Mae Sai

[visionary]

I would like to communicate with people living in Mae Sae engaged in voluntary community projects. Volunteerism is a major part of my own life. Someday I may get to Mae Sai myself , for the time being I wish to support ongoing work there while I continue with my projects in Canada. I have already chosen a project to support there so I am not seeking financial appeals. I simply seek to communicate with people there for an increase of knowledge and mutual encouragement.

[my friend I]

Be careful of a 'group 'based in Mae Sai that claims to assist Akha women.

[tayto]

Also be careful of bible thumping christian so called do gooders.

These scum are like a plague in Chiang Rai and their so called caring and compassion comes at a price to the weaker and more vunerable members of society.

[visionary]

Also be careful of bible thumping christian so called do gooders.

These scum are like a plague in Chiang Rai and their so called caring and compassion comes at a price to the weaker and more vunerable members of society.

I spent about two years in missions myself in my youth. It was a very disillusioning period. A group of students in Mexico I met while on a field trip there said " Show us some missionaries that live a Christian life and we will convert while working alongside of them. All we ever meet are opportunists that grow rich upon our suffering. They only serve here while they can live like kings among us, driving their Mercedes and enjoying country club lifestyles. If their denominations pulled their funding " God " would " call " them elsewhere before they would part with their private wealth."

After meeting about 80 Mexican missionaries I came to agree with them. As I search postings from Mae Sai I see lots of postings from missionaries and orphanages begging for money for new motorcycles, cars and other luxuries. As I review their mission photos I see evidence of squandered money everywhere. If the missionaries and professional aid workers in Mae Sai cut their automotive spending in half they could easily eliminate most maternal and infant mortalities in entire villages.

I apologise for the cynicism. There are people there that are making a positive contribution. I pray their efforts will outshine the decadence of the professional con artists that stand out so repugnantly among them.

[tayto]

I agree 100 %.

These people cannot simply donate their money or time to education or to the improvement of infrastructure in these pooer villages and leave.

They want to set up nice homes near to the city, drive nice cars and gather up a group of girls from the villages and put them into dormitories, where they are at the mercy of these scumbags.

Volunteering is a big business in Thailand, volunteer teachers pay big bucks just to come to teach in Thailand and only a small fraction of donations seems to reach the really needy people.

[Bagwan]

Every time I go to Tukcom in Pattaya I see at least half a dozen Buddhist monks and they appear to be buying the latest mobile phone or another goodie for a PC. So much for a vow of poverty.

[Flatouthruthefog]

I agree 100 %.

These people cannot simply donate their money or time to education or to the improvement of infrastructure in these pooer villages and leave.

They want to set up nice homes near to the city, drive nice cars and gather up a group of girls from the villages and put them into dormitories, where they are at the mercy of these scumbags.

Volunteering is a big business in Thailand, volunteer teachers pay big bucks just to come to teach in Thailand and only a small fraction of donations seems to reach the really needy people.

Although I am a 'newbie poster' I have 15 years experience of northern Thailand (almost all full time living here) and I strongly commend ALL the advice given here to the original poster.

I do hope, OP, that you have chosen a good cause to support, because there are so many bad ones. It is so very sad that so many are "Christian" outfits that have diverted off the path - or cynical imitations which were never on it in the first place.

There is NOTHING to compare with being here yourself, swanning around as a mere 'interested tourist' and sussing out all these causes for yourself. Do that as soon as you land. Meantime I suggest you contact one of the tv Moderators in CR or CM (which I know better - p1p is excellent) and try to obtain confidential advice on your current generous investment in people.

Remember: some people never forgive you for what you do for them.

[visionary]

They want to set up nice homes near to the city, drive nice cars and gather up a group of girls from the villages and put them into dormitories, where they are at the mercy of these scumbags.

The downside of orphanages , boarding schools and adoption is of major interest to me. At some point I would like to start a thread on the subject.

