How Rich Thais View Poor

[Plus]

disdain for the women from those towns who did not enter prostitution in the following line "take them shopping in shops that their town neighbors could only be maids in"

I thought she was talking about injustice towards girls earning their living in honest ways.

That is the crux of the matter - prostitutes are shown respect they don't deserve. That comletely screwes up the priorities. People often complain about deference towards all kinds of crooks in Thailand, even in this tread, but this is not very different.

[britmaveric]

The more I think about it, this has less to do with prostitution, but more a territorial thing. Basically it comes down to the poor invading a rich persons territory. The audacity of some toilet shopping where I shop.

It's a sad reflection of Thai Society at its worst, but I dare say the blogger wouldn't have the audacity to say that to the person in questions face.

prostitutes are shown respect they don't deserve

Anyone who feels this way is rather low class and deserves no respect.

Edited September 21, 2007 by britmaveric

[consumerismsux]

Please do not bother what other people think and/ore say about you.

If you are happy with your partner (wherever she/him is from) please enjoy your time together.

If you hear some people talking bad about you just reply: Yet mung!

This is by far the most sensible & useful statement on this thread so far. I would only differ in my reply to someone who speaks badly of me...I would not say anything. The 'shitslinger' would simply not exist.

[JonnyF]

I find it quite funny how many (not all) non-Thais apologise/excuse the attitudes of the Thais towards people of other nationalities/races and lower classes (darker skinned).

For example, when a friend come over to visit, he was commenting on how nice it was that the Thai people all stuck together and voted for parties with names such as "Thai rak Thai". When I asked him whether he would be voting BNP (British Nationalist Party) when he got home, and he said "of course not, that's different". Kind of a double standard in my opinion.

It's really not up to rich people to decide which shops poorer people "belong" in.

If the people on this forum heard this girls views being expressed over the dinner table by one of their friends (Thai or not) I think they would be much more inclined to object.

Having said that - she is perfectly entitled to hold these views and I admire her honesty.

[Plus]

I correct myself - demanding respect they don't deserve. She sympatised with the shop staff that had to service the offensive couple.

>>>

Still, it's not really surprising that some farangs stand up for prostitutes when it comes to lack of respect. What is surprising is why they don't demand the same respect for hookers and strippers back home. Why don't they challenge their own societies to embrace prostitution, and, perhaps, start pimping out their own daughters as an example...

They make it sound as if it's only in Thailand where prostitution carries a social stigma.

[WaiWai]

Thais like a "smooth surface", as you must know. While this, linked with the classist/casteist features of Thai social structure may not be very palatable to many of us, having large numbers of "mature" foreigners barge in to "hi-so" shopping areas with their "teeraks" is not going to win us any points for social delicacy -- or intelligence, of any kind.

Edited September 21, 2007 by WaiWai

[britmaveric]

Plus - I have the same views whether its in Thailand or out of Thailand mate. You give respect as a matter of common decency mate. It's not a hard concept to understand. now is it? I treat people the same way I like to be treated. Demand respect? I don't think anyone is demanding respect - its about treating everyone the same, regardless of who they are or what they do.

What it boils down to is class based racism, and thats rather ugly.

[WaiWai]

This is by far the most sensible & useful statement on this thread so far. I would only differ in my reply to someone who speaks badly of me...I would not say anything. The 'shitslinger' would simply not exist.

Some people seem to come to Thailand and hope to dream Thailand's norms into conformity with their own wishes. It's quite interesting to observe this. They want a land of sun, free (or cheap) sex and no consequences.

And indeed, there are certain places that may seem to be literal manifestations of some adolescents' dreams. But once the workers leave those confines, Thai norms apply.

Prostitutes do not wish to have their status broadcast in public, and especially when taken from the bar scene.

Edited September 21, 2007 by WaiWai

[Plus]

It's really not up to rich people to decide which shops poorer people "belong" in.

But it's entirely withing their rights to demand "exclusivity". How is it different from VIP lounges or night clubs enforcing dress codes?

