Long Neck Fake Village.

[tayto]

http://www.asiantribune.com/index.php?q=node/7588

Owning a group of Karen is a lucrative business.

“Some Thai made a fake village in Chiang Rai and Chiang Mai, and stole some Karen from here to live there. They charged 1,000 Baht or more for the entrance fee. But, the Mae Hong Song government went down and took them back here already.” Said Som Sak Seta.

All legal residents of Thailand are given some type of an ID card, with various rights attached. Obviously, citizens get the most rights. Legal aliens may be grated rights such as employment or residence. Because the Long Neck Karen in the tourist villages has no legal status, they have no rights of residence, employment, or freedom of movement in Thailand.

[sceadugenga]

Yeah.

I took a couple of mates to CM last week and they wanted to go and gawk at the Karen. I decided I had "other things to do".

I'm extremely uncomfortable with any sort of freak show, particularly ones where people are put under duress to mutilate themselves for public entertainment.

[Joel Barlow]

The "human zoo" (pi-pitapaan manut) is just behind wonderful Doi DinDaeng Pottery, near Ban Pa-O... and quite distressful to potter Khun Somlok and his Japanese wife. Most unfortunate. many backpackers go - showing their true colors!

There are others near the ChiangMai border west of SantiKiri/DoiMaeSalong... or were not so long ago. They are illegal, it is illegal for people to bring them here or show them, but hey, recently at the border I was told by government officials they had no info on my "O" visa in their computers. haven't that kind of info on anybody they say! What then do they look at I wonder?

The ink for the date of expiry ran, so I lost 3 months - 2 months of which they easily could have returned to me, as I had another stamp for them (from when I discovered the DVD shops closed, worried that the bridge would close...)...

This is the a land of kick-backs, and

Law here is clearly selectively enforced. Or how else could Newin of Buriram's Chitchob dynasty make political speeches for Samak's PPP (Palang Prachachon), while bared from politics for 5 years? The newspapers today say Samak could be in trouble for proclaiming himself Taksin's proxy (he isn't - he's just using that for leverage). i expect he'll be our next PM.

Having said all of which, I must admit my own country to be much worse. Try watching some "Indian" dancing sometime...

[goski]

I agree with all of you even though the term "pipitapan manut" would refer to a human museum and after all they're not dead in there I hope!?

[Joel Barlow]

Do things in a museum have to be dead? they typically are, I admit...

or never were alive...

in Thai a zoo is "suan sat" and that just doesn't work with people - even degraded ones.

[goski]

Just use the suan in that case, like in suan ahar, suan pag, suan ngoo, suan nok, suan naam, suan gasetr, suan deg len, suan satarana, suan sanuk, suan dog mai etc etc etc. That´s what the suan bit is for, add manut to that and I think everyone will know what you´re talknig about...

[Joel Barlow]

Nope. Not quite. "Suan manut" means, simply, "As for people"...

Yes, i know, it's a very different way of using language, and hard to get a grasp on...

[goski]

Well, this is going off topic. I guess you can't read Thai, but if you can and you just missed it, the "suan" you are mentioning with the meaning "as for" has a mai eek on the soo sua, the first letter. The "suan" for parks and places doesn´t and this also generates two different pronounciations.

[toybits]

Police have raided Ban Ya Pha about 7 km from Kiew Satai several times and found none of the Long Neck Karens. Seems like there's a mole somewhere that receives big bucks and acts as an Tsunami warning for them duddettes at that village.

The "human zoo" (pi-pitapaan manut) is just behind wonderful Doi DinDaeng Pottery, near Ban Pa-O... and quite distressful to potter Khun Somlok and his Japanese wife. Most unfortunate. many backpackers go - showing their true colors!

There are others near the ChiangMai border west of SantiKiri/DoiMaeSalong... or were not so long ago. They are illegal, it is illegal for people to bring them here or show them, but hey, recently at the border I was told by government officials they had no info on my "O" visa in their computers. haven't that kind of info on anybody they say! What then do they look at I wonder?

