Can Employer Keep Foreign Passport?

[canadiangirl]

Since this is an OJT requirement through a school, have the students talk to their school about this.

Not condoning it, but I'll guess the resort has had problems in the past with workers.

Question for the OP.

Are the students worried about this, or is it just you?

If the school used this resort before, the students may have been told to expect this.

I just re-read the original post and answered that last bit. They aren't here yet, and apparently have been told about the resort holding the passports. I would suggest that if it is the students that are concerned about this, they ask for another location to do the OJT at.

Yes, the students have been told to expect this, but they have no choice. They are told at gun point to either accept waiving off basic civil liberties or to forget about their entire education. They have paid extremely high fees for 4 years of attending college and if they complain, they will be unable to finish their education and need to start from scratch.

As I originally come from a communist country from Eastern Europe where we battled for freedom for years and were willing to risk out lives for it on a daily basis, I value human rights highly and I do know that civil rights are not tangible.

Just a few hours ago I had another discussion with my girlfriend. I told her she needed to have a passport whenever police would stop her as this is the law in Thailand. She told this to the agent of the employer/school and was given this answer that freaked me out: 'there is no need to leave the resort. You will be provided with a place to stay and food.' Heck, is it 2007 or 1507!?

What if there is an emergency? A family emergency where she might have to return home quickly, and the person who keeps the passports isn't around? What if there is a natural disaster and she needs to leave? Prove her citizenship?

Where is the school in this? Can they not say anything to the employer? It seems to me that the university should be defending the rights of their students, not sending them away to be basically slaves.

Oh, man, what a tough one. I feel for your friend. She is lucky to have you in the country to help her, but it's still a rubbish situation, especially for her fellow students who might not be lucky enough to know someone in country.

A woman here was talking to me about the situations of Phillipino maids that come to Canada to work -- and that's what their employers do -- keep their passports, then ask them to work unpaid overtime, sometimes there is sexual harrassment or assault, bad conditions, etc. It's de facto slavery.

But ... is there a Philippines embassy in Thailand? At worse, could she claim that her passport was stolen at her embassy, and get a new one she could leave the country with, if necessary?

[maipleur]

"Just a few hours ago I had another discussion with my girlfriend. I told her she needed to have a passport whenever police would stop her as this is the law in Thailand. She told this to the agent of the employer/school and was given this answer that freaked me out: 'there is no need to leave the resort. You will be provided with a place to stay and food.' Heck, is it 2007 or 1507!?"

I would tell her not to go.. It seems really weird.. What is the name of the hotel?, maybe some of us here have "good friends" in the right places and check more into it for you. There are members on this forum who work and run major Hotel chains etc.

Might be worth you spelling it out clearly.. I have a bad feeling and go along with most of the posters observations.

[Jim Abbott]

Perhaps you should contact the US Dept of Labor....Ooops nevermind

[ajarnmark]

My girlfriend from the Philippines and a group of 20 Filipino college students will be visiting Thailand next month for a period of six months to work in a resort in the South of the country. Their work is part of an OJT - On Job Training - that is required to finish their hotel school education. They have obtained proper visas and will apply for work permits once here so they will be 100% legal, of course.

However, I was told that once they arrive here they will need to give their passports to their employer and will only be able to get them back once they have completed their job after 6 months. If they would ask for their passport ahead of time, they would need to resign from the job first.

I am not sure if the people in charge of this are aware of how bad this thing is so I am looking at a way of telling them that they have no right to keep the worker's passports or documents at all. They argue that a copy of the pasport will be sufficient as an ID, but of course that is just a scam.

According to law, one must carry original passport and work permit (if applicable) at all times and should produce it on demand. However, in practice a copy of each works fine. BTW, who told you that this is a scam?

Is there any public documentation available that does say that foreigners do need to be in the possession of their original passport at all times?

I want to approach this problem with diplomacy to make sure the students will keep their jobs and be able to move around freely and with dignity.

As far I could figure it out, the place wants her to surrender passport to make sure that she is not going to work anywhere else. This is very popular among Filipinos and Burmese to get a work permit and proper visa and switch the job, so the employer who did hard work (documentation etc) gets nothing, therefore they want you to surrender work permit and passport.

Some places do not require you to surrender your passport and therefore, you can keep your passport all the time and they only retain work permit.

I do not see anything wrong in this if they are willing to give you passport for few days on request.

[Amethyst]

Well if the contract these trainee signed says that their employer will be keeping their Philippine passport than it can be done ... Most of the philipines worker in Singapore their passport is kept by the bosses or companies they work with

this method is done so that the worker would not run away to another employee or leave their job and go back to their home country without any noticed

Edited October 9, 2007 by tytus

[midas]

AFAIK there is no such law. You are required to have photo ID by law. Hotels as a routine keep the passports of people staying with them in border areas and passports are regularly provided to Consulates for visa issue and such.

