Condo Building "magically" Becomes "smaller"!

[thaigene2]

This is a condo that is just driving piles on pahontothin around the Ari (Aree) area. Actually it's more like Saphan Kwai, but whatever..it's a good area - esp since the new (first) zoning plan for BKK.

The CATCH!! Is that originally it was billed as an 18 floor 'lifestyle' thingy...Now it's only around 8 floors high!! Look at the advertizements around the Ari Skytrain Station!!

My God, what happened to all those who bought on the upper floors? Hey - they told me they were SOLD ALREADY! WHERE DID THEY GO???? Puff...thin air! Now that's really LITE!

He, he....

[trajan]

sorry but what do you mean? ap-life website still shows 19 floors of units with floorplans and unit plans (plus a 20th floor swimming pool and gardens & fitness zone).....

[thaigene2]

sorry but what do you mean? ap-life website still shows 19 floors of units with floorplans and unit plans (plus a 20th floor swimming pool and gardens & fitness zone).....

Yes - and I have their promotional/sales amterial in hand too. All I can tell you is what I saw at the BTS station - adverts with photos that the show the place only HALF as high as it is in the promos you and I have seen before!

[backflip]

"This is a condo that is just driving piles on pahontothin around the Ari (Aree) area. Actually it's more like Saphan Kwai, but whatever..it's a good area - esp since the new (first) zoning plan for BKK.

The CATCH!! Is that originally it was billed as an 18 floor 'lifestyle' thingy...Now it's only around 8 floors high!! Look at the advertizements around the Ari Skytrain Station!!"

Your post doesn't make any sense at all. You first claim that the building site activity is "driving piles" - which is done at the beginning of the construction process - and then you claim that the building is 8 stories tall. Which one is it?

[donx]

"This is a condo that is just driving piles on pahontothin around the Ari (Aree) area. Actually it's more like Saphan Kwai, but whatever..it's a good area - esp since the new (first) zoning plan for BKK.

The CATCH!! Is that originally it was billed as an 18 floor 'lifestyle' thingy...Now it's only around 8 floors high!! Look at the advertizements around the Ari Skytrain Station!!"

Your post doesn't make any sense at all. You first claim that the building site activity is "driving piles" - which is done at the beginning of the construction process - and then you claim that the building is 8 stories tall. Which one is it?

Though his post is a bit confusing I believe he is claiming that there are new advertizements around the Ari Skytrain Station that lead viewers to assume that the finished building (not the current state of the building) will only be 8 floors high as opposed to previous advertizements that show a finished building 18 floors high.

[steveromagnino]

"This is a condo that is just driving piles on pahontothin around the Ari (Aree) area. Actually it's more like Saphan Kwai, but whatever..it's a good area - esp since the new (first) zoning plan for BKK.

The CATCH!! Is that originally it was billed as an 18 floor 'lifestyle' thingy...Now it's only around 8 floors high!! Look at the advertizements around the Ari Skytrain Station!!"

Your post doesn't make any sense at all. You first claim that the building site activity is "driving piles" - which is done at the beginning of the construction process - and then you claim that the building is 8 stories tall. Which one is it?

Though his post is a bit confusing I believe he is claiming that there are new advertizements around the Ari Skytrain Station that lead viewers to assume that the finished building (not the current state of the building) will only be 8 floors high as opposed to previous advertizements that show a finished building 18 floors high.

I hope to goodness that this isn't the answer, but it might be. This is a branded development that is built in multiple locations.

Once they sell out one, they start sellin another; i htink they sold 3 of the same brand in different locations over a few months and sold out. In some cases, such as Ari, they sold out in about 3 weeks.

Is there ANY chance that the project they are now marketing is the same name...but different location? Specifically, is it the new Life building at Phahonyothin Soi 18?

If it is...then no mystery. Company books advertising space. Sells out faster than expected. Starts using same advertising space to advertise new project.

Hmmmmmmmm.

[quiksilva]

You say its just driving piles, so has construction actually finished?

Losing 10 floors would mean that they now have only ~50% of their sellable space, they wouldn't make much in the way of profits, it just wouldn't be feasible. So I can't imagine why this developer would want to shrink their building most complain that they can not make them bigger!

[steveromagnino]

You say its just driving piles, so has construction actually finished?

Losing 10 floors would mean that they now have only ~50% of their sellable space, they wouldn't make much in the way of profits, it just wouldn't be feasible. So I can't imagine why this developer would want to shrink their building most complain that they can not make them bigger!

