Clutch & Tyre Query

[AlbertTatlockDeceased]

In a recent post, I was given some worthwhile advice about this bikes clutch and engine oil, at the time I could not get the bike into neutral with the engine running, 1st straight to second, 2nd straight back to first.

I thought after adding oil it was solved, however, not so.

At first start (engine cold) I can click back and forth to neutral no problem, however, once the bike is warm, it refuses to go to neutral.

The other noticable thing when it warmed up, if I select 1st with the clutch in, the bike very slowly tries to creep forward, enogh to prevent you from using your feet to pull it back.

As i release the clutch (if it was biting when the lever is pulled) you would logically imagine the bike would immediately begin to move. This is not the case, in fact to get the clutch to biting point the lever is almost at the last 2cm of travel. Any suggestions? What I did discover by accident, if I am at a standstill in 1st or 2nd and give the engine a bit of throttle, I can select neutral, providing I make the change before the bike returns to idle - you have to blip the throttle rather than hold it open constantly.

Lastly, (for now that is) Any ideas on the correct tyre pressures? The ones on mine are some Indonesian 2 star jobbies, with no pressure indication, I have set the fron to 30PSI and the back to 35PSI, seems ok on hard/soft earth and normal tarmac - a bit unnerving at the front wheel on loose dry sand.

Cheers

[canuckamuck]

I don't find it unusual to have give a little bit of throttle to get the bike to pop into neutral I have seen that on other bikes, and on my current bike. But will it go into neutral when the engine is stopped? Mine will if I am delicate, or some times I have to give a little push forward. I think that is just the way it works with those little gears, it's quite different then a car transmission.

I think you do have a bit of a clutch problem though, because your bike pushes a lot when you have the clutch fully engaged. I would have someone have a look at it for you.

About tire PSI, I imagine 33 is the safe zone, of course there will be no way for you to tell with the ones you got. Bikes are always a bit wonky on sand. It just takes a bit getting used to. In my dirtbike days, sand was the cause of a few tumbles. Just be aware of the difference.

[goldfish]

I have little experience of single cylinder bikes. The first thing I would do though is an oil change with fairly decent oil which is suited to a wet clutch. Your clutch, probably, runs in oil as opposed to a dry clutch which doesn't. If this doesn't solve the problem try playing around with the tickover and see if that helps. After that then try blipping the throttle, with the clutch pulled in, and try to hit neutral when slowing down to stop

Tyre pressures? No idea. Did once own an XT500 (in fact I still do stored in a garage in the UK) used to run about 18-20psi. I would do a bit of research on the net, or phone a tyre shop in farangland

[Thumchok]

Would be handy to know if you are talking about a fairly new model , or an old one .

30-35psi sounds way too high for me , unless you are way overweight . Would suggest that you let them down enough to have some give in them with you sitting on it , but not enough that you are going to bottom out the rim . 18-20 may be a little closer .

Is the oil level correct ? Halfway up the glass with the engine stopped ?

First I would change the oil to a fourstroke racing motorcycle oil . Then I would look at pulling the clutch basket out and checking it's ok .

[AlbertTatlockDeceased]

Firstly,

thanks for you replies, Canuckamuck, Goldfish and Thumchock, ( i get into a problem for some reason when trying to "Quote"

Can anyone give me info as to how a "wet clutch" operates? As I mentioned earlier, I am a car person, and OIL and CLUTCHES do NOT MIX!

Canuckamuck...(god you nick is a nightmare!) I can select neutral when I have the engine off, no problem, especially easy when I have just stalled it! ( Stalled it tonight in a ditch, front and back wheel up, feet couldn't touch the ground.... fell on my arse...could hear the laughs from the locals..deafaning..) blip the throttle ..maybe takes a few shots but can get nuetral eventually. (I don't want to get caught on a red light trying to do this).

The queer thing is, it only creeps in 1st, 2nd ..no problem, and in 1st if I blip the throttle, I can pull it back, it is only on tickover that it starts to "creep"

Have meesed around with the idle speed with various results, for some reason, if I set the tickover to be what I feel to be OK, if I then open the throttle gently, it dies and stalls, if I give it a good jerk, it throttles up nicely, seems there is no "in between".