My maternal grandfather was a Wyandot ( Huron -Chippawa) Indian born upon a very conservative reservation in Ontario, Canada. The members of that reservation fled holocaust in Michigan during the 1840s to resettle in Ontario. He was born illegitamely and mildly disabled about 1900. Cultural belief at that time was that the mother and grandmother of either a disabled or illegitamate child should kill it at birth before it drew it's first breath. As he grew in childhood there were some in the reservation that would have liked to kill him since his mother and grandmother had not but he was protected by a sympathetic extended family.

At the age of seven missionaries convinced his mother to release him to a boarding school for his protection from stigmatisation. Shortly thereafter he was almost beaten to death in the poorly supervised school dormitory by older students because of his disability. This event led to his adoption by a faultless missionary family within a supportive church community. They went as far as to claim that he was there biological son in an attempt to protect him from discrimination.

In early adulthood his true racial origin was visibly apparent. He was persecuted and marginalised by the outer community. Beleiving that there was no real place for him in the white world he attempted to return to his birth reservation. They refused to allow him back because he was red on the outside but culturally white.

Eventually he married a light complexioned woman of mixed ancestry.Their children could pass for white. Living in the white community he was traumatised by the persecution of his children because of his appearance as they moved from town to town, never fully accepted, always marginalised. Eventually he concluded that the best thing he could do for his family was to commit suicide. He believed that his family could leave the ancestral territory and become white if he was not in the picture. Shortly after informing the surrounding community of his intent and hopes he died, leaving four whitish children under 10 behind. His children honored his wishes by disclaiming their heritage and becoming as white as they could. To this day they carry the pain of his sacrifice while trying to be something they are not.

At age 14 my mother sent me to a foster home two thousand miles away to protect our extended family from my native pride and interest in aboriginal affairs. My Indianness endangered their wannabe whiteness. To this day I am shunned by the family, unable to live among them. I have returned to the reservation and found that I am no more welcome than my grandfather was. At 53 I still live in the area of my banishment. I know no other Wyandot here. As a well recognised activist and emerging elder I stand alone. Many prominent local elders endorse and encourage many of my actions while reminding me that I am not truly of them though welcome among them.

I have never known a sense of home or belonging 100 years after my grandfathers placement in a boarding school and adoption.

[svenivan]

Every time I go to Tukcom in Pattaya I see at least half a dozen Buddhist monks and they appear to be buying the latest mobile phone or another goodie for a PC. So much for a vow of poverty.

You must learn to see the difference between a monk and a novice. The novice stay in the temple for short time, a week up to a year, and they can go out shopping as any other citizen. Of course even the monks also have mobiles and PC´s.

But very seldom the monks are driving Toyota Fortuner, lives in a big house with gardener and at least one maid, and even more seldom they have a couple of children that go to private school. And so far I have not seen any monks taking their families for holidays going to Singapore, Hong Kong, Mauritius or such places.

But there are many missionaries living that kind of life!

And the people back in US, UK, Taiwan etc that have sent their money to this mission, they have not a clue what is happening with their money!

[konjianghai]

Every time I go to Tukcom in Pattaya I see at least half a dozen Buddhist monks and they appear to be buying the latest mobile phone or another goodie for a PC. So much for a vow of poverty.

You must learn to see the difference between a monk and a novice. The novice stay in the temple for short time, a week up to a year, and they can go out shopping as any other citizen. Of course even the monks also have mobiles and PC´s.

But very seldom the monks are driving Toyota Fortuner, lives in a big house with gardener and at least one maid, and even more seldom they have a couple of children that go to private school. And so far I have not seen any monks taking their families for holidays going to Singapore, Hong Kong, Mauritius or such places.

But there are many missionaries living that kind of life!

And the people back in US, UK, Taiwan etc that have sent their money to this mission, they have not a clue what is happening with their money!