The ink for the date of expiry ran, so I lost 3 months - 2 months of which they easily could have returned to me, as I had another stamp for them (from when I discovered the DVD shops closed, worried that the bridge would close...)...

This is the a land of kick-backs, and

Law here is clearly selectively enforced. Or how else could Newin of Buriram's Chitchob dynasty make political speeches for Samak's PPP (Palang Prachachon), while bared from politics for 5 years? The newspapers today say Samak could be in trouble for proclaiming himself Taksin's proxy (he isn't - he's just using that for leverage). i expect he'll be our next PM.

Having said all of which, I must admit my own country to be much worse. Try watching some "Indian" dancing sometime...

[Joel Barlow]

Well, this is rude: "I guess you can't read Thai,"

but forgive me for my imperfect spelling and tones.

The point is, if that's what Thais use, that's what's correct. People recognize Pipitapaan Manut and not Suan Manut - and I bet you are no more able than I to get that 'suan' across by enunciating the tone perfectly!!!

The "Hilltribe Village" at Ban Pa-O has definately had "Long-neck Karen" - for whom the long=necks are mostly just a way of getting money...

[goski]

Guessing is not rude and it's not only the pronounciation, the two "suan" are still two completely different words since they are not spelled the same way. Anyhow, the "pipitapan manut" gets 208 hits on google, "suan manut" gets 1390, written in thai of course. So, getting the message across doesn't seem so difficult after all...

[Crow Boy]

Well, this is rude: "I guess you can't read Thai,"

but forgive me for my imperfect spelling and tones.

The point is, if that's what Thais use, that's what's correct. People recognize Pipitapaan Manut and not Suan Manut - and I bet you are no more able than I to get that 'suan' across by enunciating the tone perfectly!!!

Guessing is not rude and it's not only the pronounciation, the two "suan" are still two completely different words since they are not spelled the same way. Anyhow, the "pipitapan manut" gets 208 hits on google, "suan manut" gets 1390, written in thai of course. So, getting the message across doesn't seem so difficult after all...

Guys please remember that the topic is about the Long Neck Karen not the correct pronunciation of Thai. That topic would be better served in the appropriate forum. I am also stepping in here before anyone starts to get too passionate and oversteps the accepted boundaries of politeness.

thanks

CB

[sceadugenga]

Joel and Goski are long term members of this forum whose topics and posts are often constructive and informative.

The Thai "language" is a mine field up here, even more so than Chiang Mai and many conversations contain a mixture of several languages and dialects.

I'm reminded of a story my Geordie (New Castle, UK) Aunt tells about a visit from her brother with his new wife and her Cardiff mother. The old Welsh lady said that she was enjoying her holiday.

Quote by Auntie "Well I thought she said she'd just got out of Holloway, (the English womans prison), so I asked how long she'd been in jail for". Unquote.

Now that's what I really call a linguistic misunderstanding!!

Sorry moderator, back on topic.

Do the Karen long necked ladies get taller as their necks get longer?

[mumbojumbo]

J

Do the Karen long necked ladies get taller as their necks get longer?

There necks get longer, cuz the rings push there collar bones down-no taller

[Naam]

J

Do the Karen long necked ladies get taller as their necks get longer?

There necks get longer, cuz the rings push there collar bones down-no taller

anatomy is obviously not a science you studied

[toybits]

Actually, he is right! They X-rayed a Padaung woman (Longneck Karen) and found that the colarbone indeed had been pushed down. The neckbones (cervical vertebra) were actually in their normal position - i.e. no dislocation or extension.

J

Do the Karen long necked ladies get taller as their necks get longer?

There necks get longer, cuz the rings push there collar bones down-no taller

anatomy is obviously not a science you studied

[sceadugenga]

J

Do the Karen long necked ladies get taller as their necks get longer?

There necks get longer, cuz the rings push there collar bones down-no taller

I knew that MJ, just checking to see if anybody else did.

[sceadugenga]

J

Do the Karen long necked ladies get taller as their necks get longer?

There necks get longer, cuz the rings push there collar bones down-no taller

anatomy is obviously not a science you studied

Always good to see the well educated Dr Naam honoring our forum with a visit.