You are fulling yourself if you think that people with the means will ever be happily rubbing shoulders with "low class". Normally the price serves as a separating barrier, but they can also resort to "members only" policies.

I don't think Thais are anymore snobbish than Brits or rich Americans. In many ways they are more respectful towards people on the lower rungs - it comes with the territory. One of the first obligations of any "pee" is to look after "nongs", provide for them, care for them, and support them in times of need. They would never disown them and would usually take full responsibility for their transgressions. Not in internal disputes, of course.

[consumerismsux]

......

For example, when a friend come over to visit, he was commenting on how nice it was that the Thai people all stuck together and voted for parties with names such as "Thai rak Thai". When I asked him whether he would be voting BNP (British Nationalist Party) when he got home, and he said "of course not, that's different". Kind of a double standard in my opinion.

.....

I don't acknowledge any type of 'caste/class' system or attitude.

But just to be obscure, I will suggest that there are 2 distinct classes/castes in Thailand...the 'non-thinkers' (the majority) & the thinkers (the minority). But strangely, I think this is true in many other countries. It's just that Thais seem more than happy to only see the superficial aspect of people, whilst applying their rather complicated & 'deep' cultural rules. The whole thing is a bit of an oxymoron really.

Edited September 21, 2007 by consumerismsux

[JonnyF]

It's really not up to rich people to decide which shops poorer people "belong" in.

But it's entirely withing their rights to demand "exclusivity". How is it different from VIP lounges or night clubs enforcing dress codes?

You are fulling yourself if you think that people with the means will ever be happily rubbing shoulders with "low class". Normally the price serves as a separating barrier, but they can also resort to "members only" policies.

I don't think Thais are anymore snobbish than Brits or rich Americans. In many ways they are more respectful towards people on the lower rungs - it comes with the territory. One of the first obligations of any "pee" is to look after "nongs", provide for them, care for them, and support them in times of need. They would never disown them and would usually take full responsibility for their transgressions. Not in internal disputes, of course.

VIP clubs and clubs with dress codes have rules which have to be met. As far as I can tell the only rule of a shop is that you have to pay for the goods. The goods were paid for. There was no dress code in the shop nor rule about skin colour or race.

I'm not saying that these people will be happy to rub shoulders with "low class" people. I'm just saying that the fact that they are not reveals a great deal about their character.

[canadiangirl]

But really -- what if some hi-so families had prostitutes in their family tree 10 generations ago? What does that really change? Does that take away the right to find certain things about people distasteful now? If you go back far enough, we all have monkeys in our family tree.

You are missing the point, Thais do not find prostitution distasteful.

How can you say this, when the post we've been discussing for 17 pages or so is by a Thai who finds prostitution distasteful?

[fletchsmile]

It's not a tremendously well-written piece by Kitty, but it does have its moments. I think we all have to agree with the toilet analogy!

Totally disagree with the analogy. What gives anyone the right to sh*t on another human being?

Looking down on these girls with absolutely no understanding of their individual circumstances is bad enough, without extending to this sort of analogy. I'm not saying that some Thai prostitutes haven't chosen their profession, in the way you like to stereotype them, and they have taken an easy path. On the other hand there are thousands who definitely haven't chosen this, or would have walked a different path in life, given a chance, or simpy had grown up in a different society, with a different perspective in life.

Open your eyes, and try and understand a little better the country around you...

And if you still can't work it all out for yourself read one of the true stories like "Only 13 - The True Story of Lon" .

Then reappraise your comments, and the type of people you "might" be laughing at and taking a cheap shot at.

Edited September 21, 2007 by fletchthai68

[britmaveric]

17 pages or so is by a Thai who finds prostitution distasteful?

Vast majority do not, now if you differentiate between BKK then you might have smth. Course there is BKK opinion and then rest of thailand.

Edited September 21, 2007 by britmaveric

[fletchsmile]

...