Monks are not allow to drive a car or live in their own house and for sure no wife and kids. But for Mahayana and Vajrayana buddhism they can i guess. Not sure about living in their own house but they can have wife and kids.

[Joel Barlow]

Visionary

For long I lived in Arizona with Hopis and Navahos (and spent time as a baby in the Black Hills of South Dakota with the "Souix" - Lakota, I believe). Now I live in Nam Lat, just north of ChiangRai City, with my Lahu wife and her siblings. Here we have a couple Lahu orphanages with no 'white' people. Christian, yes (I am not, though a Quaker - or, rather, member of the Society of Friends. My wife and family are not Christian either, but animist).

My friend Somsak runs one of these orphanages, and is a truly nice guy, as is his father, a Baptist preacher.

If you would like to meet Somsak, please PM me.

There are over 100 Akha NGOs around here - most quite suspect to many of us who've been here awhile! "Empower" in MaeSai and BKK claims to help girls out of prostitution by improving their English...

[visionary]

Visionary

For long I lived in Arizona with Hopis and Navahos (and spent time as a baby in the Black Hills of South Dakota with the "Souix" - Lakota, I believe). Now I live in Nam Lat, just north of ChiangRai City, with my Lahu wife and her siblings. Here we have a couple Lahu orphanages with no 'white' people. Christian, yes (I am not, though a Quaker - or, rather, member of the Society of Friends. My wife and family are not Christian either, but animist).

My friend Somsak runs one of these orphanages, and is a truly nice guy, as is his father, a Baptist preacher.

If you would like to meet Somsak, please PM me.

There are over 100 Akha NGOs around here - most quite suspect to many of us who've been here awhile! "Empower" in MaeSai and BKK claims to help girls out of prostitution by improving their English...

Here in Canada I don't know of any " Happy Ever After" stories from indigenous peoples after adoption, foster care, or boarding school. Some children are definitely at risk but I find it hard to believe that any country could produce as many at risk children as I hear there are in Thailand. I speculate that most adopted children are given by parents concerned about education that is denied them by both the Thai government and missions community. If access to education is the the real underlying issue behind child removal , then both the government and the missions are guilty of horrific and unjustifiable crimes against these people. Family and community unity are essential to mental health . Any unnecessary assault upon them is a crime against humanity.

[toybits]

Stay away from faith-based organizations and Missionaries fronting as English Language schools.

You might want to get in touch with the Mirror Arts Group which is doing real work with tribal people at Ban Huai Khom in Mae Yao sub-district of Muang Chiang Rai.

There is also another organization near Mae Sai called Childlife...

http://www.childlife-maesai.org/index.html

good luck....

[Crow Boy]

In my experience people are people irrespective of their faith or culture. Some are good, some are bad, sometimes good people do bad things, and sometimes bad people turn out good. This is a convoluted way of saying that making statements such as "this religion or group of NGOs are all bad" is dangerous. I have met some exceedingly good Christian missionaries who try very hard to raise the level of some very poor and marginalised people in the area. I know that some people abuse their position of trust in the communty but not every NGO officer drives around in a big white Fortuner.

Reference the monks in Thailand. The buddha did not specifically forbid the purchase of cigarettes nor mobile phones but the precepts do cover these types of things very well "abstain from trivial things of amusement" "abstain for all things that cause heedlessness" Yes some monks to use mobile phone but certainly out of the larger cities it is much less common. For a start a monk cannot own or use money so cannot purchase a renewal card for the phone.

Buddhist Monks as living in Thailand may have a wife and family IF they had them before they took on robes ie became a monk. However he cannot live with his wife as a married couple. Again the precepts forbit him from touching a women, and there are quite a number that cover "thinking lustfull thoughts" If you are interested in Buddhism and monks then I suggest you look at the Buddhism Forum.

To the original poster - the suggestion to contact one of the moderators such as P1p is a good idea. You may also wish to contact Sabaijai. Both have been in the area for quite a number of years and have a very good knowledge of Thailand.

