.

In any event, good nutrition is essential for whatever they are going to do in life and that's why the bulk of the money we're putting into the school will initially go towards a lunch feeding programme. Now we need more funds!

Thanks again. As I said, we old carictures must stick together!

Andrew Hicks

It sounds like the adopt a school scope is broader than I had assumed. I mentioned I was involved in a program several years ago to support village schools. The program was centered on bringing computer assets to the kids and was sponsored by a large Thai IT company. In a nutshell, the plan was to refurbish used computers, load them with computer based learning software focused on literacy and mathmatics, train the teachers on their use, and install them in village schools. Note, there was no intention of having internet access as it was impossible at the time given the infrastucture. We did a site survey in 30 village schools throughout the kingdom to assess feasibiliy. As we suspected, there were issues related to electrical power and the environment in which the computers were to be used (heat and humidity). We sorted out solutions to these issues. As part of the survey, we talked with the teachers to garner support for the program. Keeping in mind this was nearly 15 years ago, the vast majority were in favor of the idea but many had never seen a computer much less used one. We did however get unanimous support from the teachers.

The next step was to get permission from the Ministry of Education to run a pilot program. Here is where things started to go off track. The lower echelons within the MoE were quite supportive but as we moved on to higher levels suddenly we encounted all kinds of objections and roadblocks. Comments ranged from, "villagers are not ready for such a program" with strong implications they were too ignorant to use the computers to "the MoE has sole authority over the national curriculum and this program needs to be studied for compliance". The "study" in question would require funding of 10M baht and be funded by the Thai IT company! I don't think I have to expand further on this point. Of course at this point the CEO of the IT company opted to shut down the program.

So now to the point of my somewhat long winded explanation. No matter what you do within the realm of schools in Thailand, you will end up having to deal with the MoE and be faced with simular issues we encountered. The larger the program, the greater the number of "speedbumps" will be encountered. All of them will be motivated by the MoE asserting its "authority" over the most miniscule details of day to day school activities. Also in your case, there are political implications. Specifically, support from the MoE would be admitting Thailand has undernourished children and further, "outsiders" are alleviating the problem rather than the Thai government!

These issues can be mitigated by giving some thought to the packaging and promotion of the program. Get as much support as possible from Thai businesses to overcome the perception it is all "outsiders" behind the program. Keep the program objectives focused on supplementing diets and avoid the use of terms such as "undernourished". Last and probably most important, start discussion with MoE officials at the local/provincial level to assess the degree of resistance the program will encounter. The challenge is to get the MoE to "champion" the program by convincing them there is no threat to their authority, the program offers no politcal/career risk to MoE individuals (i.e. it is simple and will work).

It is infortunate but as in any country the simplest of good programs, intentions and ideas will at some point encounter a "bureaucratic" interference.

Edited September 16, 2007 by roietjimmy

[siamamerican]

Also, it is actually true that human brain capacity does allow that all our fellow brothers and sisters pretty much can learn all they want if they just feel enough commitment to the cause. My argument would be not going very far if your sister in law would be mentally retarded, but this discussion so far centered around healthy individuals.

Not everybody will become a rocket scientist, but this is not really needed here, is it -- and would still not be impossible, ignoring the bureaucratic and procedural hurdles in between fir the sake of this argument. Maybe a little more trust in the abilities of the Isaan farmers we are talking about here would be in order, they are by definition of being human just as capable as you and me -- or even Maigo6!

So indeed, she would be better off now if she would have studied hard when she was younger; as most likely would be you or me as well.

Nothing wrong actually to start RIGHT NOW if she was off to a slow start, it is never to late. This is not a competition with her peers, this is about her own life moving forward.

I do recognize that options in Thailand are very limited and in the West we are better off, so we might have been able to choose more freely what 'suits us'.

Your sister in law does not have that option, and all her choices obviously do not suit her. Being picky makes her a hard nut to crack. However, fighting her unlucky life circumstances is neither a beauty contest nor a fun game; I do say this without condescending intentions, really.

It is all up to her in the end and I am sure she has achieved things in her life that she is rather proud of, like a family, that might have taken up all the time she had.

Coming back to self-betterment, she has options, but she must choose what is more important for her.

And maybe, just maybe, what I just cannot believe might actually be true: there is the off chance that she is happy even though she is poor, or at least not unhappy enough to really do something about it to change as it would mean leaving her family, her known life and obviously her comfort sphere behind.

Trying to understand the rigid stance you've taken on this thread. No doubt, you are determined to rationalize your opinion that poor Thais are a product of the choices they made. Do you really think that it is that simple? The problem is their perceptions of the choices they made, is much different than yours.