Most were rather lazy, slovenly gals who had no plan to do anything other than make the easiest money possible. The only redeeming quality was that they were consumed by their profession. Even if they 'found' someone they looked like a tart and couldn't keep their eyes from straying toward the next possible customer. They were cunning and most were thieves and liars--keeping a husband/boyfriend upcountry and two or three farangs on the side sending money.

The one thing I never did encounter was one who was "forced" to work as a sex worker. ....

Ever thought how they got that way... what their background was? what they've been taught all their lives? You've been lucky enough to have been brought up with nice thoughts like everyone is equal.

Sure, some may choose this life, but many of them were damaged goods well before they were lucky enough to eat with you, and have been brought up with very different beliefs like: girls are worthless, bringing money to your parents and giving them face thru wealth is more important than your own self worth.

Or perhaps you believe there's some sort of prositution gene. Get real. They are products of their environment, at least as often as the other side of the coin you describe as the end result.

[JonnyF]

But really -- what if some hi-so families had prostitutes in their family tree 10 generations ago? What does that really change? Does that take away the right to find certain things about people distasteful now? If you go back far enough, we all have monkeys in our family tree.

You are missing the point, Thais do not find prostitution distasteful.

How can you say this, when the post we've been discussing for 17 pages or so is by a Thai who finds prostitution distasteful?

She seems quite happy for low class Thai girls to be used as toliets as long as it doesn't interfere with her shopping.

[canadiangirl]

People who don't give a shit what the others around them think, and do what they want to do without caring who they offend -- are often found to be unwelcome in many places, not just Emporium.

[canadiangirl]

But really -- what if some hi-so families had prostitutes in their family tree 10 generations ago? What does that really change? Does that take away the right to find certain things about people distasteful now? If you go back far enough, we all have monkeys in our family tree.

You are missing the point, Thais do not find prostitution distasteful.

How can you say this, when the post we've been discussing for 17 pages or so is by a Thai who finds prostitution distasteful?

She seems quite happy for low class Thai girls to be used as toliets as long as it doesn't interfere with her shopping.

Did you actually read the complete post, not just the snippets people have posted?

If her post is really about a rich disdain for the poor why isn't she looking down on the clerks in the shop, who probably make very little, and probably less than the bargirl?

[JonnyF]

People who don't give a shit what the others around them think, and do what they want to do without caring who they offend -- are often found to be unwelcome in many places, not just Emporium.

So what? If everyone thought that Canadians had no place in Emporium and found them offensive, would you continue to shop there, or crouch under the nearest stone and hide?

Edited September 21, 2007 by JonnyF

[thaigene2]

Check out this post in the rich Thai girl blog "Oh! See what the Cat drags in!" This so-called "journalist" (she seems to write for BK Magazine, but can't even get the name of her own blog right) has a terrible encounter with the country's lower classes and survies to tell about it.

What's really interesting is that this girl is the direct descendant of Thailand's cruelest and most infamous military dictator (and that's saying something) -- Thanom Kittikachorn.

<link removed>

Out in Emporium buying expensive shoes for her mommy, she has a self-described "bitch moment" when confronted with a farang and a prostitute... who have the audacity to be shopping in the same store as her! She goes on to describe prostitutes as "toilets" and can't understand why anybody would want to be seen with such awful creatures.

When she gets a scolding in the comments the best she can come up with is a cruel "me no speaky English" bar-girl style mockery. Totally unable to address the issue.

Great from an anthropological perspective: we get to see how the country's elite, a child of the most vile, murdering rapist of the land, really thinks of the lower castes.

Just to remind everyone of the OP.

This confirms the Ajarn 'Ji" Ungkaporn case that the rich see the poor here as complete ass-wipe. Thailand needs a reconciliation panel before it's too late - but the patronage system makes that virtually impossibile. It comes down to whether you think those being used to wipe the asses are ever going to rebel - and present sociology would suggest 'no they won't' - as much as that sucks...

