Flash Flood kills 4 Swiss, 2 Thai, 1 German and 1 Brit In Surat Thani

[Galong]

But the British couple were oblivious to the risks when they set out from their simple cottages at Bamboo House

The company that lead this trip was Bamboo Company

Might I inquire as to your source of this information?

The news article cites Bamboo House in Surat Thani:

Lonely Planet Guide on Bamboo House

while you reference Bamboo Company:

Bamboo Company Tours website which is located in Trang, but does describe doing Kao Sok tours on their website.

Are these two entities connected? Or are you referencing a different Bamboo Company than the one above?

My source was the manager of Grai Son floating bungalows on the reservoir. I asked more than once if he was sure about the name. He said yes.

Thanks for the correction. In retrospect I should have checked more sources before my statement... sorry. I'm very upset right now.

Thank you for your response.

Do you know if the Bamboo Company is the same as the website given above?

Hi John, sorry, no I don't know for sure. I think it's best that I don't assume that they are. Sorry again for potentially pointing the finger at the wrong folks.

I've been approached by a government agency to help design guidelines for this activity. I have some other connections in the gov that I'll approach with my program.

Luckily, it doesn't take a whole lot more effort to do it right. Maybe these guides honestly didn't know about the potential for a flash flood. If so, it is imperative that all guides who enter realize what can happen and what they can do to prepare for such an event. One thing about this cave that is nice is that it has a very high ceiling. Worst case scenario, climb up. I don't know if that's what the woman who survived thought, but luck was with her this time. I can't imagine what she must have went through... she may need some medical help in order to get over her ordeal. I hope she's strong.

Let's keep our fingers crossed that the gov is serious about this and that they'll take the steps necessary to help prevent this from happening again, because if things don't change, this accident will certainly repeat itself.

Thanks...

[Galong]

as reported earlier, i believe that the cave is currently closed.

I've been told by the manager of Grai Son Bungalows that the whole park is closed until they can figure out how to handle this and what to do to prevent it from happening again.

I don't see the need to close the entire park and I don't know if this applies to the river area of Khao Sok as well (I was told this is closed now too), but at least they're finally aware of the dangers.

[ThailandTony]

Thanks to Galong, Donna and others for insight into professional guiding and the conditions/lack of training that prevail here in Thailand. I believe the press have been getting some of their information by reading this thread as is obvious by the references to warnings passed between tour groups arriving at and leaving the cave, originally posted by Donna. I for one will take more responsibility for ensuring that any tour I go on in future will have to address any awkward questions about safety & equipment and voice any concerns to fellow tourists in order to make informed decisions.

My references to tarring were meant at those posters who started rolling up air crashes, boats capsizing and outright murder with what in this case is more a question of judgment and ability of the tour company(s) & guide(s). I add the plural reference based on the earlier posts suggesting this was the 3rd tour of that day to enter the cave!? I can't help but feel that passing 2 successful groups on their way out would have had an opposite effect to any warnings, verbal or signed, based on the human intuition "hey they were ok, so why won't we be". Without the level of training & experience that Galong & Donna have been able to give us insight on, the fact it had been raining (or not?), would have been outweighed by the exiting tour guides/groups.

I have to say that the Thai political arse covering that is played out in the press after this type of tragedy is particularly distasteful. Saving face and not attributing/accepting blame on behalf of officials is far more important than getting to the truth. But I don't think this is particularly unique to Thailand, just more prevalent at all levels of administration here, whereas in the West, typically, somebody would at the least take responsibility, and at best be prosecuted for their negligence.

Finally, I don't know how it works at this location, but at every National Park I have ever visited, the park relieves every farang tourist of 300-400 baht for entry, is that the case here? They also have uniformed rangers at strategic places around the park, again any ideas here? Unfortunately, in this case, no amount of lamps, batteries, trekking sandals or anything else would have saved these poor souls. Lack of management & training and a fair sprinkling of greed and face saving were probably the biggest contributors.

I hope something good comes of this tragedy, otherwise we have just had another example of how cheap life is in Thailand....RIP

[george]

Update:

Surat Thai tourist dead identified as Swiss, British, German

SURAT THANI: -- Families not only in Germany as first understood but also in Switzerland and the United Kingdom as well as the families of two Thai guides are grieving the loss of their loved ones in Saturday's tourist tragedy in Surat Thani's Kao Sok national park.

Governor Winai Buapradit, Surat Thani governor said British tourist Helena Christina Carroll will arrive in Bangkok Monday afternoon with staff from the British embassy before departing for her country.