Well, it is because I am 90% sure it is the same company, but a different development in the same neighbourhood; they already sold out why would they advertise it again and also why would a very professional company suddenly fail to get resource planning concent prior to taking a project to market.

Of course... it sounds a lot more stupid and less sensational saying it this way.

[trajan]

sorry but what do you mean? ap-life website still shows 19 floors of units with floorplans and unit plans (plus a 20th floor swimming pool and gardens & fitness zone).....

Yes - and I have their promotional/sales amterial in hand too. All I can tell you is what I saw at the BTS station - adverts with photos that the show the place only HALF as high as it is in the promos you and I have seen before!

oh OK I think I understand now ......thaigene, there are six separate Life Condo projects .....Life@Phahon-Ari (which is 20 floors) is easily confused with Life@Phahon 18(which is only 8 stories)........ I think it will be clear if you visit www.ap-life.com

the names are too similar, just like all the "Q Houses" dotted around Bangkok which confuse taxi drivers

Edited September 6, 2007 by trajan

[Heng]

The question is, why is the ThaiGene2 getting so excited? Did a condo developer touch him in an inappropriate way in the "show unit" ?

And what happened to ThaiGene1 ??!! Did he disappear into thin air?

Edited September 6, 2007 by Heng

[thaigene2]

sorry but what do you mean? ap-life website still shows 19 floors of units with floorplans and unit plans (plus a 20th floor swimming pool and gardens & fitness zone).....

Yes - and I have their promotional/sales amterial in hand too. All I can tell you is what I saw at the BTS station - adverts with photos that the show the place only HALF as high as it is in the promos you and I have seen before!

oh OK I think I understand now ......thaigene, there are six separate Life Condo projects .....Life@Phahon-Ari (which is 20 floors) is easily confused with Life@Phahon 18(which is only 8 stories)........ I think it will be clear if you visit www.ap-life.com

the names are too similar, just like all the "Q Houses" dotted around Bangkok which confuse taxi drivers

Yes I think that's right. It's same design - only half as high - that Pahon 18 location looks like the advert. (it was the advertizement I saw at a skytain stn..very near the AP Life building with the 18 floors - where they are just now doing foundation work - didn't even occur there would be TWO AP Life buildings within a few sois of each other). So yes - it's like the Qs (though none within a few blocks each other that I am aware of) also like all the Centre Points. taxis have no clue on them either..SO there ya go - humble pie.

[thaigene2]

Just one further point to the above( no not trying to change the subject), at some point, doesn't the supply of middle-class young people (who would actually earn enough money and not need mommy/daddy's money to buy) run out?

I mean is this just tapping into a trend of Thai kids moving away from the family compound or is it speculation to rent out in the future, or what? Cause if it is young Thais who are buying to live in (see the adverts that Trajan refers to) and they are trendy, smart, educated, but still only earning 25,000 Baht per month, where do they get the dosh to buy even a 35 sq mtr shoebox for 3 million baht?

Doesn't that road reach a dead end sooner than later in a place like Thailand?

[trajan]

Yes I think that's right. It's same design - only half as high - that Pahon 18 location looks like the advert. (it was the advertizement I saw at a skytain stn..very near the AP Life building with the 18 floors - where they are just now doing foundation work - didn't even occur there would be TWO AP Life buildings within a few sois of each other). So yes - it's like the Qs (though none within a few blocks each other that I am aware of) also like all the Centre Points. taxis have no clue on them either..SO there ya go - humble pie.

the concept is not too strange here...

Q House Lumpini is just a few buildings away from Q House Sathorn

Centrepoint Central Park is coming up just across the street from the existing Centrepoint Langsuan

[Heng]

Just one further point to the above( no not trying to change the subject), at some point, doesn't the supply of middle-class young people (who would actually earn enough money and not need mommy/daddy's money to buy) run out?

I mean is this just tapping into a trend of Thai kids moving away from the family compound or is it speculation to rent out in the future, or what? Cause if it is young Thais who are buying to live in (see the adverts that Trajan refers to) and they are trendy, smart, educated, but still only earning 25,000 Baht per month, where do they get the dosh to buy even a 35 sq mtr shoebox for 3 million baht?

Doesn't that road reach a dead end sooner than later in a place like Thailand?