Please feel free to continue this conversation - it is interesting but please avoid any blanket statements criticising particular organisations or religions. If you have any specific information about any specific person or organisation abusing their priveledge in Thailand then you should report them to the police and or Immigration who have to power and responsibility to investigate.

thanks

CB

[soap]

In my experience people are people irrespective of their faith or culture. Some are good, some are bad, sometimes good people do bad things, and sometimes bad people turn out good. This is a convoluted way of saying that making statements such as "this religion or group of NGOs are all bad" is dangerous. I have met some exceedingly good Christian missionaries who try very hard to raise the level of some very poor and marginalised people in the area. I know that some people abuse their position of trust in the communty but not every NGO officer drives around in a big white Fortuner.

Reference the monks in Thailand. The buddha did not specifically forbid the purchase of cigarettes nor mobile phones but the precepts do cover these types of things very well "abstain from trivial things of amusement" "abstain for all things that cause heedlessness" Yes some monks to use mobile phone but certainly out of the larger cities it is much less common. For a start a monk cannot own or use money so cannot purchase a renewal card for the phone.

Buddhist Monks as living in Thailand may have a wife and family IF they had them before they took on robes ie became a monk. However he cannot live with his wife as a married couple. Again the precepts forbit him from touching a women, and there are quite a number that cover "thinking lustfull thoughts" If you are interested in Buddhism and monks then I suggest you look at the Buddhism Forum.

To the original poster - the suggestion to contact one of the moderators such as P1p is a good idea. You may also wish to contact Sabaijai. Both have been in the area for quite a number of years and have a very good knowledge of Thailand.

Please feel free to continue this conversation - it is interesting but please avoid any blanket statements criticising particular organisations or religions. If you have any specific information about any specific person or organisation abusing their priveledge in Thailand then you should report them to the police and or Immigration who have to power and responsibility to investigate.

thanks

CB

well said crow boy

[chownah]

Please feel free to continue this conversation

[visionary]

In my experience people are people irrespective of their faith or culture. Some are good, some are bad, sometimes good people do bad things, and sometimes bad people turn out good. This is a convoluted way of saying that making statements such as "this religion or group of NGOs are all bad" is dangerous. I have met some exceedingly good Christian missionaries who try very hard to raise the level of some very poor and marginalised people in the area. I know that some people abuse their position of trust in the communty but not every NGO officer drives around in a big white Fortuner.

Reference the monks in Thailand. The buddha did not specifically forbid the purchase of cigarettes nor mobile phones but the precepts do cover these types of things very well "abstain from trivial things of amusement" "abstain for all things that cause heedlessness" Yes some monks to use mobile phone but certainly out of the larger cities it is much less common. For a start a monk cannot own or use money so cannot purchase a renewal card for the phone.

Buddhist Monks as living in Thailand may have a wife and family IF they had them before they took on robes ie became a monk. However he cannot live with his wife as a married couple. Again the precepts forbit him from touching a women, and there are quite a number that cover "thinking lustfull thoughts" If you are interested in Buddhism and monks then I suggest you look at the Buddhism Forum.

To the original poster - the suggestion to contact one of the moderators such as P1p is a good idea. You may also wish to contact Sabaijai. Both have been in the area for quite a number of years and have a very good knowledge of Thailand.

Please feel free to continue this conversation - it is interesting but please avoid any blanket statements criticising particular organisations or religions. If you have any specific information about any specific person or organisation abusing their priveledge in Thailand then you should report them to the police and or Immigration who have to power and responsibility to investigate.

thanks

CB

I personally do not intend to slander anyone. Identifying issues of concern to me is often considered to be a caustic indictment. That is not my intent although it is often the result. At times like these I am reminded of the Taoist yin yan symbol. It gives me a sense of pardon for good intentions gone wrong while torturing me with the reminder that there is an opposite seed of reaction within every action.

