Are The Actions Of The Burmese Monks In Line With The Buddhas Teachings ?

[sabaijai]

The demonstrations were primarily motivated by government fuel price hikes.

[seonai]

oops forgot that part SBJ

[sabaijai]

VIEW: Cry, beloved Burma -U Gambira And Ashin Nayaka

As monks, we believe in alleviating suffering wherever we see it, as part of the vows we have taken. We could not ignore our people’s suffering. We formed the Sangha Coalition when we saw that the country’s monks were united

Religious orders of monks have been the face of Burma ever since Buddhism was introduced here more than 1,000 years ago. For a monk to involve himself in politics or to hold a political post is contrary to the ethical code of Theravada Buddhism. But in Burma today, this spiritual philosophy, rooted in compassion and non-violence, has assumed unexpected dimensions of defiance and recalcitrance, as monks challenge the hegemony of the military junta that rules our country.

We are both Burmese Buddhist monks — a leader of the All Burma Sangha Coalition that led the recent protests, and a scholar teaching in the United States. One of us is in hiding today, because Burma’s military government met the peaceful protests of our Buddhist brothers and sisters with violence and brutality.

Many monks and nuns have been abused and beaten, and thousands who have been arrested endure continued brutality. More than 1,000 are missing, and many are presumed dead.

A few weeks ago, Burma’s monks began to march and pray and spread loving kindness in an effort to solve our nation’s problems peacefully. Burma is a country rich in natural resources, but its people are poor. When the government suddenly and capriciously increased the price of fuel by as much as 500% overnight, everyone was affected — and made even more desperate.

As monks, we believe in alleviating suffering wherever we see it, as part of the vows we have taken. We could not ignore our people’s suffering. We formed the Sangha Coalition when we saw that the country’s monks were united.

Those of us who are studying and teaching abroad share this unity, and have rallied to the support of those of us in Burma. And it is not only the monks who are united. When we started our peaceful marches for change, students, youth, intellectuals, and ordinary people joined us in the streets, in the rain.

We thought that we could appeal to some, if not all, of the generals — Buddhists themselves — who control our country to join us in trying to right the many ills befalling Burma. At first, we tried to show our displeasure with military rule by refusing to receive alms from them. We turned our begging bowls upside down as a gesture of our feelings. We have not lost our loving kindness towards ordinary soldiers, nor even towards the leaders who ordered them to brutalise their own people, but we wanted to urge them to change while there was still time.

We know that some people in the army and organisations close to the regime have been reluctant to use violence against the monks. We want to tell the people who are violent towards their own countrymen to stop and think whether their actions are in accordance with the dharma, whether they are acting for the good of Burma’s people. Some of the soldiers who were ordered to beat us and to stop us from marching actually refused to do so, because they understood the truth of what we were doing.

We hoped to create a way out for the military leaders, a way to start a real dialogue with the people’s leaders and the leaders of ethnic groups, for the unity of the nation. But that hope was short-lived. The regime is now hunting down those who participated in the demonstrations and committing unspeakable acts of violence.

They have attacked monasteries and arrested monks and nuns by force. Guards are everywhere, on all the streets, around the pagodas and residential areas. Wounded demonstrators are reported to have been buried alive in mass graves, and there are confirmed reports of bodies washing ashore in the waterways near Yangon (Rangoon). The regime is brutalising the Burmese people, and lying to the world about its actions.

Brigadier General Kyaw Hsan, a representative of the military, recently told UN Special Envoy Ibrahim Gambari that the marchers in the streets were “bogus monks.” But we are genuine, and thousands of us — from Rangoon, Mandalay, Pegu, Arakan, Magwe, and Sagaing — demonstrated for peace.

Some have said that the uprising in Burma is over. That is what the junta wants the world to think. But we believe that the protests represent the beginning of the end of military rule in our country. The generals who ordered the crackdown are assaulting not only Burma’s people, but also their own hearts, souls, and spiritual beliefs. The monks are the preservers of dharma; by attacking them, the generals attack Buddhism itself.