I have already changed the oil (It burns a bit too!) did a run on Sunday, and the front wheel seemed to be drifting..when I got back I checked the wheels and tyres..had about 1 PSI in the front and about 1.5 in the back...hence the tyre pressure question. I will try the tyres at 18-20, as the 30 PSI I have at the moment is very "Unforgiving"...watch out for that speck of dust, the front end jitters like crazy.

Any advice on the clutch - how does this work? why does the engine want to cut out if I increase the throttle slowly, but rev like shit if I wind it on, if it was timing, wouldn't the thing die with a hard REV rather than a progressive gentle increase on the throttle.

and by the way, regards the tyre pressure - I am 54kg, LOL, not a fat bastard, He He! I only guessed at the 30PSI thing - that is why I am being thrown around like a rag doll!

The ###### thing can run with 1 PSI in the tyres, so no problems with punctures... they didn't even appear flat, and when you squeezed them, they didn't look out of shape (unlike my wife) and they remained firm!

Anyway guys, thanks for the help, believe me it is much appreciated, practicing hill starts tomorrow....posts will be from the Chiang Mai Ram ...the blood from the last kick start wound is still dribbling down my leg, but! two weeks ago, I couldn't start this bastard in over an hour, jumping on with both feet, the missus tried and she and the bike ended up on their <deleted>, this week I can sit on it and USUALLY get it started with a kick in one or two goes....patience is a virtue....of which, I , have none!

Cheers

Any of you from the UK?...remeber that slogan in the 70's or 80's?....KEEP DEATH OFF THE ROAD...I believe they had a premonition!

[AlbertTatlockDeceased]

Would be handy to know if you are talking about a fairly new model , or an old one .

30-35psi sounds way too high for me , unless you are way overweight . Would suggest that you let them down enough to have some give in them with you sitting on it , but not enough that you are going to bottom out the rim . 18-20 may be a little closer .

Is the oil level correct ? Halfway up the glass with the engine stopped ?

First I would change the oil to a fourstroke racing motorcycle oil . Then I would look at pulling the clutch basket out and checking it's ok .

Cheers for that, like I said in the abbreviated reply, I am about 54 kg, and didn't bottom them out at 1 PSI - I think you are correct, I need to lower the tyre pressure, 30-35 has "No Forgiveness"

The bike by the way is not a new one, in fact, I think it was a fish when Dinousaurs were developing..actually, it was supposed to be 9 years old, but could be even 17 years old...there poses another question...any idea how to tell the age?......funny how this is turning out, more and more it reminds me of the missus, in fact, the bike reminds me so much of my wife in so many ways....it will as I now suspect, turn out to be a complete waste of time, an expense I can ill afford, (already a pain in the arse after 10K)  an uncomfortable ride, with many repairs needed just to keep it in moderate working order, it will age and depreciate in value dramatically after purchase, all of its hidden faults will suddenly become "visible" and become a problem, and in the near future will require a complete overhaul!. It currently requires excessive lubrication...ahhh  the list goes on!

It will not take care of the home, it will require regular servicing for no good reason.... AND it' will be up for sale soon!...and as I suspect, there will be NO OFFERS!

If I can get it in a reliable state.....VROOM.....OFF I GO!

[madjbs]

Sounds like the clutch needs adjusting or more likely some new clutch parts. Does the clutch slip at all when your rideing it? As for the engine ctting out, im not to sure but it sound like the mixture might be bad. What colour is the tip of your spark plug?

[canuckamuck]

Canuckamuck...(god you nick is a nightmare!) I can select neutral when I have the engine off, no problem, especially easy when I have just stalled it! ( Stalled it tonight in a ditch, front and back wheel up, feet couldn't touch the ground.... fell on my arse...could hear the laughs from the locals..deafaning..) blip the throttle ..maybe takes a few shots but can get nuetral eventually. (I don't want to get caught on a red light trying to do this).

Mr. Tatlock you can call me what you like, i get canuck or mucky a lot.

I think that on top having some clutch issues, you also have some valve problems, this would explain some uneven revving and troubles with the starting and idling. However the carb may also need some work. I imagine, if you had a trusty translator, you should get a shop to go over it for you. Shop work is really cheap, but if you need parts, I have no idea what the process would be like for an import. I have had very good results with repairs I have needed here.

[Thumchok]

Can anyone give me info as to how a "wet clutch" operates? As I mentioned earlier, I am a car person, and OIL and CLUTCHES do NOT MIX!