May all who strive do so with clarity of thought and conscience , encouraged by a supportive circle of right minded friends.

George

[tayto]

Please feel free to continue this conversation

Thank you for permission to continue our conversation???????

I think there is a general agreement amongst the posters that most of the many, many missionaries in Chiang Rai are not worthy to receive any donations from the o.p.

There are some suggestions of other organizations that are worthy and I totally agree with them.

[Crow Boy]

Please feel free to continue this conversation

Thank you for permission to continue our conversation???????

Come on give me a break - it's my first day

I think there is a general agreement amongst the posters that most of the many, many missionaries in Chiang Rai are not worthy to receive any donations from the o.p.

There are some suggestions of other organizations that are worthy and I totally agree with them.

Is it general agreement out of factual information that these people are abusing their position? If that is the case then they should be reported to Immigration. All NGOs have to register and comply with strict guidelines and failure to do that is grounds for them to be sent packing. Over the years there have certainly been organisations that have done a lot of damage to the people who they are meant to protect.

It is good that you guys are able to help visionary trying to find an organisation that will help the local people.

CB

[sceadugenga]

I suppose being a missionary these days is a career like any other. They want a job with perks and a decent salary like anyone else.

The days of the Doctor Livingstone type appear to be gone, dedicated people working in isolated places for decades with scarcely a roof over their heads...

What bugs me is their "holier than thou" attitude, and how little money from genuine donors filters down to the people it's intended for. A lot of the tsunami money was side tracked into other projects and the culprits got quite indignant when this was pointed it out.

There was a post on Thai360 the other day about two highly qualified English doctors, husband and wife, who just packed up and moved to Mai Sot on the Burmese border to treat refugees. In their spare time , they conduct research into some of the strange diseases they come across.

Here's the link... don't panic CrowBoy it's to the original story, not Thai360.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6984020.stm

Now that's my sort of "missionary".

Edited September 20, 2007 by sceadugenga

[tayto]

Please feel free to continue this conversation

Thank you for permission to continue our conversation???????

Come on give me a break - it's my first day

Welcome to Chiang Rai.

I think there is a general agreement amongst the posters that most of the many, many missionaries in Chiang Rai are not worthy to receive any donations from the o.p.

There are some suggestions of other organizations that are worthy and I totally agree with them.

Is it general agreement out of factual information that these people are abusing their position?

Yes, first and second hand knowledge.

if you want various examples, I will gladly post them

If that is the case then they should be reported to Immigration.

CB

I would not report anything to immigration or to the police here nor do I think anyone else would

Edited September 20, 2007 by tayto

[tayto]

I suppose being a missionary these days is a career like any other. They want a job with perks and a decent salary like anyone else.

The days of the Doctor Livingstone type appear to be gone, dedicated people working in isolated places for decades with scarcely a roof over their heads...

What bugs me is their "holier than thou" attitude, and how little money from genuine donors filters down to the people it's intended for. A lot of the tsunami money was side tracked into other projects and the culprits got quite indignant when this was pointed it out.

There was a post on Thai360 the other day about two highly qualified English doctors, husband and wife, who just packed up and moved to Mai Sot on the Burmese border to treat refugees. In their spare time , they conduct research into some of the strange diseases they come across.

Here's the link... don't panic CrowBoy it's to the original story, not Thai360.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6984020.stm

Now that's my sort of "missionary".

Great article about really caring people.

I think the day of volunteering and caring for the deprived is over, everything seems to have a price tag.

I also know first hand of a considerable amount of money, send by my local town to the tsunami victims, that was squandered by local officials on lunches and travelling expenses to Bangkok.

God, Buddha or Allah be with them, not.

[CSS]

I suppose being a missionary these days is a career like any other. They want a job with perks and a decent salary like anyone else.

The days of the Doctor Livingstone type appear to be gone, dedicated people working in isolated places for decades with scarcely a roof over their heads...