[Naam]

J

Do the Karen long necked ladies get taller as their necks get longer?

There necks get longer, cuz the rings push there collar bones down-no taller

anatomy is obviously not a science you studied

Always good to see the well educated Dr Naam honoring our forum with a visit.

being well educated is an advantage but as far as "long necks" and "pushed down collar bones" are concerned using simple logic is sufficient

[sceadugenga]

J

Do the Karen long necked ladies get taller as their necks get longer?

There necks get longer, cuz the rings push there collar bones down-no taller

anatomy is obviously not a science you studied

Always good to see the well educated Dr Naam honoring our forum with a visit.

being well educated is an advantage but as far as "long necks" and "pushed down collar bones" are concerned using simple logic is sufficient

Having read a number of your posts over the past 12 months I'll freely admit that a lot of your logic is beyond me.

[lannaman]

Yeah.

I took a couple of mates to CM last week and they wanted to go and gawk at the Karen. I decided I had "other things to do".

I'm extremely uncomfortable with any sort of freak show, particularly ones where people are put under duress to mutilate themselves for public entertainment.

I was luck to visit a Kareni village on the Burmese side of the border near Mae Hong Son about 12 years ago. The village was way off any tourist trail (as in Burma) and the people there very hospitable and friendly. The women and young girls were extremely proud of their neck rings, and the more they had the more beautiful they thought themselves. They DO NOT consider themselves freaks, it is only greedy Thai exploiters in Thailand that have made them act thus as if they were zoo creatures.

[sceadugenga]

Yeah.

I took a couple of mates to CM last week and they wanted to go and gawk at the Karen. I decided I had "other things to do".

I'm extremely uncomfortable with any sort of freak show, particularly ones where people are put under duress to mutilate themselves for public entertainment.

I was luck to visit a Kareni village on the Burmese side of the border near Mae Hong Son about 12 years ago. The village was way off any tourist trail (as in Burma) and the people there very hospitable and friendly. The women and young girls were extremely proud of their neck rings, and the more they had the more beautiful they thought themselves. They DO NOT consider themselves freaks, it is only greedy Thai exploiters in Thailand that have made them act thus as if they were zoo creatures.

I was under the impression that for a while it was virtually discontinued, but started up in the Thai refugee villages simply as a way of making money. One of the guys that went to look said he saw a couple of girls with open sores where the rings had rubbed them. I hardly think it would be a voluntary thing now.

[Naam]

J

Do the Karen long necked ladies get taller as their necks get longer?

There necks get longer, cuz the rings push there collar bones down-no taller

anatomy is obviously not a science you studied

Always good to see the well educated Dr Naam honoring our forum with a visit.

being well educated is an advantage but as far as "long necks" and "pushed down collar bones" are concerned using simple logic is sufficient

Having read a number of your posts over the past 12 months I'll freely admit that a lot of your logic is beyond me.

would you feel better if i tell that you are not alone but many people share your view?

[chownah]

J

Do the Karen long necked ladies get taller as their necks get longer?

There necks get longer, cuz the rings push there collar bones down-no taller

anatomy is obviously not a science you studied

Always good to see the well educated Dr Naam honoring our forum with a visit.

being well educated is an advantage but as far as "long necks" and "pushed down collar bones" are concerned using simple logic is sufficient

Having read a number of your posts over the past 12 months I'll freely admit that a lot of your logic is beyond me.

would you feel better if i tell that you are not alone but many people share your view?

Yes, I am one of the many people who share this view of his.....I too have the view that alot of your logic is beyond him.

[mcgriffith]

I believe we were discussing the "Long Neck Fake Village". Let us try to keep this thread on topic; discussion of other poster's mental acuity, logic or lack thereof are not only off topic, but will be dealt with via a warning, and/or thread closure. Let's keep it civil and gracious, ladies and gentlemen....

