Tell me about these attractions

[Nienke]

I got a dog in today with a broken spinal cord.

Now I would like to scan the X-ray and send it by email. Is this possible on a normal scanner? And is there anyone who can and is willing to help me with this?

Please, contact me asap by PM or phone (nr. can be found by clicking on my banner and then click on contact us)

Nienke

P.S. I do not have a scanner.

[Blinky Bill]

To be able to scan film whether it be negative, diapositive (transparencies) or x-ray you will need a scanner with a backlight to penetrate the image. These are common in the mapping industry (extremely expensive) but no so much in general use. You could try the Digital Photo shop on Chaiyaphum Rd just north of Chiang Moi Road, sorry I can't remember the name.

[Nienke]

Thanks BB I will check it out.

Somewhere in the unclear past, i've heard/read that scanning X-rays need special equipment. But how or what, I don't remember

Poor dog is completely paralised in the back. Not sure yet if this includes urination and defecation. She's panting a lot, so probably in a lot of pain despite the painkillers, and didn't want to drink since she arrived. And she pee-ed blood (involuntarily) when she came in.

I 'm thinking to ask a third opinion of a veterinary friend in The States who has 3 emergency pet clinics, and now I'm going for a second opinion to my own vet.

She is only 10 months old.

Nienke

[Maejo Man]

You could try the Digital Photo shop on Chaiyaphum Rd just north of Chiang Moi Road, sorry I can't remember the name.

"Photo Bug"

[Tywais]

I was going to tell you we can try mine, but after getting home it only has a small back lit window for film/negatives and not large enough area. One possibility is if you have a digital camera to put the film up to an even light source and photograph it close up.

[Dustoff]

I was going to tell you we can try mine, but after getting home it only has a small back lit window for film/negatives and not large enough area. One possibility is if you have a digital camera to put the film up to an even light source and photograph it close up.

Excellent recommendation.

I have a hi-res film scanner that wil do up to 22x30 cm (8.5x12 inches) and live not far from Hang Dong.

Sorry to hear about the dog Nienke - I would guess that the prognosis is poor.

Edited October 16, 2007 by Dustoff

[Nienke]

Just had to rush home from Hang Dong My maid called because the dog started moving and screamed the neighborhood together with all the dogs joining in. Now she is 'ok' again. I have absolute wonderful workers as they stayed with her and kept on petting her untill she quieted down. Normal food she didn't want but the 200 gram sausages went in very well At least with that in her stomach she could have her med's.

The film is about 35 X 42 cm. But the most important part can be on 22 X 30 cm. I'll try the light thing first with the digital camera (I received also a helpful PM on this) . Hadn't the time yet to do so. But if that doesn't work, is it possible to drop by tomorrow Dustoff?

As Dustoff already said, prognosis is poor. That's what the first vet said and the second one, where I passed 2 hours ago. Still I would like the opinion of the third vet in the States as she is also a veterinary neurologist and from a CM vet who also does acupuncture on animals. Unfortunately, the latter one practises on Tuesday evenings and Saturdays, and now I can't leave.

One good thing about all those dogs: they keep me from the street.

Nienke

[Nienke]

Oh almost forget: when people get an accident and have an injury in their neck they get such a collar around the neck. Now I want to make one for around the body of this dog. After all, I need to be able to lift her on a regular basis in order to turn her around, so she doesn't lie on one side all the time, and she needs to pee and poo.

Has anyone creative idea's on this. Very welcome! Especially if you have the time to come over and help me out. If not, please, explain in detail.

Nienke

[Tywais]

I'll try the light thing first with the digital camera (I received also a helpful PM on this) .

Just a suggestion. If you use an LCD computer monitor, remove everything on the computer desktop and set the screen background to all white. Then tape the film to the monitor and photograph it. Probably can do it with a flat screen CRT monitor also. Effectively a light box.

[Blinky Bill]

Oh almost forget: when people get an accident and have an injury in their neck they get such a collar around the neck. Now I want to make one for around the body of this dog. After all, I need to be able to lift her on a regular basis in order to turn her around, so she doesn't lie on one side all the time, and she needs to pee and poo.

Has anyone creative idea's on this. Very welcome! Especially if you have the time to come over and help me out. If not, please, explain in detail.

Nienke

In my previous life as a cop we often used inflatable plastic splints to immobilise and support broken bits.

Don't mean to seem callous but is it really worth all the effort to keep the poor animal in pain. Better off going to sleep in my opinion.

[Nienke]

In my previous life as a cop we often used inflatable plastic splints to immobilise and support broken bits.