The bodies of Ms. Carroll's British boyfriend, John Cullen, 24, and six other foreign victims, including four members of a Swiss family -- identified as Benno Fischer, 49, Rose-Marie Schmidt-Stalder, 47, Andrea Fisher, 17, and Sarah Fisher, 15 and 10-year-old Eddy Campe, a German -- are expected to be returned to their families on Tuesday.

The fact that the tragedy occured despite warnings of flash floods at such tourist sites nationwide has led Thai authorities to consider closing all national parks in order to preclude the possibility of flash flood accidents in the future.

The country's national parks, wildlife, plant conservation department is considering closing national parks permanently if needed for the safety of tourists during the rainy season.

Speaking on a morning news programme on Modernine TV (TV Channel 9), Chalermsak Wanichsombat, director-general of the national nark, wildlife and plant conservation department said he had ordered the head of national parks nationwide to monitor weather conditions closely in September.

For the safety of tourists, park authorities are authorised to immediately close any national park considered unsafe, in order to prevent the recurrence of the weekend accident at Kao Sok national park in Surat Thani, where a flash flood swept away tourists and guides in a cave.

Referring to the permanent closure of the national parks (in the rainy season), he said the issue will be discussed by the authorities concerned as the permanent closure can affect tour operators and tourism-related businesses.

--TNA 2007-10-15

[Galong]

The fact that the tragedy occured despite warnings of flash floods at such tourist sites nationwide has led Thai authorities to consider closing all national parks in order to preclude the possibility of flash flood accidents in the future.

Referring to the permanent closure of the national parks (in the rainy season), he said the issue will be discussed by the authorities concerned as the permanent closure can affect tour operators and tourism-related businesses.

Personally, I feel that closing the parks is not necessary and it seems to me to be a knee-jerk reaction. To turn right around and say, "the issue will be discussed by the authorities concerned as the permanent closure can affect tour operators and tourism-related businesses" leads me to believe that they are merely searching for answers right now and are seriously concerned about... if nothing else... their image.

The only dangerous places in Khao Sok if it rains heavily are caves, the popular viewpoint hike and any creeks... even small ones. The creek that flows to the cave is certainly a small one. However, it's also part of a big watershed and it will raise up rapidly if conditions are right. It is still perfectly safe to paddle on the reservoir during heavy rains and to trek on the flatter trails. A bit of common sense is needed here please.

What needs to be done is setting guidelines and standards AND having the courage to enforce these laws and guidelines. Anyone who breaks the rules should be in serious trouble. Closing the park is not the answer in my opinion.

[Farma]

Sky news just aired an interview with the survivor. She described how they were washed away in the cave.

She and her boyfriend managed to grab hold in an area but were swept away again. She surfaced in another airspace,her boyfriend arrived beside her. She continued to climb up into that space but her boyfriend decided to continue on with the current. He let go and drifted off with the words he loved her. That was the last she saw of him.

[Galong]

From the UK Times Online [ http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/worl...icle2658344.ece ]

This is scary to put it mildly...

Fatal attraction

— Thailand is the most deadly destination for British holidaymakers, according to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office

— It said that the figures, for April 2005 to March 2006 and released in British Behaviour Abroad, showed that “although Brits are getting more adventurous with their travels, they are not doing enough preparation before they go”

— Spain, which attracts 14 million Britons a year, tops almost every category for holidaymakers in peril. But when the figures are adjusted to show the proportion of visitors affected, Thailand is the most dangerous

— The 381,000 Britons who travelled to Thailand between 2005 and 2006 were nearly five times more likely to die than those visiting the second deadliest destination — India. Some 224 Britons died in Thailand

— British visitors to the country were also 50 per cent more likely to be taken to hospital in Thailand than in second-placed Greece. The latest figures show that 233 were taken to hospital

— Almost 900 Britons required serious assistance from a consulate in Thailand. That figure equates to 24 for every 10,000 visitors, double the rate for Australia

— Travel agents say that the problems are a result of cheap flights and under-prepared travellers

[donna]

what would be interesting to see is just HOW these holidays makers died. motorbike accidents, self inflicted, drugs, murder etc.

i do think that a lot of people step off the plane and leave their common sense behind, but that is probably a whole different topic in itself and not relevant to the topic at hand.

i agree with Galong though. closing the park is not going to fix the problem. the park can remain open and still host tourists - just dont let them go into the cave. in fact, they dont even have to KNOW about this cave in particular as there are others around that are far less dangerous that they can visit.

the NP office has had a kneejerk reaction that doesnt make any sense.

just as an extra bit of info, a friend of mine had some guests going into the park today and at 6am was in a to and fro telephone conversation with the NP office. at about 7am, the outcome was: "ok, go into the park, but we will not take the 400thb admission fee from you as we cannot be responsible for what happens once you are in there". as if they will take any responsibility anyway! come on!

