Should Cm Be Designated As Highly Polluted ...

[MyPenRye]

I received this message in my RRS feed program designating the ten 'most polluted places in the world' according to http://www.blacksmithinstitute.org.

Searches on the site found just a couple of places in Thailand being monitored or indicated as problematic, but not Chiang Mai (and its region).

Maybe Chiang Mai does not deserve any notifications, comments, or nominations, but considering the number of posts during the 2 months of smoke that CM gets and the number of people wearing filtering contraptions when driving or installing filtering mechanisms in their homes to mitigate the impact of the pollution, it does indicate there are issues.

So, should Chiang Mai (and the region affected outside of CM) be nominated (click on "nominated" to do so) as a badly polluted city/region (considering the 2 months and the ambiant air pollution resulting from traffic)? This might be an indirect way to put pressure on the government to protect its citizens and tourists (and tourism dollars). I guess the more people nominating a place, the more likely it might be looked at as such. I would think that there are more people on this site that will have hard facts to substantiate this claim. I have read that Chiang Mai has one fo the highest incidence of lung cancer in the world. Is that true? Or is that in Thailand? What about the use of asbestos? I have read in TV that Canada (which has banned its use) is a major exportor of asbestos in the world and in Thailand. Should not this issue be brought to light as well?

Please forward to Thai papers to mobilize concerned citizens behind this. While I love in general ... Chiang Mai, its citizens, and Thai culture, and while I know that I am just a visitor here, I also think that Thai people might feel a need to put pressure on their local and national governments to offer solutions for this issue. I am also contributing to Thailand's wealth by staying here, so maybe I (and expats, all the more) are entitled to --at least-- voice their opinion on such a subject and contribute to the betterment of this wonderful city (minus the pollution).

Should we include noise pollution of tuk-tuks and ineffective exhausts of regular scotters ... AND the dogs howling at 3 a.m. too or am I overtstating my case?

[Maejo Man]

So, should Chiang Mai (and the region affected outside of CM) be nominated (click on "nominated" to do so) as a badly polluted city/region (considering the 2 months and the ambiant air pollution resulting from traffic)? concerned citizens behind this.

Having seen the nomination form, there would be only a few people here qualified to submit a nomination, so I really don't see your point of mentioning it...

[MyPenRye]

So, should Chiang Mai (and the region affected outside of CM) be nominated (click on "nominated" to do so) as a badly polluted city/region (considering the 2 months and the ambiant air pollution resulting from traffic)? concerned citizens behind this.

Having seen the nomination form, there would be only a few people here qualified to submit a nomination, so I really don't see your point of mentioning it...

1) Methinks a few people suffices! No?

2) Assuming that you are right that there are only a few people that are qualified (a big assumption to be sure), it is likely that there will be some people who are NOT qualified who might know people who are (Thai or foreigners). Right?

3) How can you make such an assumption?

4) What are your credentials to make such an assumption?

5) What is your constructive solution to resolve or affect this problem?

Have a nice day!

Edited September 16, 2007 by MyPenRye

[mcgriffith]

On a lighter note..... .....Chiang Mai is an absolute miasma of pestilence.......flying beetles the size of birds, Thai Air Force fighter planes flying overhead at 10:30 AM, those dang songthiews everywhere belching black smoke, etc.

And I have noticed QUITE A FEW inquiries recently from poor dear innocents from afar, who seek info on housing, rentals, etc.

I have just one piece of advice for these good people- RUN FOR YOUR LIVES! Under NO CIRCUMSTANCES MOVE HERE!

You are taking your lives into your hands; save yourselves and move to Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania instead.

(Hey, how 'bout them Steelers? )

McG

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

It's a lot dirtier than it needs to be but its not industrial pollution. China last time I heard has something like 260 of the 300 worst polluted cities in the world. I don't think any city in Thailand even made the list.

[lannarebirth]

I wonder if heaven is polluted? Seriously, have you ever been to a polluted city? Mexico City, Kaoshiung, Beijing? Chiang Mai is a tropical paradise, that for two months per year is subject to poor elective burning practices in the region by forestry and agricultural interests. I never even noticed that, save for one week in this year. Still, at my loca level, my girlfriend and I got positive response and action from our Khumnan to stop burning. Maybe you should do the same.

[highonthai]

If you want everthing just like back home, stay there...