Yeh, I was thinking of that. But when you lift her up her spinal cord wil straighten due to the body weight, now it has an approx. 45 degrees angle. Therefore, i'm more thinking of a kind of box or mal around her body.

Don't mean to seem callous but is it really worth all the effort to keep the poor animal in pain. Better off going to sleep in my opinion.

I know what you mean and I do have mixed felings about it as well. However, there are several cases of dogs and cats that are completely paralised in the back, but live a happy lives with a wheelchair. The accident just has happend two days ago, so the pain hasn't gone yet, and it's too early to tell what will happen to this dog in the near future. The owner is already informing about wheelchairs.

Nienke

[Ulysses G.]

Sounds like the owner can't bring themselves to do the right thing and just put the poor animal to sleep.

[Nienke]

I do not agree ... yet.

I've mentioned this before on the forum; I had a dog in with a huge liver problem, liver enzymes went up to 1100, while normal range is below 89, and platelets plummitted to (if I remember well) somewhere around 10,000 while normal range is between 140,000 and 400,000. You can imagine this dog was close to death, didn't want to eat for days, didn't want to move. The dog survived and is back with his owner, eating vey well and playing around with the other dog, (who happens to listen to the name Olive )

Then, somewhere beginning last month I had a little Shih Tzu under treatment, who had a broken paw and pelvis (also car accident), and enormous problems with urination and defecation. Also this dog was in horrendous pain in the beginning, but is now hobbling around again.

Although this dog is in a lot of pain (which is always the case after such an accident), she is still fighting and hasn't given up yet.

Nienke

[Nienke]

Just to let you know that it did work with the digital camera. A bit improvising with tape and a ceiling lamp, but pic's are send and I'm awaiting reply.

When I let the husky out for pee and poo, she tries to hunt the little frogs and insects in the grass She can hold her pee and move up her tail a little. So, I'm very curious what the veterinarian neurologist is going to say.

Nienke

[Physherman]

Just had to rush home from Hang Dong My maid called because the dog started moving and screamed the neighborhood together with all the dogs joining in. Now she is 'ok' again. I have absolute wonderful workers as they stayed with her and kept on petting her untill she quieted down. Normal food she didn't want but the 200 gram sausages went in very well At least with that in her stomach she could have her med's.

The film is about 35 X 42 cm. But the most important part can be on 22 X 30 cm. I'll try the light thing first with the digital camera (I received also a helpful PM on this) . Hadn't the time yet to do so. But if that doesn't work, is it possible to drop by tomorrow Dustoff?

As Dustoff already said, prognosis is poor. That's what the first vet said and the second one, where I passed 2 hours ago. Still I would like the opinion of the third vet in the States as she is also a veterinary neurologist and from a CM vet who also does acupuncture on animals. Unfortunately, the latter one practises on Tuesday evenings and Saturdays, and now I can't leave.

One good thing about all those dogs: they keep me from the street.

Nienke

At first glance it appears that you are trying very hard to save this dog. That is a very charitable thing to do. But with all the pain that it seems to be in, the blood in the urine, the whimpering, and especially the broken spine, compared with all the time that you are spending running around looking to scan X-rays, going from Vet to Vet, asking opinions, this poor creature is suffering so that YOU can feel better, not the dog. There comes a time to put it down. Even one of your vets suggested it.

I wonder if this thread is more of an advertisement for your business than a good will appeal? How long will you make this animal suffer?

The Fly Fisherman

[Tywais]

I wonder if this thread is more of an advertisement for your business than a good will appeal?

If you check the history of Nienke's post you will see your statement is way out of line and inappropriate. She has been helping members long before she became a sponsor and asking for and giving assistance in a variety of animal related subjects.

[Dustoff]

If you check the history of Nienke's post you will see your statement is way out of line and inappropriate. She has been helping members long before she became a sponsor and asking for and giving assistance in a variety of animal related subjects.

Agreed. As easy as it is to hurl criticism from afar, Nienke is the one dealing with the situation hands-on which makes it her call, not our's.

I had a cat long ago that was run over by a Harley and it broke his spine mid-back; an obvious break that left him bent at a 45-degree angle. I actually reset the spine myself (not deluding myself that there was any chance of recovering lower body function) then spent the next three weeks helping him do his evacuation routines and watching him walk on his front legs, dragging inert hind legs and tail behind. Then, movement in the tip of his tail !

Within three months, he was racing around on all fours but his hind legs never did get quite up to speed and when he rounded sharp corners at high speed, his 'trailer' was a bit out of control like he was a truck driver navigating an icy road. "Ashley Roachclip" I named him (something to do with his pain med) and he lived a long and happy life.

