Forum turned upside down?

[Goshawk]

Not a post that would change the world i admit, but it's baffled me for years as to why it always seems to be Chiangmai and not Chiengmai

The way it is written in english is not the way it is correctly pronounced in Thai.

Phonetically, Chieng (be it mai or rai) is the more accurate or proper way to represent it within the written english language

[jumnien]

Usually, English speakers write the capital of France as "Paris" though you are correct that Paree would be phonetically far more correct. I don't think it will catch on though.

[Goshawk]

quite a few pre 70's & 60's books that reference Chiangmai, correctly spell it as Chiengmai (chiengrai too)

[miltonbentley]

The Gymkhana Club uses Chiengmai.

Apparently both are acceptable although Chiang Mai in 2 words is curreb=ntly the most accepted and used form

[Sao Jiang Mai]

The Royal Institute, www.royin.go.th, which is the definitive resource on how to spell Thai words in English, says that Chiang Mai is to be spelt as two words and with capital C and capital M. Chiengmai as in the Gymkhana Club and the Lady Mayor, is spent Chiengmai, as that was what how they spelt it in those days. Chiangmai is not an option. It is like spelling Newyork, Kualalumpur and Hochiminh City. I am not being difficault about this but do feel that the spelling of a city should be spelt in one way.

[miltonbentley]

I am not being difficault about this but do feel that the spelling of a city should be spelt in one way.

Wholeheartedly agree

[Goshawk]

My point is that Chieng more accurately describes the voiced sound as spoken by any Thai, rather than Chiang

emphasis on the 'e' and not the 'a'

[meadish_sweetball]

Your point is correct, but that vowel in Thai is transcribed as 'ia' according to the RTGS which governs the romanization of place names (or is supposed to do so at any rate; it is far from 100% consistently applied).

In super-correct slow speech, the vowel comes out more like 'ee-ah' too, only not so in normal speech. The stress of the vowel glide is on the first part, so the second becomes a bit of a non-vowel.

It makes sense to separate the words as they are not borrowed from a language that writes compounds together.

Both 'chiang' and 'mai' are original Thai words, unlike 'krung' and 'theep' as in the name of Bangkok (which is seldom written 'Krung thep' 'Groongthayp' 'Groung Theip' etc. anyway).

The Germans called it Tschiengmaj or somesuch I believe. Makes good sense if you are used to reading German.

But there are so many examples of discrepancies in spelling it hardly matters - how about Worcester, Leicester, Edinburgh?

And hau abaut we staat to rait Ing-glish moh laik it saundz too? Woodnt thaet be nais?

[realthaideal]

This gets onto a whole string of silly spelling interpretations. I agree with the 'Chieng' as this reflects the reality much better. But I take even more issue with words that are used day in and day out that are misspelled and then lead to untold numbers of misunderstandings when Farang speak to Thai. Great example, the word Jedi (jehdee) is not pronounced chedi in Thai, and no Thai will know what a chedi is, whether you're asking about the stupa at the wat, or the big new hotel that opened along the river. It's the Jedi. But anyway....If I went on, the list would get too big and of course this sort of thing is addressed a million times in the Thai lang thread already.

Note also, that in Lanna the city is referred to as Jieng Mai, and I've seen it spelled it that way on the New Year's greetings billboards posted out at the ring road intersections. There you go, two ideas tied into one for ye.

[Sanpatong]

Oh cool, a transliteration topic. I'll get some beers from the fridge and watch the show.

Note: 100 years ago 'Chieng' was most commonly used in English. You still see this at for example the 'Chieng Mai Gymkhana Club' spelling. However a more common standard for the 'ia' vowel in Thai is indeed 'ia' and not 'ie'.

[oddief1]

Spelling popularity check by Google search results

"chiang mai" - 2,960,000

chiangmai - 2,750,000

chiengmai - 77,000

"chieng mai" - 31,800

[dithprom]

Very interesting post Goshawk. The english spelling of thai words has quite often amazed me( alook at the street spelling translations anywhere will quickly confirm this). As i can read and write Thai quite well, I am constantly wondering who it was that they decided to employ to translate words into english.

Some of the differences will come down to the different way things are pronounced between the different languages that use our "roman" phonetics, ie a french person translating a thai word may not spell it phonetically the same as an english person. (A lot of people assume that the translations are into english, but going way back france had a huge influence in thailand).

But that aside, I think that most of the spelling errors have been made by thai translators who weren't all that competent.........one very noteable example would be the word "football" which has become footbon in thai. I am almost certain the reason for this is because the intial translation was incorrect. For anyone who studies the thai language they will be awae that the " L" sound "Lor Ling (ล)" when written at the end of a word becomes a "N" sound. The translator should have followd the Lor Ling (ล) with another Lor Ling and gahrun (ล์)... this would of enabled the word to end in a "L" sound and we wouldn't be hearing thai's talk about "footbon" all the time!!!!

Reagrding the the OP's thoughts on Chieng Mai vs Chiang Mai, I would translate the Thai script as falling maybe in the middle of the two sounds....not quite a Chi-eng Mai and not quite a Chi-ang mai. Maybe another way to spell it could be Chiung Mai as to my mind it is more of a "rung,sung,hung" sound than a "eng" or an "ang" sound.

