My heart goes out to that 21 year old English girl who sat in the dark all alone for 20 hours waiting to be rescued when knowing that her boyfriend had gone under. They were just two weeks into a year long holiday. Also condolences to all the other families. RIP

there were occasions where i would tell people in my group that they could NOT go int the cave because i did not feel they were up to it. on the opposite end of the scale, i have heard people advise people like "tra la la la la....we are off to the cave now" and off they go, trekking through the jungle with the guests having no expectation of how difficult it really is.

to say that this cave is a walk in the park is totally inaccurate. i am sure that galong will agree with me here.

To think that any cave is a cakewalk is to not fully realize the potential for injury. The footing is difficult and as you walk in water a lot of time it is easy to twist your ankle. Not paying attention to the rock at head level makes it possible to cut your head. This might sound a little silly, but believe me, when you're in this cave trying to pay attention to your footing it's very easy to walk right into a head-high rock.

The drop-off that Donna is talking about is NOT easy even at low water. Her decision to not allow certain people on the tour whom she 'feels' aren't capable proves her professionalism. Yes, the guest would miss a wonderful adventure, but the most important thing for a guide to do is protect the clients... even if the client gets pissed off at you for not allowing them to have the experience, this is a judgment call that should be respected and appreciated.

On a different note: closing the park is a knee-jerk reaction and the irresponsible actions of two guides does not in any way make the park, nor this cave walk dangerous. Yes, there are potentially dangerous aspect, but with proper equipment and training, this cave can be a wonderful experience. I don't know that I want to go in it for a while. It would be too heart-wrenching to enjoy.

I hope that Ms. Carroll can survive the mental stress she must be going through. I can't even imagine what must be going on in her head.

A BBC page has a video interview of the gal who survived the ordeal. She said she lives because her boyfriend saved her. He died trying to save her the 2nd time.

Brave soul. RIP.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england...nds/7046274.stm

Met a couple of Dutchmen last week on Koh Chang Ranong they had just come from that cave. They had walked to the entrance and found the water too high to go in, a bit of luck for them I think

luck and good judgement on the guides part.

Met a couple of Dutchmen last week on Koh Chang Ranong they had just come from that cave. They had walked to the entrance and found the water too high to go in, a bit of luck for them I think

Whew, good for them... they certainly made the right decision as the area that is difficult is much, much narrower than the entrance. If the water is high at the entrance, it's very high at the difficult part.

Thai guides 'ignored official warning not to go into the caves'

The two tour guides who led six foreign tourists to their deaths in a cave in southern Thailand at the weekend had been warned not to enter the caves by park officials, it was claimed today.

The two Thai men were specifically told about the dangers of flash flooding during the monsoon season, now at its peak in Thailand, but ignored their advice.

The warning was given by the Tourist Authority of Thailand (TAT) South Region 5, which covers Khao Sok National Park, where Helena Carroll, 21, from Solihull, was the only survivor of the disaster in Tham Nam Thalu cave.

Because it had not been raining immediately before the group entered the cave, the report concluded that the guides ignored the warning from park officers.

The park was hit by a torrential downpour while the tourists were inside, causing a flash flood to sweep everyone but Ms Carroll away.

The TAT forwarded a copy of its investigation into the tragedy to the British, German and Swiss embassies in Bangkok today.

- Times Online (UK)

===========================================================================

British survivor of Thai cave deluge flies home

LONDON — A British woman who survived flash floods which killed eight people in a cave in Thailand arrived back in England on Tuesday, after recounting her ordeal.

Helena Carroll, 21, flew into London Heathrow Airport to be reunited with her family after the tragedy, in which six foreign tourists and two Thai guides died in the cave in Kao Sok National Park.

Trekkers from Switzerland, Germany and Britain were trapped when heavy rain caused a stream to rise swiftly, engulfing the cave in Surat Thani province in southern Thailand.

Carroll, who spent almost 20 hours trapped in the cave before she was rescued, made no comment to reporters, as airport officials whisked her through a side door at Heathrow where her father John was waiting.

But she has told British media of her ordeal, which claimed the life of her boyfriend John Cullen, 24.

Speaking to Sky News television, Carroll explained how the couple were caught in the rising, rushing water, but said that at one point she managed to cling on to the rockface and climb out.

Her boyfriend also surfaced nearby, and she tried to persuade him to stay with her -- but he insisted on staying in the water, hoping to be borne to safety and then raise the alarm.

"I kept on climbing up, and John goes 'I'm going to go with the current'," she said. "I said 'Don't, sit here with me', and he was like 'No, no, no, no' and he just let go.