[ColPyat]

Actually, what is it going to take for the authorities to take tourist safety seriously?

Personally, i don't not like the shift of fault solely to the guides and authorities. In the end - everybody should start taking over responsibility for themselves.

People treat nature as their little playground without being prepared at all what may expect them, part of our holiday adventure culture. Wrong equipment, lack of fitness, lack of abilities and lack of knowledge are the major causes for such accidents. I have done more than a few outdoor sports when i was younger, and i have worked as a life guard - almost all accidents were self caused for those reasons.

Caving? Very dangerous, and people really should inform themselves what may happen, what equipment is used, and for Christ's sake - a ten year old boy, and even without parents!

I am very sorry, but in the rain season going into a cave, only relying on some "guides" is just absolutely stupid. Think before you get yourself into a potentially life threatening situation. And if you have to rely on somebody else without having the necessary training and abilities - don't do it!

[madjbs]

Holiday makers and groups of people should be able to rely on a guide to take them down easy caves, even if they are 10 years old, even if they don’t have any experience. Caving isn’t dangerous if it’s done properly, the problem here is the guides were not responsible enough to be called guides. People should be able to explore the underground world in safety, which is entirely possible if it’s done right, unfortunately, here it wasn’t. I don’t see anything wrong with taking kids down caves, I have guided numerous school groups down caves in the U.K and for some kids this kind of thing really opens their minds. But, like I said before it should only be done in safe situations. Here it is very obvious that it wouldn’t be safe to take beginners down the cave and as the leaders of the group the decision to take them down lies on the guides. I don’t see how you can blame the tourists. I agree that people should take responsibility for their actions but in a case like this the tourists are signing up for a safe trip that they couldn’t otherwise take by themselves. They are not signing up to go on a trip pushing the limits of safety (which should be left for experienced cavers).

[londonthai]

as the only survivour is english and because her english boyfriend did die - the story is all over british media. Straight after that story goes british pedophile teacher which arrived to thailand the last week.

thailand in the spotlight - shame it would rather deter some adventorous or those travelling with children tourists

[sriracha john]

Holiday makers and groups of people should be able to rely on a guide to take them down easy caves, even if they are 10 years old, even if they don’t have any experience. Caving isn’t dangerous if it’s done properly, the problem here is the guides were not responsible enough to be called guides. People should be able to explore the underground world in safety, which is entirely possible if it’s done right, unfortunately, here it wasn’t. I don’t see anything wrong with taking kids down caves, I have guided numerous school groups down caves in the U.K and for some kids this kind of thing really opens their minds. But, like I said before it should only be done in safe situations. Here it is very obvious that it wouldn’t be safe to take beginners down the cave and as the leaders of the group the decision to take them down lies on the guides. I don’t see how you can blame the tourists. I agree that people should take responsibility for their actions but in a case like this the tourists are signing up for a safe trip that they couldn’t otherwise take by themselves. They are not signing up to go on a trip pushing the limits of safety (which should be left for experienced cavers).

Thank you for your reasoned, logical, sensible, rational, and factual post.

[ThailandTony]

I don't concur with the views of ColPyat in reference to the preparedness of tourists to local Thai attractions, in my opinion, the view is akin to saying that all "caving" is dangerous, which is clearly not the case. For instance, visit any underground attraction of this sort in the UK or Europe and it would have been modified/adapted to suit all but the most disabled of visitors. "Caving" is a specialist sport requiring specialist training, equipment and experience, I would put it in the same category as say scuba diving. Taking a boat ride, walking through the jungle, clambering up and down rock formations and swimming a creek should be something that most 5 year olds can do, supported by an adult, as mine can.

What is not apparent to anyone without local knowledge are the risks & dangers.

For instance, beach road in Pattaya, one that many are familiar with on this forum. On a weekly basis tourists are mugged walking up and down this road in the early hours of the morning. Everyone who has visited Pattaya more than once knows that it is foolish to travel alone or as a couple on this road at this time and if you are aware and still do it, you are an idiot, to say the least. But it still happens, why, because of apathy and indifference clearly shown by the tourist police and no pro-active measures being taken by the authorities.