Speaking from experience, sacrifices are part of achieving financial success. Many other factors also play a big role and you seem to ignore or briefly mention the impact family values, public education, national wealth, and other factors contribute to a Thais lot in life.

Who installs the value of education for young Thais that live in poor villages? Does the government do an adequate job providing a good education? How much impact do you the think the environment they are raised in impacts the people they become?

I agree that the only way to escape their dire financial situation is to do exactly what you have recommended throughout this thread ( learn English, study hard...). The problem is the choices we make are a product of who we are when that choice is made. Poor Thais, unlike myself, weren't taught the value of education by their parents and it's is difficult to come to that conclusion on your own when your surrounded by poor uneducated people.

As Forest Gump would put it, " poor is as poor does". The problem with poor Thais is that most don't know what choices to make to improve their financial status, but with time, I expect they will adapt and stop making bad financial decisions.

We all can give examples of extremely poor individuals that have beaten the odds and became wealthy, but doubt I could have done it. You're using these rare exceptions and applying it to poor Thais as a whole, which isn't realistic. When Thai society, including villagers, values education, more poor Thais will make the choices you've discussed. Until then, only a few will make those choices and climb out of poverty.

I agree with much of what you've said in this thread and am a strong proponent of hard work and making sacrifices to better oneself. Many Thais though don't understand the benefits of certain choices and their options are very limited.

Edited September 16, 2007 by siamamerican

[Andrew Hicks]

New Post

Jimmy,

Thanks for all your thoughts and positive suggestions.

The ones on fund raising are particularly interesting. In fact our 'Adopt a Village School' scheme is planning widespread fund raising in Japan and America. As the co-ordinator of the first 'adoption', I'm not involved with this but it sounds ambitious.

The issue of helping kids to escape poverty raises issues of the purpose of education here. I'm not sure it should be the aim to help kids to escape the village and join the urban middle classes. There is a future here in the village and I think the philosophy of the school is directed towards that. The children are taught to be good members of their community and there's a school farm where they raise vegetable and chickens. It's a difficult balance... they need literacy and numeracy but the relevance of academic excellence is debateable.

In any event, good nutrition is essential for whatever they are going to do in life and that's why the bulk of the money we're putting into the school will initially go towards a lunch feeding programme. Now we need more funds!

Thanks again. As I said, we old carictures must stick together!

Andrew Hicks

It sounds like the adopt a school scope is broader than I had assumed. I mentioned I was involved in a program several years ago to support village schools. The program was centered on bringing computer assets to the kids and was sponsored by a large Thai IT company. In a nutshell, the plan was to refurbish used computers, load them with computer based learning software focused on literacy and mathmatics, train the teachers on their use, and install them in village schools. Note, there was no intention of having internet access as it was impossible at the time given the infrastucture. We did a site survey in 30 village schools throughout the kingdom to assess feasibiliy. As we suspected, there were issues related to electrical power and the environment in which the computers were to be used (heat and humidity). We sorted out solutions to these issues. As part of the survey, we talked with the teachers to garner support for the program. Keeping in mind this was nearly 15 years ago, the vast majority were in favor of the idea but many had never seen a computer much less used one. We did however get unanimous support from the teachers.

The next step was to get permission from the Ministry of Education to run a pilot program. Here is where things started to go off track. The lower echelons within the MoE were quite supportive but as we moved on to higher levels suddenly we encounted all kinds of objections and roadblocks. Comments ranged from, "villagers are not ready for such a program" with strong implications they were too ignorant to use the computers to "the MoE has sole authority over the national curriculum and this program needs to be studied for compliance". The "study" in question would require funding of 10M baht and be funded by the Thai IT company! I don't think I have to expand further on this point. Of course at this point the CEO of the IT company opted to shut down the program.

So now to the point of my somewhat long winded explanation. No matter what you do within the realm of schools in Thailand, you will end up having to deal with the MoE and be faced with simular issues we encountered. The larger the program, the greater the number of "speedbumps" will be encountered. All of them will be motivated by the MoE asserting its "authority" over the most miniscule details of day to day school activities. Also in your case, there are political implications. Specifically, support from the MoE would be admitting Thailand has undernourished children and further, "outsiders" are alleviating the problem rather than the Thai government!

These issues can be mitigated by giving some thought to the packaging and promotion of the program. Get as much support as possible from Thai businesses to overcome the perception it is all "outsiders" behind the program. Keep the program objectives focused on supplementing diets and avoid the use of terms such as "undernourished". Last and probably most important, start discussion with MoE officials at the local/provincial level to assess the degree of resistance the program will encounter. The challenge is to get the MoE to "champion" the program by convincing them there is no threat to their authority, the program offers no politcal/career risk to MoE individuals (i.e. it is simple and will work).