We know that the international community is trying to help us, but we need that help to be more effective. We thank the many people and organisations abroad who are helping us regain the rights denied to us for more than 40 years. But we also appeal to the international community to make its actions practical and effective.

The military government will do anything to remain in power, and their violent acts must be exposed to the world. They may control the streets and monasteries, but they will never be able to control our hearts and our determination.

U Gambira is the pseudonym of one of the leaders of the All Burma Sangha Coalition; Ashin Nayaka is founder of the Buddhist Missionary Society and a Visiting Scholar at Columbia University

Source: Daily Times, Pakistan

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?p...2-11-2007_pg3_6

[cdnvic]

One unfortunate backlash is that this will definitely rule out any chance of China loosening up control over religious practise in Tibet. Now that they've seen what politically active monks can do.

[Plus]

Plus where have you been??? The monks were peacefully walking to raise attention to the fact that they support a democratic Burma and a stopping of human rights abuse there.

Were they? Have you read translations of any of their banners? I read somewhere in the papers that they took to the streets in protest over killings of some monks earlier.

And the initial public protests were against fuel hikes.

Why do you autoamtically assume that monks protests were political in nature? Unless we know exactly what they did, or tried to do, we can't pass judgments on their actions.

[Mosha]

Weren't/Aren't the Shaolin monks Bhuddist? Were they not a martial order?

Edited November 9, 2007 by Mosha

[seonai]

Sorry Plus maybe my reply sounded off the wall. Basically I believe the initial 'marching' by the monks was regarding fuel hikes but I am also pretty sure that the subsequent days were in protest of the military regime and lack of freedom - their banners said thing like 'May all beings be free and happy'.

Amongst the general concensus of Activist groups/reporters outside Burma the feeling is that the monks were representing the people and 'asking' for change. Sorry for rather long post but to clear this up please read the three examples below:

1.

'More than 100 Buddhist monks marched peacefully Wednesday in a northern Myanmar town noted for its defiance of the country's military rulers, the first large protest since the junta violently crushed a wave anti-government demonstrations.

The monks marched for nearly an hour in the town of Pakokku, chanting a Buddhist prayer that has come to be associated with the pro-democracy cause. They did not carry signs or shout slogans, but their action was clearly in defiance of the military government, as one monk spelled out in a radio interview.

"We are continuing our protest from last month as we have not yet achieved any of the demands we asked for," the monk told the Democratic Voice of Burma, a Norway-based short-wave radio station and Web site run by dissident journalists.

"Our demands are for lower commodity prices, national reconciliation and immediate release of (pro-democracy leader) Aung San Suu Kyi and all the political prisoners," said the monk, who was not identified by name.'

2.

Monks Versus the Military

Kyi May Kaung | September 26, 2007

Editor: John Feffer

Foreign Policy In Focus www.fpif.org

In Rangoon and other cities of Burma, Buddhist monks have confronted the military dictatorship with an unusual technique: they refused to accept alms. In Buddhist tradition, this boycott is the ultimate insult monks can deploy. On September 26, the government finally responded to the monks’ boycott by cracking down on the protests, which attracted as many as 100,000 people at their height. Police reportedly killed one protestor, and arrested as many as 200 monks. The future of the democracy movement in Burma remains unclear.

Throughout the protests, the monks have used the symbols and practices of Buddhism to express their discontent and rally public support. At first only a few monks demonstrated in towns such as Pakokku, where the authorities used hired thugs, now called Swan Arr Shin (Possessors of Strength) to lasso and catch the fleeing monks with lariats. Then the thugs threw the monks in prison where they forced them to disrobe and tortured them. In Pakokku, the monks kept some army officers captive for a few hours, but since then, they have walked through cities and towns silently, observing the Theravada monks’ traditional discipline of silence and downcast eyes. They have also been chanting the Metta Thoke or Loving Kindness Sutra, which sends and shares merit to all living beings. '

3.