If it were me Nienke, I wouldn't want you making that call too hastily...

ps - As we discussed, my film scanner turned out to be too small as well and it is good to hear that Tywais' camera idea is working out for you. GOOD LUCK!

Edited October 18, 2007 by Dustoff

[Nienke]

Just had to rush home from Hang Dong My maid called because the dog started moving and screamed the neighborhood together with all the dogs joining in. Now she is 'ok' again. I have absolute wonderful workers as they stayed with her and kept on petting her untill she quieted down. Normal food she didn't want but the 200 gram sausages went in very well At least with that in her stomach she could have her med's.

The film is about 35 X 42 cm. But the most important part can be on 22 X 30 cm. I'll try the light thing first with the digital camera (I received also a helpful PM on this) . Hadn't the time yet to do so. But if that doesn't work, is it possible to drop by tomorrow Dustoff?

As Dustoff already said, prognosis is poor. That's what the first vet said and the second one, where I passed 2 hours ago. Still I would like the opinion of the third vet in the States as she is also a veterinary neurologist and from a CM vet who also does acupuncture on animals. Unfortunately, the latter one practises on Tuesday evenings and Saturdays, and now I can't leave.

One good thing about all those dogs: they keep me from the street.

Nienke

At first glance it appears that you are trying very hard to save this dog. That is a very charitable thing to do. But with all the pain that it seems to be in, the blood in the urine, the whimpering, and especially the broken spine, compared with all the time that you are spending running around looking to scan X-rays, going from Vet to Vet, asking opinions, this poor creature is suffering so that YOU can feel better, not the dog. There comes a time to put it down. Even one of your vets suggested it.

I wonder if this thread is more of an advertisement for your business than a good will appeal? How long will you make this animal suffer?

The Fly Fisherman

Is is interesting Fly Fisherman that you replied on my above mentioned post and not on the next one in which I say

When I let the husky out for pee and poo, she tries to hunt the little frogs and insects in the grass. She can hold her pee and move up her tail a little.

. You are a selective reader? Plus, if it would be your dog, you wouldn't look at all the possibilities nor you would look at what the dog is telling you through its body language, but just put it down? (Mind you, she isn't my dog, but that doesn't make me fight less for her or any other dog or cat).

One of he many examples: I had dogs with distemper, mainly puppies. There is a mortality rate of approx. 75%, although the vet last time said 90%. Some pups had severe diarrhea, others were coughing like idiots, all with fevers up to 105 degrees fahrenheit. And sure enough, they were suffering at the time. You wouldn't go for all the possibilities in order to safe their lives?

Well, I did, and a survival rate of 90% without side-effects (many get brain damage after surviving distemper). If I wouldn't have tried and asked for help, they wouldn't have gotten any chance to live on a happy life, would they?!

FYI, the reason why she screamed (post #7) was because she needed to pee and didn't want to soil her bed. As she is a new dog that just came in we didn't know these signals. After 2 days with me and 5 days after the accident she doesn't pee blood anymore. And today she has called us several times, not because she needed to pee each time, but because she wanted to come out and walk and sniff around. She clearly is getting her spirit back. If she would have been your dog, you would not had given her this chance?

And where do you get it from that "my vet' suggested to put her down? I can't find it anywhere in this thread.

I respect the fact that you are concerned about the dog's well-being, but I do think you judge and come to (quite drastic) conclusions a little too quick, while you don't even know me, the dog or the situation.

Nienke

[FolkGuitar]

As Dustoff already said, prognosis is poor. That's what the first vet said and the second one, where I passed 2 hours ago. Still I would like the opinion of the third vet in the States as she is also a veterinary neurologist and from a CM vet who also does acupuncture on animals. Unfortunately, the latter one practises on Tuesday evenings and Saturdays, and now I can't leave.

One good thing about all those dogs: they keep me from the street.

Nienke

At first glance it appears that you are trying very hard to save this dog. That is a very charitable thing to do. But with all the pain that it seems to be in, the blood in the urine, the whimpering, and especially the broken spine, compared with all the time that you are spending running around looking to scan X-rays, going from Vet to Vet, asking opinions, this poor creature is suffering so that YOU can feel better, not the dog. There comes a time to put it down. Even one of your vets suggested it.

I wonder if this thread is more of an advertisement for your business than a good will appeal? How long will you make this animal suffer?

The Fly Fisherman

And where do you get it from that "my vet' suggested to put her down? I can't find it anywhere in this thread.

Nienke

Just look up....

I think I have to agree with the Fly Fisherman. When two vets say 'the prognosis is poor.' doesn't that give you cause to think more of the animal's suffering than waiting until Saturday when you can speak to a third vet? Sounds like advertising to me too. I realize it's a competitive business, but please.... think of the animal.