It is infortunate but as in any country the simplest of good programs, intentions and ideas will at some point encounter a "bureaucratic" interference.

Again all very informative. Thanks for all that.

Interestingly the originator of the just emerging 'Adopt a Village School' programme is a Japanese IT specialist who does business with Thailand and his original thought was to do a computer scheme for schools similar yours. With a long email debate, we came back to more basic things such as a feeding programme.

I appreciate the sensitivity of all this. At the school level they are very positive but I have a contact at a high level that would enable me to speak to the Provincial governer if this thing grows.

Incidentally this village school has TOT IP Star internet and has been given five computers for the kids so it's not in a desperate state of under-development. One of the things we could do though is to pay for a computer person to come in and teach computer literacy. The current teachers are just too busy to make the most of the hardware.

Of course Thai officials should be worried about us characterising their schools as poverty stricken which they're not. The usual problem from Oxfam downwards of wanting to engage the sympathy of donors but not wanting to depict the beneficiaries as victims or offend them inevitably arises. On our website we have been careful not to overstate our case or to give offence. It's a lovely school with a lot going for it but the kids are small and the gap between this village and the industrialised world does justify some donations. I hope they'll come in!

Thanks again.

Andrew

[AA1]

Andrew and Jimmy,

I feel that your ideas are getting close to some of problems that Isaan children have.

Education gives children a chance to better themselves. Obviously it is no guarentee but does give them a this chance.

In my humble opinion, education is there most importantly to teach student to think.

When I was teaching Maths ' in English' to Thai boys in Bangkok, I used to stress that I wanted to see their workings for any problem I gave them. These to me were even more important than the answer. I could see 'How" the student thought and if the answer is wrong then show them where their thinking went wrong. They learn by their mistakes and can steadily improve.

After leaving school they get a job. No matter whether in an office, factory, building site or farm, if they don't think they will always stay at the bottom. If they think and learn then they have a chance (not guarenteed but a chance) to improve themselves. Yes, posters quote people with no education who have made fortunes BUT I guarentee that every one of them did so because they knew how to think and used this thought PLUS hard work.

Thailand does have 2 major problems.

Jimmy. You hit the first - the traditional belief about 'loosing face'. Thai children were taught NOT to question teachers as this is doubting them and so making them loose face. They ended up by being taaught to learn 'by rote'. NO thinking. Industry has changed and learnt to think BUT still the old fashioned conception still applies in the Government hierachy. If you bring in new ideas or help, you risk the officials feeling they are being challenged - not good!! Great tact is required. When I used to do business between England and Thailand and if I wanted anything done it was always a matter of turning it round so you could convince them that they were helping you NOT you challenging them!!

Andrew. I so agree with you that to help Isaan you need to start young and as well as other supplies such as books, food is one of the most basic needs for any child to start with.

An empty stomach at school leads to lethargy, boredom and a wandering mind.

A content stomach at school leads to energy, interest and a healthy mind.

Good luck to your scheme.

[jts-khorat]

Speaking from experience, sacrifices are part of achieving financial success. Many other factors also play a big role and you seem to ignore or briefly mention the impact family values, public education, national wealth, and other factors contribute to a Thais lot in life.

Thank you for the constructive post; I am aware that a good role model is already 50% of the success.

I briefly outlined that with my own example and my parents great guidance, who asked me kindly to work for a good part of my pocket money instead of looking on how I wasted it as many of my friends did. Some on this thread, instead of getting the message intended, slammed me for being an egotist.

But even so Thai village kids have actually pretty bad role models (drinkers, gamblers, motorcycle kids) and the loosing face issue makes peer pressure all that harder -- in the end we are responsible for our own luck. One has to start somewhere.

Then again, many Thais work extremely hard, extremely long hours and are extremely dedicated to their family (and if the Thais in your village suck, have a look at the Chinese rice merchant who will fleece them without mercy at every season instead).

So I am not really buying into the idea that there would be no good role models to be found for a clever kid just opening its eyes for a moment.

Hardest criticism so far I have heard that if you learn and work that hard, there will not be much time for fun; and indeed, I guess if you wish to get out of poverty in Isaan, kiss the idea that you will enjoy it goodbye.

All for #your# children, much like the generation of my own grandparents thought. I am extremely indebted to them for the sacrifices they made, because else I might be personally much worse off.

Right after World War II in Germany, completely bombed out, and with my grandfather having been at the front instead in school, they were actually not in much a different position than any farmer in Isaan today.

But again, talking about me, so much likely the superfluous readers here will not get the point I am making...