What bugs me is their "holier than thou" attitude, and how little money from genuine donors filters down to the people it's intended for. A lot of the tsunami money was side tracked into other projects and the culprits got quite indignant when this was pointed it out.

There was a post on Thai360 the other day about two highly qualified English doctors, husband and wife, who just packed up and moved to Mai Sot on the Burmese border to treat refugees. In their spare time , they conduct research into some of the strange diseases they come across.

Here's the link... don't panic CrowBoy it's to the original story, not Thai360.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6984020.stm

Now that's my sort of "missionary".

Great article about really caring people.

I think the day of volunteering and caring for the deprived is over, everything seems to have a price tag.

I also know first hand of a considerable amount of money, send by my local town to the tsunami victims, that was squandered by local officials on lunches and travelling expenses to Bangkok.

God, Buddha or Allah be with them, not.

I'm not nearly so cynical. I still find many a fine person voluntarily caring for the deprived. I guess it's just the circle of people one walks amongst.

I remember reading a survey asking various groups what percentage of the population took drugs. Those that took drugs felt a much larger percentage of the total population also took drugs as opposed to the perspectives of those who didn't take drugs. The same principle may be at work here.

[tayto]

I suppose being a missionary these days is a career like any other. They want a job with perks and a decent salary like anyone else.

The days of the Doctor Livingstone type appear to be gone, dedicated people working in isolated places for decades with scarcely a roof over their heads...

What bugs me is their "holier than thou" attitude, and how little money from genuine donors filters down to the people it's intended for. A lot of the tsunami money was side tracked into other projects and the culprits got quite indignant when this was pointed it out.

There was a post on Thai360 the other day about two highly qualified English doctors, husband and wife, who just packed up and moved to Mai Sot on the Burmese border to treat refugees. In their spare time , they conduct research into some of the strange diseases they come across.

Here's the link... don't panic CrowBoy it's to the original story, not Thai360.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6984020.stm

Now that's my sort of "missionary".

Great article about really caring people.

I think the day of volunteering and caring for the deprived is over, everything seems to have a price tag.

I also know first hand of a considerable amount of money, send by my local town to the tsunami victims, that was squandered by local officials on lunches and travelling expenses to Bangkok.

God, Buddha or Allah be with them, not.

I'm not nearly so cynical. I still find many a fine person voluntarily caring for the deprived. I guess it's just the circle of people one walks amongst.

I remember reading a survey asking various groups what percentage of the population took drugs. Those that took drugs felt a much larger percentage of the total population also took drugs as opposed to the perspectives of those who didn't take drugs. The same principle may be at work here.

So, are you trying to say we are all taking drugs???????????????????????????? or that we are all missionaries????????????????

[visionary]

Based on my experience in Mexico I believe that the most effective caregivers are not recognised nor do they seek recognition. I spent some time at a church there that was comprised of 80 foreign missionaries, most of whom had never accomplished anything. Whenever anyone got baptised a dozen missionaries took photos to take the credit in their reports to the home office. Within the congregation were an elctrician and a nurse. The nurse spent six months a year working in the US and six months of low wages working part time at a mexican hospital . She also spent 40 to 60 hours a week as a volunteer at free clinics. The electrician also worked 6 months a year in the US to raise money. While in Mexico he did some paid work to raise money but most of his time was spent voluntarily upgrading electrical services in poorer communities. Many missionaries told me that these two members did commendable work but did not deserve the rerspect of real missionaries. Most Nationals told me that they attended the church to upgrade their english skillls and only gave enough cooperation to the missionaries to keep the doors open. They also pointed out that if either the nurse or the electrician ever spoke or asked anything of them they would both listen and act with admiration and respect.

I have known hundreds of people like the nurse and the electrician that have gone across the globe in the same manner as described above. You seldom ever hear anything about them. Most of those people have been religious. I wonder if their religions wouldn't obtain greater results if the professionals all stayed home and let the lay people get the job done.