"He said 'I love you' and he just let go," she added.

- AFP

Edited October 17, 200718 yr by sriracha john

Thai guides 'ignored official warning not to go into the caves'

how "official" is "official"

is there a chain of command involved with "officials " having some control or authority over guides and tourists going into the caves and can they prohibit a guide from taking a party in after the guide has been advised not to ?

do the "officials" count them in and count them out on these caving trips.

if not , then they dont sound very "official " to me. did they just shrug their shoulders and say "mai pen rai, its up to you" and get on with their afternoon nap.

if they advised that the cave was dangerous that day , then why didnt they take action and close it off.

if the instructions / advice of an "official" were disobeyed , the why didnt the "official" take some action.

this statement / claim from the TAT , which in effect places the blame on the dead guides , conveniently absolves the TAT/national park authority from any responsibility regarding this tragedy.

what actually is the job remit of these "officials" other than collecting money at the gate.

p.s.

the survivor has said she was not aware of any warning of danger having been given.

Thai guides 'ignored official warning not to go into the caves'

how "official" is "official"

is there a chain of command involved with "officials " having some control or authority over guides and tourists going into the caves and can they prohibit a guide from taking a party in after the guide has been advised not to ?

do the "officials" count them in and count them out on these caving trips.

if not , then they dont sound very "official " to me. did they just shrug their shoulders and say "mai pen rai, its up to you" and get on with their afternoon nap.

if they advised that the cave was dangerous that day , then why didnt they take action and close it off.

if the instructions / advice of an "official" were disobeyed , the why didnt the "official" take some action.

this statement / claim from the TAT , which in effect places the blame on the dead guides , conveniently absolves the TAT/national park authority from any responsibility regarding this tragedy.

what actually is the job remit of these "officials" other than collecting money at the gate.

p.s.

the survivor has said she was not aware of any warning of danger having been given.

Park rangers are often guides as well. I suspect that these rangers were no more than some of the guys who work at the floating bungalows... mostly young guys who wield no authority and who make so little money that they surely don't take their job seriously.

Blaming it entirely on the dead guides is exactly what I was expecting to happen. I also don't expect anything positive to come out of this whole ordeal, meaning, there will be no mandatory licensing specifically dealing with caving, trekking, etc. There will be no one to check to make sure that any guide heading to the cave has proper safety equipment. Things will be back to normal in no time.

That is, unless the foreign media and governments can somehow keep this tragedy in the limelight longer and thus causing even more loss of face for Thailand. Even then, I would expect xenophobia to kick in and make the Thai gov mad rather than ashamed of their poor safety practices.

I hate to think this way, honestly I do. I would much rather see this as a lesson, triggering the government to go full steam ahead and get their guides up to speed.

I was in one of the two groups who made it out; luckily for us, we had an older lady with us who didn't think she'd make it through the cave, so the other three of us and our guide went in as far as the waterfall (maybe a 15 minute trip in over the bit where you have to swim, and then another 15 minutes out), and came back out to meet her, we didn't do the loop.

Earlier we had come across the group who got trapped but they overtook us as we were slower, they may have been about 20 minutes ahead.

We were surprised to see it was raining when we emerged. The river water rose so quickly that as we went to cross, the dry mound I was standing on (maybe 20 cm above water) was submerged in less than 10 seconds and we had to bushcrash about 150 metres further down the river to a narrower, shallower place to cross over to the side on which our boat was moored and even then the current was almost irresistible.

I have mixed feelings about the whole thing. On one hand, I didn't hear (or see) any warnings against going in by any National Park authorities (I speak fluent Thai), they were unconcernedly playing a rather rowdy game of cards, even as we returned, drenched, to the longhouse, where the mother of the little boy sat looking worried. On the other hand, I think it's incumbent upon people to realise that Thailand, and other developing countries, while they may be tourist destinations, are much more dangerous places in general than the west; you can't just call up an ambulance and expect to be all fixed up.

My condolences to the mother of the little boy, for what it's worth, you have been in our thoughts constantly.

Edited October 17, 200718 yr by sasyakachan3

On one hand, I didn't hear (or see) any warnings against going in by any National Park authorities (I speak fluent Thai), they were unconcernedly playing a rather rowdy game of cards, even as we returned, drenched, to the longhouse, where the mother of the little boy sat looking worried. On the other hand, I think it's incumbent upon people to realise that Thailand, and other developing countries, while they may be tourist destinations, are much more dangerous places in general than the west; you can't just call up an ambulance and expect to be all fixed up.

glad to hear your trip ended safely.

i would suggest you make your observations re. the lack of warnings and the behaviour of the national park staff known to the thai press and perhaps the foriegn press.

the fact that you just cant call up an ambulance or a professional rescue team makes it all the more important for guides and national park staff to warn visitors and to monitor for adverse changes that could endanger visitors.

once again , i urge you to make it widely known that no warnings were posted or given and the staff were oblivious to the possibility of disaster.