Londonthai and Mrtoad - I agree with your sentimetns but "no way" on the English class thing. They hate the poor too. And believe me, they do indeed think they are the RULING class. Have absolutely no doubt about that. Absolutely no doubt - in fact londonthai, they see their money as a "coincidence" of their supremecy - not a definition - they are patronising you as a foreigner. And then probably laugh at you - like Thais do to farangs here (muangan).

[canadiangirl]

People who don't give a shit what the others around them think, and do what they want to do without caring who they offend -- are often found to be unwelcome in many places, not just Emporium.

So what? If everyone thought that Canadians had no place in Emporium and found them offensive, would you continue to shop there, or crouch under the nearest stone and hide?

So what? -- you expect to behave as if you don't give a shit about the people around you -- which some would consider not very respectful -- but you feel entitled to their respect? If you don't care about what offends them, is it a big surprise that they wouldn't care for you?

To hear you, you're all budding Rosa Parks, Gandhis and Martin Luther King -- making bold strides for social equality in prejudiced Thailand. But you forget that even in "everyone is equal" farangland -- you wouldn't be well received if you brought an obvious prostitute to a "normal" social occasion.

I'll just repost what I wrote before, because I think it's apropos:

By the fact that I rarely see posters defend the dignity and rights of bargirls in other threads, I can't help but think that the offence some feel has less to do with altruistic concern for the social equality of bargirls and more about feeling judged in their own choice of mate and actions. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see many of you (obviously I don't mean everyone on this thread) speaking up about the multitude of other social inequalities in Thailand -- should I feel impressed at your thirst for social justice when it seems largely reserved for those you'd like to f-?

[meom]

-- you wouldn't be well received if you brought an obvious prostitute to a "normal" social occasion.

What does an obvious prostitute look like?

[fletchsmile]

...

These women were Loso and now they think that they are Hiso because they are married to Farang. Where would they stand in the eyes of the true Hiso Thias?

Cheers, Rick

I've heard Thais refer to them as part of "integration group", i.e there because of an overlap.

[BADBRAD]

Awww Jeez, we're still at this huh? After 18 pages all I can conclude from the posts here and from the original blog is that some people feel that their lives should not be sullied by being forced to shop in the same place as other people whom they deem to be "undesirable." Personally I think that type of attitude is disgusting and reprehensible whether it is displayed in Thailand, Europe, North America, or Outer Space. It is snobbery at best and biggotry at worst. It is time to grow up and realize that we are ALL human beings and should have the right to shop, eat, walk, etc. wherever we want as long as we are obeying the law.

Edited September 21, 2007 by BADBRAD

[JimmyTheMook]

It is time to grow up and realize that we are ALL human beings and should have the right to shop, eat, walk, etc. wherever we want as long as we are obeying the law.

Any truth to the formaldehyde myth ?

[consumerismsux]

Awww Jeez, we're still at this huh? After 18 pages all I can conclude from the posts here and from the original blog is that some people feel that their lives should not be sullied by being forced to shop in the same place as other people whom they deem to be "undesirable." Personally I think that type of attitude is disgusting and reprehensible whether it is displayed in Thailand, Europe, North America, or Outer Space. It is snobbery at best and biggotry at worst. It is time to grow up and realize that we are ALL human beings and should have the right to shop, eat, walk, etc. wherever we want as long as we are obeying the law.

Agree totally but I would prefer to say;

"It is time to grow up and realize that we are ALL human beings and should have the right to shop, eat, walk, etc. wherever we want as long as we are not interferring with the business of others."

[ratchabuild]

I finally read the article that caused all the fuss. Its offensive and dehumanises the bar girls who are dismissed as less than human and with no rights. Hitler did the same with the jews. It arises out of envy of spending power and the bar girls and fat old falangs not knowing their place. For a society that places so much store on knowing where you and others are in the food chain thats a sin. By the same token men the world over assume that all Thai girls are easy. You can &lt;deleted&gt; them for the price of a pint. One of the biggest complaints in other countries about the social habits of Thai girls is that they are not fcukable. All the chat up lines that worked in Patpong have lost there magic in alabama or manchester.