McG

[visionary]

I personally enjoy visiting cultural and historic villages. They provide both an escape and improved understanding of culture and history. I know an Indian woman between 75 and 80 years old that works at a local historic recreation. She is very proud of her lost culture and thoroughly enjoys working there. She earns 14 dollars an hour to sit outside of a tipi and make moccassins. Her moccassins sold at the fort go for 4 times what she would get on the street and she gets to keep all money from sales and photo tips. Many locals also complain that she is participating in a freak show. They claim that it is cruel to have such an elderly woman on public display.

As a ten year leader of an informal native arts coop I know there are some painful factors in the industry. The worst factor is the tourist expectation of conformity to stereotypes. Many tourists complain that participants aren't dark enough, they they aren't ugly enough with misshapen noses or that they aren't authentic because they bathe too much. Tourist expectations undermine confidence and concepts of citizenship. I've known several women that bred themselves to Africans and Orientals in the hope of producing darker more extreme looking bloodlines. One of the women in my coop was married to a Pollock with long black hair , a scarred dark complexion and a large banana nose. Even the Indians adored his features and treated him much better than their peers.

After his separation from my Indian friend he became a profitable professional " aboriginal " artisan selling his goods at native festivals and cultural events.I used to have a hard time containing my laughter as both Indians and tourists ridiculed themselves by seeking deep spiritual insight from him. The Dalai Lama himself wouldn't obtain greater adoration.

The neck ring issue is a difficult one. When parents mutilate their children for profit it is a tragedy with life long consequences for both the mutilated and the culture they belong to. It is a tragedy that occurs across the globe. The greatest moral liability lies with the racist tourists that elevate their personal sense of superiority by demanding the freak show aspect of their travelling experience.

[mark henry]

My wife and i went on a tour to a "long neck" village, can't remember where it was exactley but it was several hours by road from Chang Mai. I never really made any judgements as to wether it was crual or exploitative, i assumed the ring stuff was/is part of their culture and had been happening long before any tourists got there. I thought they looked beautiful and proud.

However, i was some what dissapointed afterwards to learn that the whole village was a fake and the "long neck" folk were brought down from their "real" home to parade about for the tourists! I remember thinking at the time that some thing was not quite right about this village, a bit too tidy and "staged" looking perhaps?

[PeaceBlondie]

On my first trip to Mae Hong Son in summer of 2003, my host thought I would want to go see the nearest Long Neck Village, which is nearby. Hideous. Sorry that I went. A year later I was asked to volunteer at Nai Soi, the village nearest Burma, just outside the Karen refugee camp. My contact said that some of the students at the school had aunts who (voluntarily?) wore the neck rings, and Nai Soi is way too far from the tourist trail to be a tourist camp. In fact, checking now on the map of the loop road to Mae Hong Son, the camp west of Nai Soi is marked "Long Necks" and I don't think it refers to Corona beer bottles.

[sceadugenga]

Was I insulted then? Oh well, what's one more time anyway?

There's interesting reading on the internet on the about the long necked women of the Karen people. A common theory is it started to protect their necks from tiger bites which sounds a bit colorful to me. I'm sure that any hungry tiger would soon find another place to bite if one bit was too tough.

As visionary says it starts with children and must be as uncomfortable or even as painful as the old Chinese custom of foot binding.

[Joel Barlow]

Apocryphical or not, it's been said that only women born under a full moon, originally, wore the rings.

At any rate, it is not a "cultural thing" for all of them to do so, and before tourist money became so important

(due to loss of 'traditional' lands to the Tatmawdaw Burmese army)

the mutalative ring thing was dying out. Or so I've read, in several places.

Wasn't there to verify the whole thing by myself.

Personal experience has clearly shown me that Native "Americans" who display themselves for tourists often endure psychological complications including acute alcoholism.

Some Freak Show Geeks were reputedly well adjusted (the actors in the movie "Freaks" must have been for the most part OK),

but I can't say that the two-headed lady and fish woman at the PawKhun Mangrai festivals looked like they were having a good time! Had to look once (or twice...), but won't be doing that again.

Did note, when I sent my wife in to take a photo for my books, that the MaehongSong 'long-neck' village by the Burma border had no electric lines.