Lopburi on the few occasions anywhere in the world that I have been asked to " deposit " my

passport i have totally rejected the request and everytime they have backed down.

They are welcome to have a copy but NO ONE is going hold onto my passport

particularly in this day and age of identity theft ?

[canadiangirl]

Well if the contract these trainee signed says that their employer will be keeping their Philippine passport than it can be done ... Most of the philipines worker in Singapore their passport is kept by the bosses or companies they work with

this method is done so that the worker would not run away to another employee or leave their job and go back to their home country without any noticed

Well, employers want any number of things, some of them reasonable, some of them ridiculous -- it doesn't mean they should get them, especially when it involves their employees surrendering their basic rights.

[canadiangirl]

Do you know how the other students in her group feel?

If they all feel similarly, perhaps they can talk to the school as a group, and put pressure on the school that way -- the school should really be looking out for the interests of its students, not those of the employer. I'm guessing it wants to present its students as attractive employees to get employers to sign up for their job training program -- but c'mon, you should be selling your students as slave labor!

If the school is a private program (as suggested by the high tuition that you mentioned), then surely it cares about attracting students in order to make money. It must be susceptible to some pressure, perhaps bad publicity about the situation of forcing students to give up their rights in order to graduate.

I would just be so alarmed if an employer asked me to surrender my passport to them! And especially if I was a Phillipino woman, in a region of the world with so much human trafficking, and so much abuse of migrant workers.

Your friend is so lucky to have you. I really hope there is a solution where she can get work experience, graduate, and not her to give up her passport and put herself into so much danger.

[bina]

warning bells galore...

its illegal here, but employers do it to prevent the workers from running away... we all have to have id on us here so passport is a must... and ojt?? we have nepalese workers oops students here (not where i live) learning about irrigation and farming techniques and guess what: they went to complain that they were being over worked, didnt get the courses they were supposed to get, but just work, werent allowed out of the greenhouse compound etc etc etc....

cheap labour disguised as training....

bina

israel

[Jim Abbott]

Filipinos Burmese and the like are no doubt used to this procedure and don't bat an eye. It's only when a westerner is alerted to this practice that red alert sounds off. It's that westerner, human rights and fair labor practices rearing its ugly head where it dont belong. I see the girl being dismissed the second someone starts raising a stink about this passport thing

[canadiangirl]

Filipinos Burmese and the like are no doubt used to this procedure and don't bat an eye. It's only when a westerner is alerted to this practice that red alert sounds off. It's that westerner, human rights and fair labor practices rearing its ugly head where it dont belong. I see the girl being dismissed the second someone starts raising a stink about this passport thing

What a load of bull.

Fillipinos being used to it? Perhaps. But perhaps that's also why there's story upon story of migrant workers in SEA being abused, taken advantage of, trafficked, underpaid, not paid at all, injured in unsafe work conditions and/or killed.

Would you willingly surrender your passport to an employer in a foreign country?

Sorry, but human rights belong everywhere you find human beings.

[applesple]

Then she would like to come to TRAIN in Thailand because of she have Boyfriend here.

You say to get Work Permtit is not hard, May i ask you, did you ever do it yourself? Work permit is need Visa to run by, Work permit not expired if passport lost but expired if Visa expired. If you let's your Visa expired, isn't it mean your Work permit expire?

How can she go KL for 1 day off, do you really serious to go KL on 1 day off? She come for training, Right? When she would like to go out of Country, she will need to tell her employee anyway.

Do you really ask them yourself why they would like to keep her passport or you just heard from her? She must have copy of her passport with her anyway or you take your passport in your pocket all day all night?

Up to you then just tell her, don't give her passport to them as my Boyfriend know everything, he will get em workpermit, extend visa and report every 90days. Simple:P

[mattias33]

Filipinos Burmese and the like are no doubt used to this procedure and don't bat an eye. It's only when a westerner is alerted to this practice that red alert sounds off. It's that westerner, human rights and fair labor practices rearing its ugly head where it dont belong. I see the girl being dismissed the second someone starts raising a stink about this passport thing

What a load of bull.

Fillipinos being used to it? Perhaps. But perhaps that's also why there's story upon story of migrant workers in SEA being abused, taken advantage of, trafficked, underpaid, not paid at all, injured in unsafe work conditions and/or killed.

Would you willingly surrender your passport to an employer in a foreign country?