That's an inquiry along the lines of Ijustwannateach's famous line "where the heck is the money coming from?" The local economy isn't made up of the poor and the elites, and I don't think any marketing plan is targeting kids that are using mommy and daddy's money... there are millions sandwiched in between, with too many occupations and financial setups to list. Some are paying cash, some are leveraging themselves up to their eyeballs. And they are certainly not running out of people yet anytime soon.

Edited September 7, 2007 by Heng

[backflip]

"The question is, why is the ThaiGene2 getting so excited? Did a condo developer touch him in an inappropriate way in the 'show unit' ?"

There was a glancing blow to the wallet, and thaigene2 is worried because "it" moved.

Edited September 7, 2007 by backflip

[donx]

"The question is, why is the ThaiGene2 getting so excited? Did a condo developer touch him in an inappropriate way in the 'show unit' ?"

There was a glancing blow to the wallet, and thaigene2 is worried because "it" moved.

[steveromagnino]

Hmmm. When will it run out.

25k is nothing; there are TONS of Thai people living in BKK that earn this amount; when you consider that many buy as a couple, hel_l even maids in shopping centres are not that far off combining income with someone to buy something; they are making say 8k a month. to be more precise, there were something like 1m Thais earning 70,000b household income or more 4 years ago (300,000 families); my guess is the potential market for a household income of say 25,000 would be in the millions; perhaps as high as 4 million people (total guess, but probably not far out).

Now...where you got 3m baht from goodness knows. Starting price of many AP Life projects is 30sq m studio, 50,000b per square metre or less = 1.5m baht.

The deposit is a bit of a stretch, but being that cost of rental is not that high, financed over say 20 years, the repayments for a condo are something like 6-8,000b a month; comparable to the cost of rent that many are paying NOW. In addition, developments like this mean no need for a car, just BTS it. So...they could be financially better off buying rather than renting in a location where they need a car.

The majority of buyers are young professionals, like all the secretaries, accounting clerks, etc that fill up my clients' offices - mostly earning abotu 12-15k as graduates, and then reaching something like 18-40k within a couple of years; 15-18k individual income would be enough to buy a small studio at one of these developements; typically a bank does not like to see more than 35% of disposable income going to a mortgage (that's right, I set up a bank, I am familar with the basics) but in this case of someone younger and with a finance company linked to the development and with an owner occupier in a new building, it can be bumped up a bit.

The squeeze at the moment in the next rung up, and anything where a car is required, which gets the person back to car repayments of a similar 6-8000b a month. Lots of people I know living in the Pahonyothin area can survive without a car and do just fine; condo is an asset, car is a rapidly deprecating asset/liabiilty of sorts.

[thaigene2]

Hmmm. When will it run out.

25k is nothing; there are TONS of Thai people living in BKK that earn this amount; when you consider that many buy as a couple, hel_l even maids in shopping centres are not that far off combining income with someone to buy something; they are making say 8k a month. to be more precise, there were something like 1m Thais earning 70,000b household income or more 4 years ago (300,000 families); my guess is the potential market for a household income of say 25,000 would be in the millions; perhaps as high as 4 million people (total guess, but probably not far out).

Now...where you got 3m baht from goodness knows. Starting price of many AP Life projects is 30sq m studio, 50,000b per square metre or less = 1.5m baht.

The deposit is a bit of a stretch, but being that cost of rental is not that high, financed over say 20 years, the repayments for a condo are something like 6-8,000b a month; comparable to the cost of rent that many are paying NOW. In addition, developments like this mean no need for a car, just BTS it. So...they could be financially better off buying rather than renting in a location where they need a car.

The majority of buyers are young professionals, like all the secretaries, accounting clerks, etc that fill up my clients' offices - mostly earning abotu 12-15k as graduates, and then reaching something like 18-40k within a couple of years; 15-18k individual income would be enough to buy a small studio at one of these developements; typically a bank does not like to see more than 35% of disposable income going to a mortgage (that's right, I set up a bank, I am familar with the basics) but in this case of someone younger and with a finance company linked to the development and with an owner occupier in a new building, it can be bumped up a bit.

The squeeze at the moment in the next rung up, and anything where a car is required, which gets the person back to car repayments of a similar 6-8000b a month. Lots of people I know living in the Pahonyothin area can survive without a car and do just fine; condo is an asset, car is a rapidly deprecating asset/liabiilty of sorts.