[Tywais]

After 2 days with me and 5 days after the accident she doesn't pee blood anymore. And today she has called us several times, not because she needed to pee each time, but because she wanted to come out and walk and sniff around. She clearly is getting her spirit back.

Just look up....

I think I have to agree with the Fly Fisherman. When two vets say 'the prognosis is poor.' doesn't that give you cause to think more of the animal's suffering than waiting until Saturday when you can speak to a third vet? Sounds like advertising to me too. I realize it's a competitive business, but please.... think of the animal.

I believe she has answered that with her quote in bold above that signs of recovery are showing. "Prognosis is poor" and "no chance" are not the same and believe Nienke is in the best position to make that determination. Really can't see how members are reading more into this then it is.

Also will point out forum rule number 7) "Our contracts with our advertisers prohibit comments with regard to advertisements which appear on our forums." This is for those who, for whatever reason, believe she is advertising.

[Dustoff]

Just look up....

I think I have to agree with the Fly Fisherman. When two vets say 'the prognosis is poor.' doesn't that give you cause to think more of the animal's suffering than waiting until Saturday when you can speak to a third vet? Sounds like advertising to me too. I realize it's a competitive business, but please.... think of the animal.

Yep, exactly the argument I posed when it came time to stuff my old Granny into the box.

Broken hip, prognosis poor, she yelling, "But I want to live!"

We miss her but...

I can just see one of you telling my wife she should put her dog down before all healing options have been totally explored.

She throws a mean right hook.

Let us know if you get a "poor healing prognosis" somewhere down the road, willya guys?

Surely several TV members would be willing to come over and, umm, help you move on.

In spite of the ridiculous posts that are sure to continue, I hope this thread continues long enough for those of us who actually care about animals to find out how the pup is progressing.

And before youse even start with, "Hey, I care about animals!" perhaps you could wonder, as I do, how you rationalize putting down a dog, who someone obviously cares very much for, without even having a glance for yourself. While what you are proposing may sound cool to you, it registers a bit cold on my giveacrapometer...

[Ulysses G.]

Yep, exactly the argument I posed when it came time to stuff my old Granny into the box.

Broken hip, prognosis poor, she yelling, "But I want to live!"

We miss her but...

Sounds like Granny is lucky to have such a caring grandson who just wants to stop her suffering before she spends the entire durn inheritance!

[Nienke]

Just got an answer back from the vet in The States: She says that in some cases the nerves can still be intact despite the broken vertebrae, so that there there might only be case of paraparesis and not total paralysis. Sometimes one can observe paraplegia, which will disappear when the swelling is gone and the vertebrae heal.

She also said that personally she would observe how things will progress, as the accident only happened a very short while ago.

I do certainly think now that there is good hope for this dog, because just 10 minutes ago, when I was sitting with her she moved her right hindleg just a little!

I had a while ago a Shih Tzu under my care with a broken pelvis and a broken leg. Also he pee-ed blood for a couple of days, couldn't walk, was in terrible pain, and due to the swelling had great difficulties with pee-ing and poo-ing. After a month he was hobbling around like a happy dog, and got his old attitude back, i.e. feeling as if he was master of the universe

Nienke

[Tywais]

I do certainly think now that there is good hope for this dog, because just 10 minutes ago, when I was sitting with her she moved her right hindleg just a little!

That's good to hear Nienke.

I will make one last comment regarding the 'advertising' issue. Nienke is a sponsor of Thaivisa and has the rights to advertise when she wishes. As such, she does not have to hide the fact she is advertising as some seem to think. Believe that is enough on the issue and would like this to get back on and stay on topic. This is a formal caution to not attempt to abuse the sponsors of Thaivisa or make accusations. Thanks.

[FolkGuitar]

I do certainly think now that there is good hope for this dog, because just 10 minutes ago, when I was sitting with her she moved her right hindleg just a little!

That's good to hear Nienke.

I will make one last comment regarding the 'advertising' issue. Nienke is a sponsor of Thaivisa and has the rights to advertise when she wishes. As such, she does not have to hide the fact she is advertising as some seem to think. Believe that is enough on the issue and would like this to get back on and stay on topic. This is a formal caution to not attempt to abuse the sponsors of Thaivisa or make accusations. Thanks.

I'll be happy to apologize for the mention of advertising. I wasn't aware that if you paid you could say what ever you wished to say. Mea Culpa. Again, please accept my apologies for that.

Regarding the dog's suffering, no... I've owned too many animals over the years to want to see any of them suffering for days on end, especially when several vets say that the prognosis is NOT good. We all know of 'miracles.' Probably we've had some ourselves. But they are the exception, not the rule.