Sorry, but human rights belong everywhere you find human beings.

When i worked as an traveling engineer in Sweden (1,5 year ago) our company always had 2 passports for every employee. They gave us one when we traveled somewere. If we needed a holiday we had to go in to the office and get the passport.

Human rights????? For the employer holding your passport, you bring up HUMAN RIGHTS???

By the way, in our case why the company held our passports (and also applied for one exctra for all of us) was that they send them away and applied for visas. If i where in Thailand for instans and a job came up were i was needed in Ghana after this, company could send passport two and apply for visas while i was in Thailand with passport one. When we came home i hand in passport one, took passport 2 and traveled.

Holding passport can be right sometimes, and wrong sometimes, but human rights.....well,whatever. I find it harder and harder to take you seriously canadiangirl, hahaha. Sorry.

[jstumbo]

By the way, in our case why the company held our passports (and also applied for one exctra for all of us) was that they send them away and applied for visas. If i where in Thailand for instans and a job came up were i was needed in Ghana after this, company could send passport two and apply for visas while i was in Thailand with passport one. When we came home i hand in passport one, took passport 2 and traveled.

When you went to Ghana, did the company go to the airport with you and handle your passport the entire trip, never letting you have your passport while you are out of your home country? Would you give your passport to whatever company in Ghana your company was doing the business for? Let them hold on to your passport and hope that they will give it back to you when you leave Ghana?

[mattias33]

By the way, in our case why the company held our passports (and also applied for one exctra for all of us) was that they send them away and applied for visas. If i where in Thailand for instans and a job came up were i was needed in Ghana after this, company could send passport two and apply for visas while i was in Thailand with passport one. When we came home i hand in passport one, took passport 2 and traveled.

When you went to Ghana, did the company go to the airport with you and handle your passport the entire trip, never letting you have your passport while you are out of your home country? Would you give your passport to whatever company in Ghana your company was doing the business for? Let them hold on to your passport and hope that they will give it back to you when you leave Ghana?

As a matter of fact. In Ghana (only time it happende in 12 years traveling) we all needed to leave our passports in the worksite since they needed it in case police come checking (foreign peolple without work permit in Ghana, hired in Sweden) and also they did not recomend to either carry it around or leave it in the hotel so the safest thing were leaving it on the work.

Even thoug your post backfired i see where you are coming from, and thats also why i added that sometimes its right sometimes its wrong thing in the previos post.

But i do think Jimabbot has a good point.

[VBF]

AFAIK there is no such law. You are required to have photo ID by law. Hotels as a routine keep the passports of people staying with them in border areas and passports are regularly provided to Consulates for visa issue and such.

I realise it's not a border area, but there's a hotel in Pattaya that has a sign on Reception saying "We will keep your passport safe for you". I always pick mine up when I've checked in and categorically refuse their kind offer However I do pay for 2 or 3 nights "up front" to allay their fears that I might trash the room or run away without paying!!! As another poster said, in these days of ID theft, I guard my passport (which is actually HM Government property) very carefully indeed.

[jmac]

My next door neighbor in Pattaya, when in university, went to Canada for English language study as part of her studies with a group. The school in Canada held all their passports for them while they were in Canada. This practice is more widespread than many people believe. Right or wrong.

BTW, I was in a auto accident (a passenger) in a central province in Thailand 80 km from where I was staying, and was injured. All I had was a copy of all the pages of my passport. I was told to report to the police station and was not allowed to go the hospital as I only had copies of my passport which the police officer ripped up in front of me and said no good. That was the extent of English there and as I had been in the country for 1 month, I did not speak any Thai. After 6 hours I was released and made my to the hospital, but had to return within 2 days with the original passport, which I then had to get the same pages copied for the same officer that ripped them up. That was almost 3 years ago.

[britmaveric]

Like it or not - no choice on the matter from the OP description.

1. Make a fuss, no job, and doesnt graduate.

2. Work 6mo and graduates.

It's not ideal, but seems 2 is the only option.

[mattias33]

Like it or not - no choice on the matter from the OP description.

1. Make a fuss, no job, and doesnt graduate.

2. Work 6mo and graduates.

It's not ideal, but seems 2 is the only option.

And fact being the people i this thread care probably more about this girl leaving her passport than she do herself. We western people have a way of making things more complicated than they should be. In these pages i even read serious things like "human rights" !!!!

This is getting realy redicolus now.

Leave her alone and let her graduate.

[TerryLH]

"According to law, one must carry original passport and work permit (if applicable) at all times and should produce it on demand."

This is not true regarding the work permit. The warning in the back of the WP says you must keep it with you or at the place of employment during working hours.