' There is a long tradition of Buddhist monks challenging the political status quo. Under the Burmese kings, until the British annexation of Burma in 1886, the Buddhist monks, especially the Thathana Paing or the Buddhist Patriarch, in many instances tried to prevent the worst excesses of the authoritarian kings. They also sometimes took on diplomatic functions, going to neighboring countries such as China, most famously in the 13th century. In the British period, the monks were at the forefront of the independence movement, some sacrificing their lives for the freedom for the country.

The monks of Mandalay, known as the Yahan Pyo (Young Monks) have been active in politics since the 1950s. In 1992, Burmese monks went on strike against the military regime, refusing alms from army families. In the late 1990s, there were incidents in Mandalay where the most sacred Maha Myat Muni image was desecrated. This sacrilege, widely considered a junta provocation, angered the monks and set off riots.'

(source same as above)

[Plus]

Ok, maybe they were asking for release of Aung San Su Kyi, according to a monk in that radio interview. Was he really a monk? Who knows.

I'm sure democracy activists wanted to see the monks campaigning on their side, just like we here presume they did. "Come to be assossiated with pro-democracy cause" suspiciously sounds more like a wishful thinking, though.

The call for spread of loving kindness can be interpreted in various ways - maybe they wanted the generals to be more gentle rather than NLD to take over the country.

I'm sorry, but I'm not convinced that the monks wanted to overthrow the junta and establish democracy. There's a strong chance that they actually wanted to preserve the status quo and simply improve people's conditions.

[seonai]

It's very clear to me that the monks want big change but your point is interesting Plus... I don't know, I just don't like it when people are being hurt and I support anyone who wants to stop pain

[Brucenkhamen]

I'm sorry, but I'm not convinced that the monks wanted to overthrow the junta and establish democracy. There's a strong chance that they actually wanted to preserve the status quo and simply improve people's conditions.

While I've heard of their being a few government agents amongst the monkhood why on earth would they want to preserve the status quo? Sounds like a pretty daft interpretation of events to me. Yeah right, like everyone loves to live under a brutal dictatorship.

[Plus]

I don't know. The only English banner I saw was "Loving kindness wins all". Hardly a call for overthrow of the junta.

Asking for lower commodity prices doesnt' qualify either.

This thread will go nowhere unless you know exactly what happened and I think it's better to leave it that way than build elaborate theories about monks and politics based something that might have never happened in the first place.

[seonai]

It is clear from the evidence I posted what actually 'happened' - the monks want change. There are thousands of blogs out there stating just that - I am not going to do your research for you! Plus I'm a member of the Free Burma Campaign and, no matter what you imagine, the monks - just like other citizens there - want change...

[Plus]

From the evidence you posted nothing is clear at all. At best it quotes one anonimous monk (alleged monk) on a foreign radio.

The easiest way would be to translate the banners they were carrying.

Maybe an assumption that they demanded a regime change is correct. I don't know, it's just an assumption so far.

[seonai]

Well I've tried... you are entitled to your opinion. I just don't understand how much more convicing you want or why you are even in this conversation. It is a fact that the monks want and support change in Burma. End of

[Brucenkhamen]

From the evidence you posted nothing is clear at all. At best it quotes one anonimous monk (alleged monk) on a foreign radio.

The easiest way would be to translate the banners they were carrying.

Maybe an assumption that they demanded a regime change is correct. I don't know, it's just an assumption so far.

Ask yourself this, is getting better petrol prices worth dying for? I suspect you'll agree the answer is no.

Then ask yourself what they might want that they are willing to put their lives on the line for. I think then you'll find the answer is obvious.