[catch22]

highonthai - this sort of statement by you REALLY IS boring and it has been said a thousand times...much more eloquently!! What's wrong with criticism, some would like to see an improvement in air quality. Not everyone lives their lives in smoke filled rooms or hanging out at smoke filled katoey karaoke pits, which you probably do.

[fruittbatt]

The comparative world/city status of Chiang Mai's pollutedness seems less relevant than the question of what we can do to help clean up the air.

As Lannarebirth has said, doing everything in our power to prevent burning of rubbish is a start. One woman I know explains in Thai the dangers of rubbish burning and suggests alternative means of disposal to her neighbours and others....resulting in less burning.

Boycotting tuktuks seems to be another alternative. IMHO the tuks belch more fumes than songthaews and are noise-pollutants also. People slam songthaews, and it is true there are some sad wrecks plying the roads every day, but at least they have the capacity to carry more passengers, so are potentially more energy-efficient as transport than tuks.

Lately I have noticed that when I visit Tha Pae Rd, Night Bazaar area, my eyes always smart and my throat gets very tight and sore. The high volume of traffic on relatively narrow streets seems a real issue here. The idea of turning Chang Klan into a walking street at night between eg 7 and 10.30pm seems to make good sense.

I wonder whether there is any "urban plan" to deal with the problems of traffic and domestic pollution in CM? Would any of the wise old CM hands care to enlighten the rest of us about what has been done previously?

[Sanpatong]

Should Cm Be Designated As Highly Polluted ..., ... on this anti-pollution website?

no.

[miltonbentley]

Outside the burning months the pollution here is not bad and in the winter the air is usually very clear and fresh. The air quality compares favourably with many Asian cities most of the time. Burning is an issue across the region - look at how Indonesian practices effect Singapore and Malaysia. Yes things could be better but that is true about most aspects of life anywhere in the world.

The more people bang on about how polluted CM is the less people are likely to visit and the harder it is for people, both Thai and farang to stay in business. This harms and damages Chiang Mai so stop bleating on about it.

[WaiWai]

The more people bang on about how polluted CM is the less people are likely to visit and the harder it is for people, both Thai and farang to stay in business. This harms and damages Chiang Mai so stop bleating on about it.

Sorry; absolutely cannot agree with that argument.

I think we should talk about the issue and find solutions as soon as possible. If talking about it upsets businesses & others enough to take action/get action taken, good ! The burning-off is completely unnecessary. Pollution from road vehicles will only get worse as CM grows so the sooner a plan for mass public transport is forumulated, the better.

[Maejo Man]

1) Methinks a few people suffices! No?

Probably not

2) Assuming that you are right that there are only a few people that are qualified (a big assumption to be sure), it is likely that there will be some people who are NOT qualified who might know people who are (Thai or foreigners). Right?

You only have to read the form! Do you qualify to nominate? i.e. Own a company, have a prominent website, have access to exact levels and types of toxins present. All required before you can nominate it would seem

3) How can you make such an assumption?

See above

4) What are your credentials to make such an assumption?

A qualified environmental engineer and ISA member

5) What is your constructive solution to resolve or affect this problem?

Education of the people causing the problems

You have a nice day too

Have a nice day!

[fruittbatt]

Outside the burning months the pollution here is not bad and in the winter the air is usually very clear and fresh.

In the most heavily touristed areas the air quality is always poor due to exhaust fumes

The air quality compares favourably with many Asian cities most of the time.

that claim is not substantiated nor is it a recommendation in itself

Burning is an issue across the region - look at how Indonesian practices effect Singapore and Malaysia. Yes things could be better but that is true about most aspects of life anywhere in the world.

The more people bang on about how polluted CM is the less people are likely to visit and the harder it is for people, both Thai and farang to stay in business. This harms and damages Chiang Mai so stop bleating on about it.

the greater the pollution, the less attractive the city is to both residents and tourists, surely? I can't see how keeping our heads firmly jammed in the sand or other unsayable places will help business or the environment. It is in the interests of businesses to lead any clean-up campaign!

[miltonbentley]

Outside the burning months the pollution here is not bad and in the winter the air is usually very clear and fresh.

In the most heavily touristed areas the air quality is always poor due to exhaust fumes

This could be said about any city anywhere.

The air quality compares favourably with many Asian cities most of the time.

that claim is not substantiated nor is it a recommendation in itself

I suggest a trip to any city in China, Hong Kong, Taipei, Manila, KL, Bangkok Jakarta etc etc. And while it is not a recommendation in itself it is a recognition of the reality in any developing country.