... we returned, drenched, to the longhouse, where the mother of the little boy sat looking worried...

My condolences to the mother of the little boy, for what it's worth, you have been in our thoughts constantly.

Thanks for your post. I would like to add my condolences too, even though the poor lady will probably never read this. Very sad.

I wonder what type of warning the guides got. Since the rangers would have more status than the guides, it wouldn't be normal for them to disobey. Hopefully, in the future, they will close the cave when conditions might be dangerous.

a friend of mine, who was directly involved, told me that the warning signs were put up the day after the tragedy so it looked good in the eyes of the international press.

the rangers didnt advise them not to go through. the warning came from another guide in the jungle when the ill fated group were on the way in and the other group were on the way out.

a friend of mine, who was directly involved, told me that the warning signs were put up the day after the tragedy so it looked good in the eyes of the international press.

the rangers didnt advise them not to go through. the warning came from another guide in the jungle when the ill fated group were on the way in and the other group were on the way out.

ah, yes - maximum effort saved for covering up rather than prevention, and responsible authorities embroiled in trivial pursuits during a torrential downpour while tourists are still out at a notoriously dangerous site - now that's the Thailand that I know and abhor.

My condolences to the families.

I was in one of the two groups who made it out; luckily for us, we had an older lady with us who didn't think she'd make it through the cave, so the other three of us and our guide went in as far as the waterfall (maybe a 15 minute trip in over the bit where you have to swim, and then another 15 minutes out), and came back out to meet her, we didn't do the loop.

Earlier we had come across the group who got trapped but they overtook us as we were slower, they may have been about 20 minutes ahead.

We were surprised to see it was raining when we emerged. The river water rose so quickly that as we went to cross, the dry mound I was standing on (maybe 20 cm above water) was submerged in less than 10 seconds and we had to bushcrash about 150 metres further down the river to a narrower, shallower place to cross over to the side on which our boat was moored and even then the current was almost irresistible.

I have mixed feelings about the whole thing. On one hand, I didn't hear (or see) any warnings against going in by any National Park authorities (I speak fluent Thai), they were unconcernedly playing a rather rowdy game of cards, even as we returned, drenched, to the longhouse, where the mother of the little boy sat looking worried. On the other hand, I think it's incumbent upon people to realise that Thailand, and other developing countries, while they may be tourist destinations, are much more dangerous places in general than the west; you can't just call up an ambulance and expect to be all fixed up.

My condolences to the mother of the little boy, for what it's worth, you have been in our thoughts constantly.

Glad to hear your group narrowly escaped this tragedy, if I get your timing right, your group would have been behind the group in the cave but by turning around you managed to avoid the confines of the cave as the water rapidly rose and you only (I am not trivialising the task by any means) had to traverse the rising water in the area outside of the cave? Did any of your group continue or did you all return to the entrance?

My wife (who is Thai) was incredulous when I suggested that the Thai guides ignored warnings...."do you think they (the guides) wanted to die", she proclaimed, no probably not, I replied, but at least they knew what they were getting into, whereas the tourists had no idea.

An altogether tragic tale.

as i said earlier, i am not sure how strongly the warning was put across. as the sole survivor said, 'a wall of water came towards us', so the water could not possibly have been that bad when the first groups were in the cave. this was a FLASH flood.

those of us who have been inside the cave on several occasions know that the area can flood in no time. the first warnings could have been anything from 'jeez, theres a lot of water in there today' to 'bloody he//. i wouldnt go in there if i were you'. chances are it was the first warning, as i agree that the thai guides did not want to die either.

im quite sure i knew the guide, and he was very respected in the khao sok area.

chai is being cremated today.

may all those who lost their lives rest in peace.

donna>> Your first and second-hand information is much appruciated. It's so much better than the 5th-hand-filtered dribble the press puts forward on this and other subjects.

My thoughts are with the ones affected.

as i said earlier, i am not sure how strongly the warning was put across. as the sole survivor said, 'a wall of water came towards us', so the water could not possibly have been that bad when the first groups were in the cave. this was a FLASH flood.

those of us who have been inside the cave on several occasions know that the area can flood in no time. the first warnings could have been anything from 'jeez, theres a lot of water in there today' to 'bloody he//. i wouldnt go in there if i were you'. chances are it was the first warning, as i agree that the thai guides did not want to die either.

im quite sure i knew the guide, and he was very respected in the khao sok area.

chai is being cremated today.

may all those who lost their lives rest in peace.