I'd tend to agree with much of what both you and Heng (above) say. But I'm not sure where you get this big number of middle-class thais with a double-digit Baht income per month. It seems to me (from a pretty close observation - but maybe you know better), that a young Thai couple - both with a regular-under-grad degree (bachelor for US) aren't earning much more than 12,000 baht per month each ( so even in Western style of dual-earning qualification) the banks are looking at a combined income of 24,000 baht/month or a total of less than 300,000 baht per year. I'd agree with the 35% scenario. In Europe and North America - both places where I've owned property - the basic rule works out to '3-times' annual income (in UK they were recently giving 3.5 times for a couple). Just look at the Bangkok Post Classifieds for evidence of salaraies for educated young Thais - they often advertise the salaries of 6-10,000 b/month as an INCENTIVE - and they need to speak english!

So if we used that 3.5 earnings formula (as I said almost also exactly the same in US/Canada) it means the MAXIMUM mortgage they could get (no car loans or other debts remember!) would be just over 1 million baht. If "they" - presumably no kids nor plans for one - have 35% down, that means they can buy a place for less than 1.5 million - a studio of probably 30m/sq.

To me the numbers of those double-income couples, versus the number that would leave the family compounds, versus the numbers that would want to put their money into a studio condo when they are married - rather than a house where they can start a family, just doesn't add up to the "condo" - "I Am Free" exuberance.

It's also worth pointing out that those with that level of education and income probably aren't used to living in some little studio where they have to iron their own clothes and wash their own dishes! So don't compare the maid on 8,000 baht - these are completely different people - unless you are suggesting a sub-prime scenario playing out here too..! Are you??

Edited September 12, 2007 by thaigene2

[Heng]

I'd tend to agree with much of what both you and Heng (above) say. But I'm not sure where you get this big number of middle-class thais with a double-digit Baht income per month. It seems to me (from a pretty close observation - but maybe you know better), that a young Thai couple - both with a regular-under-grad degree (bachelor for US) aren't earning much more than 12,000 baht per month each ( so even in Western style of dual-earning qualification) the banks are looking at a combined income of 24,000 baht/month or a total of less than 300,000 baht per year.

It's also worth pointing out that those with that level of education and income probably aren't used to living in some little studio where they have to iron their own clothes and wash their own dishes!

Well, that's the thing with these discussions, Gene. It's largely a matter of opinion. In my opinion, some folks on this forum underestimate the number of middle class and instead tend to divide locals into the "elite" and the poor, which is a fairly unclear and broad enough of a generalization. They don't take (and it's understandable, it can be an alien concept depending on your background) accumulation of wealth over the generations, the lack of an effective tax collection system, and the economics of the cohesive family unit. For an example of the latter, someone living in the family home might only be making 20,000 Baht a month (even myself, at one point was making not much more than that; but because of the economics of combined family life, I've been able to turn that into XX times that), but he/she would often be doing so nearly COST free, freeing up capital so to speak to invest in other ventures. Now, not everyone does this and certainly not everyone is an entrepreneur, let's say if even 95% do NOT attempt or fail (along with the popular "90% of new businesses fail" rate), that minority 5% would be hundreds of thousands of people. And those people don't suddenly break culture and run away from their family units when they are financially independent. Their increase of wealth typically creates a synergy and opportunity for a few to dozens of other family members as well, who add to the cycle (this might be opposite to many foreigner's opinions because they are used to being the only "success" in the family... which likely results in a bitter, angry, negative synergy as far as finances go). Now I'm not saying it's some kind of economic miracle, but it's something often overlooked when people take some average income figure quoted from a fact book, tourist guide, or report and automatically draw a black and white conclusion from it.

[MaiChai]

Getting back to topic. I have lived in Sapan Kwai for 2 years now, and that condo they have just completed in Pradipat Road looks awful. What I mean is it has too many stories and is way too big. It reminds me of the council tower blocks they built in the UK in the 60's and 70's; these had too many people living in a small space and lead to all sorts of social problems such that no one wants to live in them now. So maybe that is why they have dropped the number of stories for new developements? Not to mention all upping of water/power/sewerage they have had to do in Pradipat Road for this new condo (and the distruptions this has caused). This is just real estate greed at its worse.

Packing so many people into such a small space (and selling them as 'exclusive modern living'!) in a place like Thailand where safety is not a high priority is asking for trouble. Would you want to live in this kind of development?