Burning is an issue across the region - look at how Indonesian practices effect Singapore and Malaysia. Yes things could be better but that is true about most aspects of life anywhere in the world.

The more people bang on about how polluted CM is the less people are likely to visit and the harder it is for people, both Thai and farang to stay in business. This harms and damages Chiang Mai so stop bleating on about it.

the greater the pollution, the less attractive the city is to both residents and tourists, surely? I can't see how keeping our heads firmly jammed in the sand or other unsayable places will help business or the environment. It is in the interests of businesses to lead any clean-up campaign!

While it may be true that cleaner air is more attractive to both tourists and residents it should be remembered that foreigners are guests in Thailand and the vast majority of Thai people find it offensive (rightfully IMHO) for guests to start publicly telling them how to run their affairs. That includes lambasting the situation on an internet forum.

The authorities are quite aware of this multi faceted, cross border and complex problem and I have no doubt they are working at addressing it. Foreign guests barking at government does nothing to help and quiet diplomacy will prove more effective in helping them.

Sorry for the use of bold which was solely for the purposes of allowing people to see my response.

[H2oDunc]

Outside the burning months the pollution here is not bad and in the winter the air is usually very clear and fresh.

In the most heavily touristed areas the air quality is always poor due to exhaust fumes

This could be said about any city anywhere.

The air quality compares favourably with many Asian cities most of the time.

that claim is not substantiated nor is it a recommendation in itself

I suggest a trip to any city in China, Hong Kong, Taipei, Manila, KL, Bangkok Jakarta etc etc. And while it is not a recommendation in itself it is a recognition of the reality in any developing country.

Burning is an issue across the region - look at how Indonesian practices effect Singapore and Malaysia. Yes things could be better but that is true about most aspects of life anywhere in the world.

The more people bang on about how polluted CM is the less people are likely to visit and the harder it is for people, both Thai and farang to stay in business. This harms and damages Chiang Mai so stop bleating on about it.

the greater the pollution, the less attractive the city is to both residents and tourists, surely? I can't see how keeping our heads firmly jammed in the sand or other unsayable places will help business or the environment. It is in the interests of businesses to lead any clean-up campaign!

While it may be true that cleaner air is more attractive to both tourists and residents it should be remembered that foreigners are guests in Thailand and the vast majority of Thai people find it offensive (rightfully IMHO) for guests to start publicly telling them how to run their affairs. That includes lambasting the situation on an internet forum.

The authorities are quite aware of this multi faceted, cross border and complex problem and I have no doubt they are working at addressing it. Foreign guests barking at government does nothing to help and quiet diplomacy will prove more effective in helping them.

Sorry for the use of bold which was solely for the purposes of allowing people to see my response.

I would have to disagree that the majority of Thais find it offensive for people to try and educate them about reducing poloution ,after all its their country that people are trying to save. The vast majority of Thais Ive spoken to agree that Thais have to start to look after their country because if they dont Tourists WILL go elsewhere. On the topic of CM, the last time I was there I thought the air was horrendous. I had to drive out of town around 15km before it became better. I personally would not want to spend a lot of time there but thats just my opinion.

[WaiWai]

the vast majority of Thai people find it offensive (rightfully IMHO) for guests to start publicly telling them how to run their affairs

I can't say this is an attitude I have encountered, with respect to air pollution.

Pollution is a world problem & every one of us should be doing what we can to clean up our own backyard, wherever it may be.

I think that short-term negative attention could bring quite distinct long-term benefits for CM.

Edited September 17, 2007 by WaiWai

[chiang mai]

I can't comment usefully on the air quality in CM during most of the year but during the burning season it is absolutely lethal. Last years burning season February through April would have been one of the most notorious on record and visibility was limited to a few hundred feet in many places. Airports were closed, the death rate from heart attack and respiratory failure soared and many local folks escaped to Bangkok for fresher air! Can't say that it's one of the worst places on the planet (with the exception of the burning season when it surely is) but it is definitely a major problem that needs to be dealt with. Incidentally, the latter is the sole reason I moved to live in Phuket this year.

[miltonbentley]

I would have to disagree that the majority of Thais find it offensive for people to try and educate them about reducing poloution

I never used the word educate. The phrase I used was

for guests to start publicly telling them how to run their affairs

.

I have no problem with education and this would be well covered by the

quiet diplomacy

that I advocated. I doubt very much that many Thais will be educated by yet another negative thread on Thai Visa on this issue.