Now lets get back on topic. It is highly likely that each of those tourists had to pay 400 baht on the day of their visit, in order to enter the park and travel to this local attraction, to the National Parks office before setting foot on the boat. Lets just explore the myriad of methods that "DANGER" was abroad, or that they were at serious risk and how this was communicated to them by all of the people with local knowledge that they encountered from this point on, official or unofficial!.....NONE.....there, didn't take long now did it. "Are you going to XYZ cave, yes, this is forbidden during the wet season, or this is prohibited today as the weather forecast isn't favourable, or its forecast for rain today, we strongly advise against going, or its been raining there for an hour and this route is closed, or here is a piece of paper in English/German/French that outlines the risks based on a number of recent fatalities in this very cave, or can I have a look at your safety equipment please, no the light on your mobile phone doesn't count or feel free to go but we have a local ranger stationed there and you may be refused entry when you get there, etc etc etc.....or just say nothing and collect 400 baht a head, I use that term purposely because that was the price the National Park office placed on the heads of those poor people as they passed them the receipt without saying anything (this is an unqualified statement on my part but one I consider highly likely).

Just as when you are heading north out of walking street at 2:00am and pass the tourist police van stationed at the beginning of beach road every night, or passing the station at the entrance to Soi 9, someone doesn't say to you, please don't walk up/down beach road, there is a very high likelihood you will be mugged, beaten, seriously wounded or all of the above.

Apathy is rife in Thailand and this is the what makes it dangerous to visitors, as nobody accepts the duty of care, it is left up to the individual to inevitably find out the hard way, as has been played out in this tragic scene, may they Rest in Peace.

[madjbs]

I would say caving is as dangerous as walking. You can walk along the pavement and not put youself in any danger (perhaps not in Thailand) or you can walk up mount everest and put yourself in allot of danger. Its the same with caving, you can put beginers in completly safe situations but to the novice it will seem exciting and like they are pushing the limits for themselves.

[Jiu-Jitsu]

For instance, beach road in Pattaya, one that many are familiar with on this forum. On a weekly basis tourists are mugged walking up and down this road in the early hours of the morning. Everyone who has visited Pattaya more than once knows that it is foolish to travel alone or as a couple on this road at this time and if you are aware and still do it, you are an idiot, to say the least. But it still happens, why, because of apathy and indifference clearly shown by the tourist police and no pro-active measures being taken by the authorities.

What a ridiculous, sensationalist post.

Point me to a news report of a couple being mugged there, in the early hours of the morning.

[ThailandTony]

For instance, beach road in Pattaya, one that many are familiar with on this forum. On a weekly basis tourists are mugged walking up and down this road in the early hours of the morning. Everyone who has visited Pattaya more than once knows that it is foolish to travel alone or as a couple on this road at this time and if you are aware and still do it, you are an idiot, to say the least. But it still happens, why, because of apathy and indifference clearly shown by the tourist police and no pro-active measures being taken by the authorities.

What a ridiculous, sensationalist post.

Point me to a news report of a couple being mugged there, in the early hours of the morning.

As I said this is off-topic and therefore should not be debated in this thread, I hope you agree, regardless of how you feel about the post. I will PM details to you if you are that interested......funny you should only focus on the "couples" aspect of the post though, hardly makes it sensationalist or ridiculous!....please PM me if you would like to continue this debate.

[tropiccapricorn]

When I got it correctly, the victims drowned.

Have I overheard that they all had life vests or could the operators be indeed irresponsible enough

to explore a cave where it is dark and deep enough to get into serious difficulties when anything

unusual happens.

[madjbs]

Im not sure I understand your post. But if your saying would a lack of life jackets effect the number of deaths then I would say that it most likely wouldnt have made any difference. I dont know this cave exactly but life jackets in flooded caves are normally of no use.