[seonai]

Thanks Bruce I was starting to wonder there ... it's totally obvious

[seonai]

Well it's been on the BBC all day/night with interviews with real monks too - the protests were and will be again, by monks and lay people, for change in Burma. To answer the OP - I think 'yes' it is in line with Buddhist teachings which have to take into account the changes over the years. If you look at some of the original 'vows' for monks (written many many years after the Buddha's death) - some of the laws are totally not appropriate now. Such as having to pee (sorry) sitting down.

The Burmese monks want change and are now prepared to risk their lives again to help the people of Burma

[Plus]

If they really demanded political change you'd have no problem finding a couple of quotes somewhere, including from interviews with monks on BBC, they are fairly easy to find, I expect.

Most of the stuff in the media is not coming from monks, however, it doesn't quote monks, and it doesn't spell monks' actual demands.

The initial protests were undeniably about high commodity prices, not regime change, and several monks were reportedly killed. Was it worth dying for? I don't know, I don't think they expected to be murdered.

Subsequent marches could have been first in protest over those killings, and pro-democracy activists jumped along and sort of hijacked it.

Think about it. At which point did these fuel-price protests turned political? Did the monks inititated that transition?

What is obvious is that the emperor appears somewhat short of clothes.

[seonai]

And your point (Plus) is...???

[Plus]

My point is that unless you know what the "actions of Burmese monks" are, you can't judge whether they are "in line with Buddhas teachings" or not. See the topic title.

If they asked the government, which happens to be a junta at the moment, to rule with a gentle hand and show compassion towards their own people, I think that would be in line if not with teachings then at least with established practice. They are supposed to counsel the government, aren't they?

If they demanded government's overthrow, it's a totally different matter and even more detailed information is needed. I seriously doubt that they had any political plan in mind, how it was supposed to play out and what was supposed to happen next. I seriously doubt they would take to the streets without a plan.

[chownah]

Even if you fully understand what actions the various monks took at various times you really need to know what the Buddha taught if you want to know if what they did was in line with what he taught. This thread seems to be at least recently focused on what they did or did not do........does anyone want to focus a bit on what the Buddha taught that might be relevant to the situation. We don't need to prove what actions the monks took or didn't take...we can start with a hypothetical assumption and discuss what teachings are appropriate.

For instance. Let's start with the assumption that some monks were asking for lower gas prices. What teaching would apply here. Or, let's start with the assumption that some monk wanted to overthrow the gov't. What teaching would apply here. What about carrying signs around to achieve any particular purpose...what teachings mighty apply to that sort of action in general? This is a Buddhism forum so how about looking at the Buddhist teaching angle to this and let the political aspect slip into a more theoretic mode.

Chownah

[pete_r]

I will take the Burmese generals angle: If the monks were asking only for lower fuel prices, would the generals have cracked down on the protests so hard?

I doubt it, therefore my conclusion is that the monks were asking for more, making demands that the generals could not accept, nor even negociate (read: regime change).

[chownah]

I will take the Burmese generals angle: If the monks were asking only for lower fuel prices, would the generals have cracked down on the protests so hard?

I doubt it, therefore my conclusion is that the monks were asking for more, making demands that the generals could not accept, nor even negociate (read: regime change).

Pete_r,

So, is this in line with the Buddha's teachings or not. This topic is about whether actions taken by monks is in accord with the Buddha's teacings. All that you have given us is political analysis. This is not a forum for politics....it is a forum for Buddhism. Can you give us some insight about how the Buddha's teaching relate to this?

Chownah

[Brucenkhamen]

So, is this in line with the Buddha's teachings or not. This topic is about whether actions taken by monks is in accord with the Buddha's teacings. All that you have given us is political analysis. This is not a forum for politics....it is a forum for Buddhism. Can you give us some insight about how the Buddha's teaching relate to this?

I'd be interested to know about the reported act of the monks turning over their bowls to the government and military officials, the idea being that they were not worthy to give alms to the monks.