Anyhow, these are just my thoughts as an old weary traveller (now fianlly living) on these shores

[Johpa]

Some of pre-20th century travelogues would spell it Xiang Mai, or some other variant beginning with an /x/. Also I think in Shan and maybe also in Lao, as well as in common Mong, it is pronounced as Shiang Mai.

[Priceless]

The english spelling of thai words has quite often amazed me (a look at the street spelling translations anywhere will quickly confirm this).

Not being a native English speaker, I must add that the English spelling of English words has often amazed me.

A case in point:

Phased introduction of a pan-european standard for end-user communication

Having chosen English as the preferred language in the European Union, the European Parliament has commissioned a feasibility study into ways of improving efficiency in communications between government agencies.

European officials have often pointed out that English spelling is unnecessarily difficult; for example: cough, plough, rough, through and thorough. What is clearly needed is a phased program of changes to iron out these anomalies. The program would, of course, be administered by a committee staffed at top level by participating nations.

In the first year, for example, the committee would suggest using “s” instead of the soft “c”. Sertainly, sivil servants in all sities would resieve this news with joy. Then the hard “c” could be replased by “k” sinse both letters are pronounced alike. Not only would this klear up konfusion in the minds of klerikal workers, but typewriters and komputer keyboards kould be made with one letter fewer.

There would be growing enthusiasm when in the second year, it was announced that the troublesome “ph” would henceforth be written “f”. This would make words like “fotograf” 20% shorter in print.

In the third year public akseptance of the new spelling kould be expected to reatsh the stage where more komplikated tshanges are possible. Governments would encourage the removal of double letters, whitsh have always been a deterent to akurate speling.

We would al agre that the horible mes of silent “e”s in the languag is disgrasful. Therfor we kould drop thez and kontinu to read and writ az though nothing had hapend. By this tim it would be four yearz sins the skem began, and peopl would be reseptiv to steps sutsh as replasing “th” with “z”. Perhaps zen ze function of “w” kould be taken on by “v”, vitsh iz, after al, half a “w”. Shortly after zis, ze unesesary “o” kuld be droped from vords containing “ou”. Similar arguments vud of kors be aplid to ozer kombinations of leters.

Kontinuing zis proses yer after yer, ve vud eventuale have a rele sensibl riten styl. After 20 yerz zer vud be no mor trublsm difikultiz and evrivun vud find it eze to understand etsh ozer. Ze dremz of Mr. Orvel vud finale hav kum tru.

(Source unknown)

/Priceless

[meadish_sweetball]

For anyone who studies the thai language they will be awae that the " L" sound "Lor Ling (ล)" when written at the end of a word becomes a "N" sound. The translator should have followd the Lor Ling (ล) with another Lor Ling and gahrun (ล์)... this would of enabled the word to end in a "L" sound and we wouldn't be hearing thai's talk about "footbon" all the time!!!!

The thing is, even with that spelling an /l/ final cannot be forced because Thai simply does not have the possibility of an /l/ phoneme in final position - regardless of how you write it.

Some educated Thais will learn to pronounce English well, some substitute a /w/ sound like in Estuarine English instead of the more commonly heard /n/.

This /w/ is not standard pronunciation but still an acceptable pronunciation used by native English speakers of that dialect.

But in the Thai context, the word could not have become something that is not supported by the inherent pronunciation rules, and that is very difficult to say for perhaps 90% of the population.

It's actually a natural process and inevitable that loan words are pronounced differently from what they sound like in the original language.

In the above sentence, I used at least 6 loan words of Latin/French origin - 'natural' 'process' 'inevitable' 'differently' 'original' and 'language'.

They are considered normal English words today and pronounced according to English rules, not according to how they originally sounded in Latin or French, although I am sure some of the French/Normand conquerors complained about and ridiculed the English farmers for butchering their language back in the day.

It's the same thing with words that are borrowed into Thai. We'll just have to live with that loan words are pronounced according to Thai when they speak Thai - that Thais should learn the correct pronunciation when they speak English is another matter.

[realthaideal]

See San Patong, how you gonna poo-poo a fun thread like this one ? Werd nerds can't get enough of it. It's edjikashunal (sp?) and good for the whole family.

[Goshawk]

I remember standing behind a fellow westerner (he was American i think) in a queue at the Thai Airways ticket office in Don Muang some time ago. Observing, the exchange went something along the lines of :

Western Guy - one way to 'chang my'

Thai Lady - alai na.. solly ?

Western Guy - 'chang my'

Thai Lady - [blank stare]

Western Guy - 'c h a n g m y'

at this point i managed to fleetingly lock on to her playfully sparking eye as she paused, looked back at this other guy and...

Thai Lady - you want to go to chieng mai ?

Western Guy - that's what i said, 'chang my'

as it came to my turn i graciously offered her, 'same place as that guy please'

she beamed, and i grinned, as she bravely attempted " chang my ? "

she loved it..

[JimsKnight]

its chiang mai or chieng mai, depending on your vernacular preference.

But officially it's Chiang Mai.