Edited October 15, 2007 by madjbs

[jsong123]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=209_1192433698

[donna]

stop the name calling please.

for everyones information, the cave can be considered dangerous at any time. the name Namtaloo means "water runs through it" so, yes, there is a river running through the length of the cave. there are times that you MUST swim in the cave, as your feet will not touch the ground. to do this in complete blackness is quite a weird sensation (ok, you do have flashlights but you get what i mean).

as i mentioned earlier, there is a steep drop off about two-thirds or three-quarters of the way through where the water has to pass. this drop off is only around a meter wide. when i first started going through the cave there were no safety ropes or anything to help, so you had to go down with one foot on each side and hope that you didnt slip. if you did, you would land on top of a spiked rock at the bottom.

these days, there is a rope that you can hang on to in order to get to the bottom which does make it a lot easier, and i guess, safer.

i do not think that this is a VERY dangerous cave to explore, but there IS an element of danger associated with it, even if its just the drop off that i just mentioned.

i DO think that anyone who enters this cave should be briefed on EXACTLY what they are getting in to and i feel that when i was going here, i did this very well. there were occasions where i would tell people in my group that they could NOT go int the cave because i did not feel they were up to it. on the opposite end of the scale, i have heard people advise people like "tra la la la la....we are off to the cave now" and off they go, trekking through the jungle with the guests having no expectation of how difficult it really is.

to say that this cave is a walk in the park is totally inaccurate. i am sure that galong will agree with me here.

[madjbs]

I’m surprised that people are allowed to enter without proper lighting as I would never go caving without a decent headlamp (attached to helmet and no, plastic flashlight from 7/11 doesnt count). Why don’t the tourist companies buy some proper equipment? Its not like its overly expensive and the tourists would probably like being kitted up. Also if there is a 3m waterfall with a rock at the bottom then why aren’t people roped up as they go down it? A simple waist belt would be all they have to wear which can also be used to hold the lamp battery? Its starting to sound like the adventure tourism stuff here is in need of a rethink.

Edited October 16, 2007 by madjbs

[WaiWai]

i do not think that this is a VERY dangerous cave to explore, but there IS an element of danger associated with it, even if its just the drop off that i just mentioned.

Quite evidently.

While of course we should be able to expect the best from guides, I would think that about ten minutes in Thailand might be enough to alert most people not to rely on others to keep them safe, or to place trust in safety systems /equipment /vehicles etc.

Choosing to enter the caves is a decision for an informed adult to make. It seems the information was lacking, but I wonder where were the instincts and common sense ? I do think it is true that when on holiday, some people operate in a different mode - a more carefree, and careless one.

I am sorry to say that I do think the parent of the child who died must be regretting a (poor) decision now . Has there been any news of this person ?

[madjbs]

I would agree with you, however people are easily fooled or made to think something is safe when they don’t know anything about the activity in hand, especially when accompanied by someone called a cave guide. The problem is that most people can see the danger only when its imminent, i.e. there is a cliff in front of them or there is a raging waterfall falling into a cave next to them. However, when the danger is hidden only the trained eye can understand it.

[WaiWai]

I would agree with you, however people are easily fooled or made to think something is safe when they don’t know anything about the activity in hand, especially when accompanied by someone called a cave guide. The problem is that most people can see the danger only when its imminent, i.e. there is a cliff in front of them or there is a raging waterfall falling into a cave next to them. However, when the danger is hidden only the trained eye can understand it.

I'd have thought most people would have an instinctive fear of the unseen & unknown dangers of a dark cave.

Perhaps something about the mood & atmosphere on the day overcame any qualms on the part of the parent.

However, it seems to me the "thrill" of danger was indeed what the tourists were seeking.

Frankly, what else could be the point of clambering & swimming through a cave in which you can see nothing ?

Edited October 16, 2007 by WaiWai

[madjbs]

That’s what I’m trying to say, people may have a fear of a cave but it doesn’t mean they know exactly what the dangers are. Unless you are experienced its impossible to asses the dangers as some of them aren’t visible and some of them are easy to overlook. Therefore novices can not be expected to make sensib;e decisions on things they know nothing about. If they had been experienced cavers then it would be partly their own fault, but they were complete novices so I maintain that the guides were responsible for them and the tragedy that occurred lies 99% on the guides sholders and most likely the tour company as well.

[WaiWai]

That’s what I’m trying to say, people may have a fear of a cave but it doesn’t mean they know exactly what the dangers are. Unless you are experienced its impossible to asses the dangers as some of them aren’t visible and some of them are easy to overlook. Therefore novices can not be expected to make sensib;e decisions on things they know nothing about. If they had been experienced cavers then it would be partly their own fault, but they were complete novices so I maintain that the guides were responsible for them and the tragedy that occurred lies 99% on the guides sholders and most likely the tour company as well.

That brings us back to what I said about what one should realise within a very short time of arriving in Thailand, though .