Decent thai women are stigmatised by association and it is a stigma, sleeping with several hundred degenerates for money is a horrible way to make money. Some are forced into it some choose it and some know nothing else. They associate often with the dregs of humanity and many people are offended by having it spill out of the ghettos of patpong and pattaya into mainstream places like emporium. Ostentatious consumption is always offensive.

The posters comments are hurtful and in labelling all sex workers she herself degrades the women. The analogy of the toilet is a good one in the sense of a release but not somewhere to spend your time and life. Yet that is what many men do. They search out the girls for a cheapfcuk and then end up marrying them because of the "Knight on a White charger" syndrome. Many of the men on this forum have partners from bar girl backgrounds and they must find it deeply offensive that somehow their partner is branded and that label will follow her everywhere she goes and other thais will always judge her and find her wanting. But there is a degree of truth in her attacks and thats what offends people. I once tried following the threads of certain posters who have had several relationships. It was funny to see the same patterns. The girls are poor but honest, they should be given a chance, my wife is different I would trust her with my life etc etc.......Then it all goes wrong...shes a bar girl right and married just for the money. Then theres a mass of posts about rip off Thai women and how you cant trust a hooker. Time passes, time passes time passes and then they find another bar girl and the cycle repeats itself. Some are on their third or fourth bar girl and still getting taken for a fool.

I dont like the judging and I dont like the dehumanising. But I dont like it when my wife gets bad service or ignored because they assume that because she is with me she was a bar girl. For a woman who dragged herself up through scholarships to university where she lived on 200 baht a week and hence to a successful career I can understand why she gets annoyed that assumptions are made about thai women because the only thing low life falangs know is that they are a cheap &lt;deleted&gt;. equally she would despise the attitude of the blogger which is deeply un-bhuddist in her judging and lack of any compassion or understanding.

For too many falangs thailand begins and ends with the bar scene perhaps what the blogger is railing against is the way that mindset is making inroads into what was the preserve of the rich, but having said that she finds it offensive that ordinary hard working thais are bowing and scraping to people who are degraded by what they do...and that includes the falangs too.

[BADBRAD]

It is time to grow up and realize that we are ALL human beings and should have the right to shop, eat, walk, etc. wherever we want as long as we are obeying the law.

Any truth to the formaldehyde myth ?

HAHA! You didn't know? That wasn't me in front of the Biograph that night. It was jimmy Lawrence. J. E. Hoover wished he had my junk!

SORRY!

[Pepe']

I would like to comment on this thread but I was once given a vacation for even insinuating that Thai girls were prostituting themselves without mentioning the word prostitute.

Makes ya wonder...

However this prostitute thread is an interesting one.

[Belthazar]

I think that there is so many wrong stereotypes:

1. Thai girl with farang means old man with girl in age of his grand-dauther

I visited Pattaya twice and I of course met couples like that, but I met many men (20-35) with girls in same age talking, laughing - just having fun

2. Thai women are "easy" - I am from country often called "Biggest brothel in Europe", so I know that such a statement is not true, because this is same almost in whole world - some are "easy" some not

3. Thai woman with farang means prostitute with customer

Thas is problem of Thai society and shows disrespect to all Thai women and farangs in general - in Europe we experienced this attitude during WW II. - Germans dating wrong "race"

Somebody wrote:"Farangs speak about femininity of Thai women, but they just want show economical supremacy" (almost completely wrong) I think that problem lies in Europenan women, they are educated and emancipated (no problem with that), but they focus on career etc. and after they are 40 with great job a and want children+husband, they realise very often that nobody wants them.

"Get rid of all bars, go-gos and problem with prostitution is away" - Stop the nightlife for example in Pattaya and this third most popular resort in Thailand will be just usual town with ugly beaches full of empty hotels and shopping malls I personally think that such a stupid action could only lead to chaos with freelancers just everywhere, because lets face it, prostitution will be allways here (Eu, US, Asia, Middle East)