The working part of the clutch sits in a basket , there will be a series of discs in it . about 7 smoothe steel ones , and about 6 friction plates . The basket holds the friction discs while the inner body holds the steel ones . about six or eight springs force the plates together So that the inner body and outer basket grip and allow the motor to turn the driveshaft in the gearbox . The handlever that you pull will push the outer plate outwards against these springs so allowing the plates to slip . I suspect that you have sticking plates caused by the friction material worn off your clutch plates . perhaps not letting the oil come in between them .

Thats about the best I can describe how it works for you .Here is a vague picture of one . I have no association with this site . http://www.mxdeals.com/basket-clutch-hinson.html

Cheers .

[Richard-BKK]

Do you know if the clutch is ever replaced, this Honda bike is on the market for around 20 years. The good news is that the clutch is not that difficult to replace. I guess that a motorcycle repair shop will charge you less then 3000 Bht and you are all shinny and ready to go.

Also for a few Baht more you can let them look at you carburetor idle mixture, you can always do it yourself....

http://www.motorcycle.in.th/article.php/Ca...-mixture-tuning

[AlbertTatlockDeceased]

Thanks All,

Canuckamuck...your name never gets easier!

You may be right, and I think it may be running a bit rich. There is a black oily deposit on the back mudguard where the exhaust blows out, I don't think it is engine oil as the compression seems good, What I first thought to be "oil burning" maybe in fact the mixture, and as you also mentioned..the valves.

Thumchock, thenks for the link, still baffles me though as to what is actually going on with the clutch, not ready yet to dismantle it though, need to look for a book or two first.

Richard BKK - cheers for that link, there is a wealth of information there, I am going to try and get it looked at at one of the bike shops MIKETHEVIGOMAN suggested, in Chiang Mai, just need to decide how to get it into the pickup!..not ready to ride it up a plank yet!

A lot of it seems to be down to knowing the bike and your tequniche, i.e. I seem to be able to start it first kick now, except when people are watching..then it takes about 40 goes, til the sweat is pouring out along with the blood on my right leg.

Maybe I was a bit carried away when I bought this, it is maybe NOT the bike you should buy as a first time learner, we will see! But the experience is a good laugh.

Seriously though, how long do you think it takes to become reasonably proficient?..am I wasting my time, should I (A) Give Up ( Get something smaller or © Stick with it? At the moment I am tempted to look for something a bit easier, but the other half of me would miss the challenge. I reckon if I can get to grips with this and all it's perculiarities, then it would stand me in good stead as opposed to learning on a 125 automatic, which would really teach me very little.

Busy practicing slow moves, slow starts, and clutch control, the guy that taught me to drive a car said 95% of controlling a vehicle was at low speeds and understanding clutch control..which I must admit has helped me a lot.

I can drive a car/van/lorry almost on auto pilot, WILL THAT HAPPEN WITH TIME AND PRACTICE WITH A BIKE....or is it different?

[madjbs]

I would keep it if I was you. I think its a good bike for a begginer, simple and easy to ride. The only problem is that they can be a little intimidating as they are quite high off the ground. My friend who had never ridden a bike before became "at one" with the bike after ridding 3 or 4 hours a day for about 5 days.

[Richard-BKK]

I would keep the bike, it is powerful enough, when it runs it doesn't gives up easy and service relative easy. Spare parts are easy to get, this model was a few years still in production...

Replacing a clutch sounds like a lot of work, but with the right tools it is easily don and this bike can keep going for many many years

[Pikey]

If the clutch is dragging, it is most likely because the "blades" of the basket have got notched and the plates are getting caught up on the notches rather than moving smoothly. Over time and heavy use of the clutch, the plates "clunk" against the softish aluminium basket and form these notches. This can easily be seen once the clutch cover is off & plates are out - not a massive job. Front exhaust off, drop the right footpeg & engine guard, undo the rear brake pedal master cylinder mount to drop the brake pedal, undo a couple of oil lines (drain the oil first!) and then spin out the clutch cover bolts. To dis-assemble the clutch, take out the 4 bolts holding the clutch springs and pressure plate, stick a washer on 2 of the bolts that came out opposite each other and wind the bolts back in to lock the clutch. Then, (this is the harder bit) break loose the central bolt inside the clutch basket(you will need either a windy gun or to lock the engine from the crank nut accessible through the inspection window on the other side) and then pull out the plates. Get new plates, inspect and gently file the clutch basket if necessary. Reassemble clutch, bang it all back together, treat it to a new oil filter, fill it with 1800cc of decent oil (I use VelOil synthetic - purple top), change the tyre pressures to be around 25/20 rear/front and off you jolly well go. Alternatively, take it to a shop and they should charge around 3 hours labour plus parts but this can depend on how easily the beast comes apart.