[donna]

people LOVE the sense of pioneering and danger. i dont care who you are, but most of us love to think that we are doing something right out of the ordinary and we all love to laugh in the face of danger. many of you may admit this, and others may not. but its true. we all disregard the 'danger aspect' of many activities when we are out of our own country on holidays. ive done it before (and most of us here have done it by simply not wearing a helmet when riding a motorbike - something we would NEVER consider back in our own countries - its just TOO dangerous).

but thats comparing apples and oranges really.

there were many errors which led to this group losing their lives:

the fact that they went through the cave in rainy season (which i have done in the past and had no problem)

the fact that they chose to have lunch first - had they gone in the morning they would not be headlines today (plain bad luck)

the fact that their guide did not either know of the apparent danger (although he had done the trip many times before) or chose to ignore warnings (we will never know the answer to this)

was it preventable? heck yes. close the cave during rainy season.

could it happen again? heck yes. UNLESS the NP decide to take some strong measures to close the cave, not the entire park, during certain times of the year.

its easy to blame the company - but they didnt force the group to go through the cave.

its easy to blame the guide - but hes dead.

its easy to blame the clients - but they are dead.

i see no point in putting the blame on anyone else except the National Parks of Thailand. the bloody cave should have been closed. full stop.

the best thing that anyone can get out of this tragic situation is to LEARN A LESSON and do not let it happen again.

[Kan Win]

Map of Khao Sok National Park in Surat Thani province of Thailand, showing the highways to the park, the Chew Lan dam lake, etc.

Condolences to the family and friends of the deceased.

May they Rest in Peace.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rajjaprabha Saddle Dam for those that have never been there

and then go up the little hill further along the road to

Rajjaprabha Dam

Kan Win

[JimsKnight]

Remember this is Asia. As well intentioned as you all are in yammering on about this and that needs to be changed etc we have to remember that we're in Asia folks, not Europe or America. Foreigners have little or no weight here in the big corridors of power.

If they close the cave it will just draw more folk in anyway, who'll be attracted by the danger factor, adventure etc.

It's karma, it's fate is what they'll say (the thais). And so things will muddle on.

The rangers have already explained they warned them and the guides did not heed their warnings and now they are dead. For the Thai Authorities it's likely an open and shut case I'm afraid.

Personally I've never been 'hip' to paying a thai money to have him lead me and bunch of trudging tourists into caves and jungles, out riding bikes and meeting hill folk etc. I normally take responisibility for myself and at least if I fck up and kill myself, I know it would likely of been my own fault and no-one elses. Hopefully, in the future, tourists will be more savvy and advised on things, rather than entrusting their life to some of the amateurs out there. Which unfortunately is what has happened in that cave.

This reminds me of many accidents in the past.

A build up of the little things all colludes into one big disaster.

It sucks and it's tragic but wheel keeps spinning and we're all still on it so play up the game folks and try to keep on swinging.

[WaiWai]

Remember this is Asia. As well intentioned as you all are in yammering on about this and that needs to be changed etc we have to remember that we're in Asia folks, not Europe or America. Foreigners have little or no weight here in the big corridors of power.

Yes. Just another example of the "Thailand as Disneyland" idea. Life in Europe, America or the Antipodes can be stressful. We are very ready to buy the notion of a (cheap) 2 week escape in Never Never Land.

There's an unhealthy relationship between tourists and locals in many places around the globe. Thailand, seems to figure very prominently in news about the unsavoury consequences of the dalliance.

Build the (cheap) dream and the dreamers will come.

Donna has given us a very good analysis of the combination of factors that brought this loss of life about. Her posts indicate she is a highly responsible guide who knows her job and her clientele.

I just disagree on one point :

but most of us love to think that we are doing something right out of the ordinary and we all love to laugh in the face of danger. many of you may admit this, and others may not. but its true. we all disregard the 'danger aspect' of many activities when we are out of our own country on holidays. ive done it before (and most of us here have done it by simply not wearing a helmet when riding a motorbike - something we would NEVER consider back in our own countries - its just TOO dangerous).

I am not sure that is true. Of course, this must apply to most people on "outdoor adventure" holidays, but they may not represent "most of us". Many people want to escpe living constantly on adrenaline and are more than happy to spend a week or two relaxing, swimming, reading, eating well and sleeping .

It is clear that the people on the cave tour were signing up for a "thrill".

I am not involved in the tourist industry but it does seem people are no longer happy with/ are being told they should no longer be happy with just a holiday. It has to be an adventure holiday or a learn to cook holiday or a learn to massage holiday or whatever. I guess we are all such sheep we don't even know how to have a break all on our own, any more.

Edited October 16, 2007 by WaiWai