If anyone would like to put forward a reasoned study of the causes, effects and possible solutions to the problem of air quality in Chiang Mai I am sure it will welcomed by both academia and the authorities.

I think that short-term negative attention could bring quite distinct long-term benefits for CM.

I think the many local people whose livelihoods were adversely affected by the worldwide negative publicity earlier this year would disagree. I don't deny there is an issue but to propose negative attention of the problem can only harm Chiang Mai and will not solve the problem.

If you think you can educate people then go into the community, the universities and schools and talk about the problem and propose workable, affordable practical solutions but stop whining about it on here.

[WaiWai]

I don't deny there is an issue but to propose negative attention of the problem can only harm Chiang Mai and will not solve the problem.

Without the national & international attention, and especially the impact on the economy (which does get people's attention) it seems unlikely anything much would change.

Also, tourists deserve to know the conditions they should expect at certain times of the year.

[Cyberstar]

Below is yesterdays air quality index for various sites in Thailand. It may be noticed that Chiang Mai is doing pretty well, despite it is the second largest city in Thailand and one thus should expect some pollution from traffic and such. The table and graph shows a typical picture of the situation outside of the 3-5 bad weeks every spring. I remember I posted the graph for the day before the day of the first rain in 5 months in early April - already that graph showed a similar picture.

Besides keeping in mind that the bad air truly is confined to those few weeks it would also be good to keep in mind that you can't really blame Chiang Mai for the pollution. The last 3 springs, I've spend downtown Chiang Mai, and I didn't notice any burning forests nor burning fields in the neighborhood. I remember reports from people living in Chiang Rai, Mae Hong Song, Lampang or the remote countryside, which made their local conditions sound much worse, than what i encountered downtown Chiang Mai.

All in all: I'd say suggesting to put CM on some list of highly polluted cities would make as much sense as putting Pai or some remote village on it.

Link: http://www.pcd.go.th

[chiang mai]

Below is yesterdays air quality index for various sites in Thailand. It may be noticed that Chiang Mai is doing pretty well, despite it is the second largest city in Thailand and one thus should expect some pollution from traffic and such. The table and graph shows a typical picture of the situation outside of the 3-5 bad weeks every spring. I remember I posted the graph for the day before the day of the first rain in 5 months in early April - already that graph showed a similar picture.

Besides keeping in mind that the bad air truly is confined to those few weeks it would also be good to keep in mind that you can't really blame Chiang Mai for the pollution. The last 3 springs, I've spend downtown Chiang Mai, and I didn't notice any burning forests nor burning fields in the neighborhood. I remember reports from people living in Chiang Rai, Mae Hong Song, Lampang or the remote countryside, which made their local conditions sound much worse, than what i encountered downtown Chiang Mai.

All in all: I'd say suggesting to put CM on some list of highly polluted cities would make as much sense as putting Pai or some remote village on it.

Link: http://www.pcd.go.th

Two years during the early Spring I was in Bangkok and the cabbie had tuned to an American speaking radio channel - at the time there was concern about the air quality in Chiang Mai. The broadcaster said that CM's air quality had been measured and had been found to be 220% over the acceptable limits for paticulate content. That was the only news item I heard or read on that subject that Spring. In addition, I think that a quick search of this site will uncover a lot of detail on this subject and will demonstrate that the so called burning season is much much longer three to six weeks.

[highonthai]

QUOTE(catch22 @ 2007-09-17 07:24:33) *

highonthai - this sort of statement by you REALLY IS boring and it has been said a thousand times...much more eloquently!! What's wrong with criticism, some would like to see an improvement in air quality. Not everyone lives their lives in smoke filled rooms or hanging out at smoke filled katoey karaoke pits, which you probably do.

Ouch, that hurts....

[sabaijai]

It's a lot dirtier than it needs to be but its not industrial pollution. China last time I heard has something like 260 of the 300 worst polluted cities in the world. I don't think any city in Thailand even made the list.

That's true, and the rankings are based on measurable stats, not opinion polls.

[sabaijai]

Below is yesterdays air quality index for various sites in Thailand. It may be noticed that Chiang Mai is doing pretty well, despite it is the second largest city in Thailand and one thus should expect some pollution from traffic and such.

Link: http://www.pcd.go.th

Correction: Chiang Mai is not the 2nd largest city in Thailand, rather 5th (by municipal population), and then only if you don't count the provincial capitals adjacent to Bangkok, which if you do, brings it down to around number 8.