[Bagwan]

Every time I go to Tukcom in Pattaya I see at least half a dozen Buddhist monks and they appear to be buying the latest mobile phone or another goodie for a PC. So much for a vow of poverty.

You must learn to see the difference between a monk and a novice.

How do I do that?

True story.

My stepson telephoned to ask if he had my permission to go to live in the local wat. When I asked why he said that he had finally come to his senses and he wanted to learn to read and write. (This after me spending a small fortune on school fees and a private tutor). I not only agreed but gave him much encouragement - and financial inducement to stay the course.

Three days later he telephoned to say that he had attended a funeral the previously day and his end of the rake off was 350 baht. Wow! Wear a saffron frock, do a gig, get rich. Who needs pop stars? Being part of a glee club obviously pays better than picking chillies all day for 100 baht.

I advised him to forget education, buy himself a gun and use it on the local population - and in a years time I shall be looking to him for financial assistance to replace the Mercedes.

[visionary]

I suppose being a missionary these days is a career like any other. They want a job with perks and a decent salary like anyone else.

The days of the Doctor Livingstone type appear to be gone, dedicated people working in isolated places for decades with scarcely a roof over their heads...

What bugs me is their "holier than thou" attitude, and how little money from genuine donors filters down to the people it's intended for. A lot of the tsunami money was side tracked into other projects and the culprits got quite indignant when this was pointed it out.

There was a post on Thai360 the other day about two highly qualified English doctors, husband and wife, who just packed up and moved to Mai Sot on the Burmese border to treat refugees. In their spare time , they conduct research into some of the strange diseases they come across.

Here's the link... don't panic CrowBoy it's to the original story, not Thai360.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6984020.stm

Now that's my sort of "missionary".

Great article about really caring people.

I think the day of volunteering and caring for the deprived is over, everything seems to have a price tag.

I also know first hand of a considerable amount of money, send by my local town to the tsunami victims, that was squandered by local officials on lunches and travelling expenses to Bangkok.

God, Buddha or Allah be with them, not.

Money management, perception and accountability.

As part of a missions training program in my over zealous youth I was one of 30 students that went on a two month field trip to Mexico. About 20 of the students, including myself,were absolutely penniless after paying our tuition and field trip expenses. After about a month another student that had received a gift of 20 US dollars gave me a tithe of $2.00, boostring my sense of self worth by stating that he deemed me the most worthy to recieve his $2.00 gift.I spent about 2 days trying to figure out how best to spend the money. A lot of the bankrupt students were depressed about being broke. We weren't allowed to do any work in the community other than our assigned tasks.That meant that bankrupt students wandered aimlessly around the camp when not fulfilling work assignments.I decided to lift the spirits of two of the brokest students by spending 45 cents on coffee for the 3 of us. I made the mistake of not confirming the price first and the coffee ended up costing $1.50. All hel_l broke out after that with fellow students accusing me of having squanderied the money too carelessly. Some said I should have bought bandages , toothpaste or if I was interested in boosting morale ,a dozen coffee at 15 cents a piece. It seemed that everyone that had too much time time on their hands shredded me for mismanagement. Obviously carergivers should not be driving Cadillac Escalades but at every point between that and barefoot on the trail caregivers face criticism about how they spend their money.

[klikster]

Reference the monks in Thailand. The buddha did not specifically forbid the purchase of cigarettes nor mobile phones but the precepts do cover these types of things very well "abstain from trivial things of amusement" "abstain for all things that cause heedlessness" Yes some monks to use mobile phone but certainly out of the larger cities it is much less common.

The Buddha could surely not have commented on cel phones and cigarettes some 2,500 years ago.

For a start a monk cannot own or use money so cannot purchase a renewal card for the phone.

You should probably use "not supposed to" instead of "can" in the context of behavior of monks. I suppose the millions collected by Luang Por Khun (an esteemed and respected monk) at Wat Baan Rai are owned by a collective.