If you are in Chiang Mai, PM me and maybe I can help.

Cheers,

Pikey.

[AlbertTatlockDeceased]

Thanks for all you replies,

need to be quick I think, before I get banned.

1: Can't tell the colour of the plug yet, I have four different plug spanners, not one will fit! the clearance / length are all wrong... the length of two are fine, but the learance between the head is not enough to get on the plug.

2: I Agree with two previous posts - mixture and valves - The motor appears to be " hunting" but damned as I try I cannot get the mixture right...despite the good advice. There is also a "clack" on the tappets...needs a look over.

3:Pikey...you mention changing the oil filter...where on earth is that? is it where the 4 screws are that I presumed to be the OIL PUMP... right hand side (brake pedal) four 8mm bolts?

Appreciate all your help!

[Lickey]

Albert, like i said before on your previous post, its very likely warped clutch plates, causing it to creep at tick-over, go see Pikey in Chang Mai, he will sort it for you,

Cheers, Lickey.

[AlbertTatlockDeceased]

If the clutch is dragging, it is most likely because the "blades" of the basket have got notched and the plates are getting caught up on the notches rather than moving smoothly. Over time and heavy use of the clutch, the plates "clunk" against the softish aluminium basket and form these notches. This can easily be seen once the clutch cover is off & plates are out - not a massive job. Front exhaust off, drop the right footpeg & engine guard, undo the rear brake pedal master cylinder mount to drop the brake pedal, undo a couple of oil lines (drain the oil first!) and then spin out the clutch cover bolts. To dis-assemble the clutch, take out the 4 bolts holding the clutch springs and pressure plate, stick a washer on 2 of the bolts that came out opposite each other and wind the bolts back in to lock the clutch. Then, (this is the harder bit) break loose the central bolt inside the clutch basket(you will need either a windy gun or to lock the engine from the crank nut accessible through the inspection window on the other side) and then pull out the plates. Get new plates, inspect and gently file the clutch basket if necessary. Reassemble clutch, bang it all back together, treat it to a new oil filter, fill it with 1800cc of decent oil (I use VelOil synthetic - purple top), change the tyre pressures to be around 25/20 rear/front and off you jolly well go. Alternatively, take it to a shop and they should charge around 3 hours labour plus parts but this can depend on how easily the beast comes apart.

If you are in Chiang Mai, PM me and maybe I can help.

Cheers,

Pikey.

Hi Pikey,

had to wait my 24 hrs due to another ban by the SARIT moderators!

Need to get this in sharpish as no doubt my next post will recieve another ban!

I am about 40K from CM, are you in a bike business? I would like to bring the bike around, get a new clutch, timing, mixture valves etc. checked out, only I wasn't sure if you were in the business or just helping me out... I am not looking for freebies, just looking for a place where I can really get the thing looked over without it being bodged.

I assume I need a new clutch...I think it needs a good look over, what do you reckon on getting parts etc. and what the cost could be?

You come with reccomendations..so that can't be bad.

I wil need to get some help this end to gwt it onto a pick up, can you get it off in CM?

Kind regards

Albert!

I will check back here tomorrow, hope to hear from you, if you are not in business with bikes, would you reccomend that "Big Bike Company in CM?" appaently run by a German? Just need to make sure what I want doing gets done properly!

Thanks

[Pikey]

Albert,

I am with Joe's Bike Team which is indeed run by a German (Joe!) and we specialise in repairing big bikes for the expat community as well as running a fleet of XR250s for rentals. I didn't want to tout for business on this site as 1) we don't need it and 2) I didn't want to get in trouble with the moderators for doing so! I have PM'd you my phone number and sure, we have a ramp so can get it off the pickup no probs.

Cheers,

Pikey.

Edited October 3, 2007 by Pikey