I'm the sister of the Swiss family father who died in the flashflood in Nam Thalu cave, aunt of the two girls and friend of my brothers life partner. To follow your discussion was very informativ - and sad. It really seems that it could have been prevented... What would I give for that...

All four were very fit people, experienced mountain hikers, climbers, skiiers ...you name it. And - because of their experience and because both my brother and his partner were parents - they were always careful. My brother would turn around anytime in the mountains when things got weary, dangerous or if someone would not feel fit. He'd go through all the necessary safety checks before and during any trips. He was not the type to take unnecessary risks- especially not with his daughters involved - who meant everything to him. There is no way he'd go into that cave if there was a clear warning! Same goes for his partner. I'm in contact with the mother of the 10-year old boy: She was unaware of any warning.

As of "not trusting thai guides": It was their first trip to Thailand. How on earth were they supposed to know that guides should not be trustworthy? If I want to go in the mountains and don't feel sure about the trip, but would like to do it, I take a guide, trusting that he/she would guide me safely, with everything that includes.

They must have trusted the guides judgement of the situation, especially since they came along too. They sure did not want to die either!

Please keep us posted on any news about this. There is nothing we can do to bring our loved ones back but I'd like to know as much as possible about the circumstances of their death.

We are all very, very sad.

Thanks for all the condolences.

And our thoughts will continue to be with you. Thanks for giving some clear insight into the people involved in this tragedy. Like you, I sometimes take a guide when going into the unknown and it's terribly sad when you find out they aren't as well prepared, trained or knowledgable as they should be. Of course, in Thailand this is the norm, but it isn't until you've been here a while that you figure that out.

UPDATE... with cave re-opening

Popular Surat Thani cave re-opens with warning system

SURAT THANI – A popular cave at Khao Sok National Park in the southern province of Surat Thani was re-opened on the weekend, two months after six European tourists and their two Thai guides died when a flash flood engulfed the cave they were exploring, Khao Sok National Park chief Chaithat Boonphuphantanti said here Monday.

Mr. Chaithat said the National Park re-opened Nam Rod or Nam Thalu Cave for tourists December 16, in time for the annual influx of visitors during the New Year's holiday.

The cave is located north of Ratchaprapha Dam in Ban Ta Khun district.

The park chief said the safety systems installed in the National Park included the siren warning signals, rain guages, and monitoring of the water colour to prevent recurrance of any natural disaster in the future.

Six European tourists and their two Thai guides died in October when a flash flood engulfed the cave as they were exploring it, officials said.

The holidaymakers were trekking with their guides in Kao Sok National Park when heavy rain caused the water level in the cave to rise suddenly.

Mr. Chaithat also said that the National Park would provide staff to accompany tourists and that visitors must register before entering the park.

Signs to warn tourists not to enter the cave during the rain were also installed, he said.

Kao Sok National Park is about 650 km south of Bangkok. Its large lake, dense rainforest, limestone cliffs and numerous caves make it a popular destination for trekkers.

- MCOT

Cave reopens to tourists

Surat Thani _ The scenic Nam Talu cave, closed since October after eight people drowned in a flash flood, has been reopened to welcome end of year holidaymakers. Khao Sok National Park head Chaitat Bunpupantanti said visitors can be assured of their safety inside the cave. Water swept through the cave in October killing six foreigners and two Thai guides who were inside.

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.net/News/19Dec2007_news13.php

Cave reopens to tourists

Surat Thani _ The scenic Nam Talu cave, closed since October after eight people drowned in a flash flood, has been reopened to welcome end of year holidaymakers. Khao Sok National Park head Chaitat Bunpupantanti said visitors can be assured of their safety inside the cave. Water swept through the cave in October killing six foreigners and two Thai guides who were inside.

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.net/News/19Dec2007_news13.php

I was in the cave yesterday and three days ago. There are brand new signs up at the head of the trail and at the entrance to the cave warning people not to go into the cave when it's raining. They weren't there before the last deaths.

And, a sign doesn't mean anything if the guides still don't know how to make judgment calls. Khun Chaitat is dreaming if he thinks these signs are all that's necessary. I still saw a single "local" guide leading a group 6 of intrepid travelers through the cave the other day. That size group should demand at least two guides. If there was a problem, what exactly is one guide with one non-waterproof light going to do? If there aren't any newly revised training programs in the workings, this is a waste of time and there will be deaths again... for sure.