Does anybody know if there is anything in the teachings on this? has there been any precedent for it? It's obviously taken a long time for the monks to take this stand so not entered into lightly.

From what I've seen in Thailand powerful and selfish people who exploit others like to use giving to the monks as a way to "buy their way back into heaven", no reason to suppose Burma is any different. If the monks are continuing to refuse alms from them maybe they'll get the message.

As Chownah says we aren't looking at if or why they did it so much as what are the teachings that support the act.

[pete_r]

I will take the Burmese generals angle: If the monks were asking only for lower fuel prices, would the generals have cracked down on the protests so hard?

I doubt it, therefore my conclusion is that the monks were asking for more, making demands that the generals could not accept, nor even negociate (read: regime change).

Pete_r,

So, is this in line with the Buddha's teachings or not. This topic is about whether actions taken by monks is in accord with the Buddha's teacings. All that you have given us is political analysis. This is not a forum for politics....it is a forum for Buddhism. Can you give us some insight about how the Buddha's teaching relate to this?

Chownah

Another poster earlier was trying to make the point that "we" (well, he at least) don't know what where the monks' exact demands, therefore it was futile to discuss if these demands were in line with the Bhudda's teaching. My post was aimed at defining what were these demands, based on the generals' reaction to them.

Now that this point is out of the way, my view on the monks' actions is that they do follow the Buddha's teaching of compassion for other human beings, by demanding improvements for the Burmese society, but at the same time they contradict the Buddha's teaching of freeing oneself of desires, since by protesting they are expressing a desire for political change. So the answer to the opening question is down to personal interpretation, depending on which teaching one sees as more important: My personal inclination is on the compassion side (which is concerned with others, whereas freedom from desire is more concerned with oneself, to explain briefly), therefore my answer would be yes, the actions of the Burmese monks are in line with one of the more important teachings of Buddha. Conversely, I expect someone who sees freedom from desires as more important, would answer that the monks' actions are mainly not in line with Bhuddha's teaching.

Edit: Spelling

Edited November 26, 2007 by pete_r

[chownah]

I will take the Burmese generals angle: If the monks were asking only for lower fuel prices, would the generals have cracked down on the protests so hard?

I doubt it, therefore my conclusion is that the monks were asking for more, making demands that the generals could not accept, nor even negociate (read: regime change).

Pete_r,

So, is this in line with the Buddha's teachings or not. This topic is about whether actions taken by monks is in accord with the Buddha's teacings. All that you have given us is political analysis. This is not a forum for politics....it is a forum for Buddhism. Can you give us some insight about how the Buddha's teaching relate to this?

Chownah

Another poster earlier was trying to make the point that "we" (well, he at least) don't know what where the monks' exact demands, therefore it was futile to discuss if these demands were in line with the Bhudda's teaching. My post was aimed at defining what were these demands, based on the generals' reaction to them.

Now that this point is out of the way, my view on the monks' actions is that they do follow the Buddha's teaching of compassion for other human beings, by demanding improvements for the Burmese society, but at the same time they contradict the Buddha's teaching of freeing oneself of desires, since by protesting they are expressing a desire for political change. So the answer to the opening question is down to personal interpretation, depending on which teaching one sees as more important: My personal inclination is on the compassion side (which is concerned with others, whereas freedom from desire is more concerned with oneself, to explain briefly), therefore my answer would be yes, the actions of the Burmese monks are in line with one of the more important teachings of Buddha. Conversely, I expect someone who sees freedom from desires as more important, would answer that the monks' actions are mainly not in line with Bhuddha's teaching.