And as to the teachings of Lord Buddha, there is a wide gulf between what he reportedly taught and how Buddhism is practiced in Thailand. As an example, cite the sermon where the Buddha tells his followers to build ornate temples.

I believe he may have suggested otherwise .. something along the lines of .. monks staying in the forest to meditate.

[Crow Boy]

Reference the monks in Thailand. The buddha did not specifically forbid the purchase of cigarettes nor mobile phones but the precepts do cover these types of things very well "abstain from trivial things of amusement" "abstain for all things that cause heedlessness" Yes some monks to use mobile phone but certainly out of the larger cities it is much less common.

The Buddha could surely not have commented on cel phones and cigarettes some 2,500 years ago.

Obviously - but this has been used as an argument in defence of those monks with a nicotine habit.

For a start a monk cannot own or use money so cannot purchase a renewal card for the phone.

You should probably use "not supposed to" instead of "can" in the context of behavior of monks. I suppose the millions collected by Luang Por Khun (an esteemed and respected monk) at Wat Baan Rai are owned by a collective.

Monks have different wording in the precepts. As lay people the term is "avoid" but for monks it is "abstain from". Monks also have additional precepts, depending on the monk it is normally 227 but sometimes they will purposely add additional ones. One monk I know added the "abstain from Tobacco because he used to smoke and wanted to make that commitment. Some monks will add to the precept of "abstain from comfortable bed" to "abstain from any bed ie sleep on the ground" or "abstain from sleeping in a prone position" ie they will sleep in a kneeling or cross legged position. This is because as a monk you have a higher level of commitment. Consequently the same five precepts for Lay and Monks are used by both but where it says "should avoid intoxicants" the monk's precept is "abstain from all intixicants" depending on the individual monk or the abbots interpretation of "intoxicant" that may include tobacco. The mobile phone is "abstain from trivial pursuits" also because monks have the precept "abstain from all gold and silver" plus "abstain from all forms of commerce" that means a monk cannot purchase or sell goods, cannot have a job or accept money for his own personal use. All money donated actually belongs to the monastary not the individual monk. Therefore in theory if a monk is given a mobile phone he must hand it over to the monestary because he can't own property or belongings. If the monastary gives him a mobile phone to use - they must also purchase the recharge cards or pay the post paid bill. Some lay people do exactly this. They give a mobile phone for the use of the monks - they do sometimes need to make phone calls. They then donate recharge cards as tambun. The bottom line is that what a monk does and how he behaves is up to him. Some monks are more strict than others, some abbots enforce more strict rules than others.

And as to the teachings of Lord Buddha, there is a wide gulf between what he reportedly taught and how Buddhism is practiced in Thailand.

That is correct, there are significant differences between the original teachings of the Lord Buddha and how it is practiced in India, Nepal, Sri Lanka (origin of Thai buddhism) and here in Thailand. There are differences in style between the regions within Thailand as well. Some monks refuse to give out the strings (ban sin) that people like to wear around their wrist as "proof" that they have done tam bun recently ie the string is still white. Some monks refuse to bless motor cars, motor cycles etc as being animistic not buddhist. There are many differences between a city monk, a village monk and a forest/mountain/cave monk.

As an example, cite the sermon where the Buddha tells his followers to build ornate temples.

I believe he may have suggested otherwise .. something along the lines of .. monks staying in the forest to meditate.

I also can't find the passage in the bible where it instructs people to build ornate cathedrals. It is people who interpret religion and then modify the teachings to suit themselves. I often wonder what Jesus, Mohammed, and the Lord Buddha would think if they came back and saw what people had done to their teachings.

CB

[chownah]

About the use of tobacco. As recently as World War 2 cigarettes were advertised as being good for digestion and that it was healthy to have a cigarette after meals. Even though the common opinion was that smoking tobacco was unhealthy it was not proven until very recently.