Edit: Spelling

The concept of compassion as used in the Buddha's teachings is probably not the same as the run of the mill garden variety compassion as used in western literature and thought. The Buddha never indicated that political activism (or political activity of any kind) was appropriate for monks. So while it sounds good to say that the Buddha taught to have compassion and so being politically active is acceptable as an act of compassion....but....I've never seen anything in the Buddha's teachings that even remotely is like a monk carrying a sign and agitating for political change....on the contrary monks are supposed to be somewhat withdrawn from worldly things in most of what I've read in the Buddha's teachings. This doesn't mean I have an answer on this but I'm just trying to say that your idea as presented so far doesn't seem to be grounded in a direct understanding of the Buddha's teachings.....but maybe I'm wrong as this is only my own view.

Did you know that the Buddha compiled a long long list of rules for monks to follow (more than 200 rules) and was quite explicit on what was acceptable behavior and what was not?

Chownah

[phibunmike]

Did you know that the Buddha compiled a long long list of rules for monks to follow (more than 200 rules) and was quite explicit on what was acceptable behavior and what was not?

Chownah

Chownah,

Do you happen to know if that list is available (in English) on the internet?

Thanks,

Mike

Edit> I'm guessing the answer is "no", or you probably would have put a link....

Edited November 26, 2007 by phibunmike

[camerata]

The easiest one to read is the Guide for Laypeople. Otherwise try here.

[pete_r]

The concept of compassion as used in the Buddha's teachings is probably not the same as the run of the mill garden variety compassion as used in western literature and thought. The Buddha never indicated that political activism (or political activity of any kind) was appropriate for monks. So while it sounds good to say that the Buddha taught to have compassion and so being politically active is acceptable as an act of compassion....but....I've never seen anything in the Buddha's teachings that even remotely is like a monk carrying a sign and agitating for political change....on the contrary monks are supposed to be somewhat withdrawn from worldly things in most of what I've read in the Buddha's teachings. This doesn't mean I have an answer on this but I'm just trying to say that your idea as presented so far doesn't seem to be grounded in a direct understanding of the Buddha's teachings.....but maybe I'm wrong as this is only my own view.

Did you know that the Buddha compiled a long long list of rules for monks to follow (more than 200 rules) and was quite explicit on what was acceptable behavior and what was not?

Chownah

I think we are taking different approaches.

You propose to go back to the letter of the law, to the 227 rules of behaviour and other written teachings, and to check if the actions of the Burmese monks are "lawful" or not, according to these rules.

My post merely proposed a personal answer to the opening question, based on my personal inclination for, and interpretation of, the Buddhist teaching of compassion.

[chownah]

Did you know that the Buddha compiled a long long list of rules for monks to follow (more than 200 rules) and was quite explicit on what was acceptable behavior and what was not?

Chownah

Chownah,

Do you happen to know if that list is available (in English) on the internet?

Thanks,

Mike

Edit> I'm guessing the answer is "no", or you probably would have put a link....

The rules are indeed available in English and sorry that I was too lazy to give one before and since you requested it here is a link which I think is a good one:

The Bhikkhus' Rules

A Guide for Laypeople

The Theravadin Buddhist Monk's Rules

compiled and explained by

Bhikkhu Ariyesako

Which can be found at:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors...ide.html#vinaya

Chownah

P.S. I'm not very knowledgeable on the monk's rules but just to give people the flavor of some of these, here is an excerpt talking about how a monk should behave when in public:

"When in inhabited areas, I will... wear the under and upper robe properly; be properly covered; go well restrained as to my movements; keep my eyes looking down; sit with little sound [of voice]."

"When in inhabited areas, I will not... hitch up my robes; go or sit laughing loudly; go or sit fidgeting; swing my arms; shake my head; put my arms akimbo; cover my head with a cloth; walk on tiptoe; sit clasping the knees." (See BMC pp. 490-494)"

Chownah

P.P.S. Just so that people understand where I'm coming from....I don't really care what monks do....my view is that it is up to them to decide what to do. My focus on these rules is just to help to provide a meaningful discussion of the original question of this thread which is whether the monks' behaviour in Burma during the demonstrations was according to the Buddha's teaching or not.

Chownah

Edited November 26, 2007 by chownah