It's good to rescue animals, and medicate/treat those that can be. But it's also good to be realistic, and understand that death is just another part of life. Live here long enough and you learn that you get another chance. "Being born is easy. Death can be easy. It's the transition that can be so d@mn difficult." Most anyone who's been in a war zone or worked in a hospital have seen the dead move. That doesn't mean they are coming back to life. It just means they've moved.

What about triage? There are hundreds of dogs in the Chiang Mai temples that could use rescue time and energy too, and perhaps with a much better chance of survival. Obviously one can't take them all in, but that's one part of what triage is all about; saving as many as possible with the time and equipment/funding available. Saving as many as possible with the time and equipment/funding available. Saving as many as possible with the time and equipment/funding available.

[Dustoff]

I'll be happy to apologize for the mention of advertising. I wasn't aware that if you paid you could say what ever you wished to say. Mea Culpa. Again, please accept my apologies for that.

A good post overall, FG. It seems that this is all coming down to an issue of semantics and there is no doubt that we could all learn to read other's posts a bit more carefully. I frequently have to explain that English is not my first language but, since it is the only language I speak, I don't have a 'first language'..

I do not think that TW was saying that "if you paid you could say what ever you wished to say". Nor do I think that Nienke was taking any liberties in that direction. A sponsor, as I understand it, can write of or promote their business openly on TV which is only right since sponsors are the very ones who keep these forums alive. Thinking that Nienke is hiding some ulterior profit motive in her posts therefore makes no sense.

Otherwise, I believe that she is subject to the very same forum rules as are we all.

Regarding the dog's suffering, no... I've owned too many animals over the

years to want to see any of them suffering for days on end, especially when

several vets say that the prognosis is NOT good. We all know of 'miracles.'

Probably we've had some ourselves. But they are the exception, not the rule.

Again, I suspect a misunderstanding. I was the first to use the term prognosis in this thread and should have been more specific as I did not mean a 'survival' prognosis but a very low expectation of total recovery of lower extremities given the severity of the spinal injury.

Most anyone who's been in a war zone or worked in a

hospital have seen the dead move. That doesn't mean they are coming back to

life. It just means they've moved.

Agreed, but only to a point. Having served as a combat helicopter ambulance pilot for 18 months and having assisted in emergency OR dealing with extremely traumatic injuries during that entire time, I know a bit about triage. It is NOT about separating out those who are in pain and leaving them behind! Pain is, after all, transient and inconsequential when considering more important matters such as returning the patient to something called life rather than death.

As to the movements of the dead, I can relate many, many personal stories of the "dead" moving - something we took very seriously - who turned out to be...alive...

Off topic, I know TW - sorry. But had I given up on my cat (posted above), I would have missed out on many years of giggles and snuggles with one absolutely incredible animal...

[FolkGuitar]

I'll be happy to apologize for the mention of advertising. I wasn't aware that if you paid you could say what ever you wished to say. Mea Culpa. Again, please accept my apologies for that.

A good post overall, FG. It seems that this is all coming down to an issue of semantics and there is no doubt that we could all learn to read other's posts a bit more carefully. I frequently have to explain that English is not my first language but, since it is the only language I speak, I don't have a 'first language'..

I do not think that TW was saying that "if you paid you could say what ever you wished to say". Nor do I think that Nienke was taking any liberties in that direction. A sponsor, as I understand it, can write of or promote their business openly on TV which is only right since sponsors are the very ones who keep these forums alive. Thinking that Nienke is hiding some ulterior profit motive in her posts therefore makes no sense.

Otherwise, I believe that she is subject to the very same forum rules as are we all.

Regarding the dog's suffering, no... I've owned too many animals over the

years to want to see any of them suffering for days on end, especially when

several vets say that the prognosis is NOT good. We all know of 'miracles.'

Probably we've had some ourselves. But they are the exception, not the rule.

Again, I suspect a misunderstanding. I was the first to use the term prognosis in this thread and should have been more specific as I did not mean a 'survival' prognosis but a very low expectation of total recovery of lower extremities given the severity of the spinal injury.

Most anyone who's been in a war zone or worked in a

hospital have seen the dead move. That doesn't mean they are coming back to

life. It just means they've moved.

Agreed, but only to a point. Having served as a combat helicopter ambulance pilot for 18 months and having assisted in emergency OR dealing with extremely traumatic injuries during that entire time, I know a bit about triage. It is NOT about separating out those who are in pain and leaving them behind! Pain is, after all, transient and inconsequential when considering more important matters such as returning the patient to something called life rather than death.

As to the movements of the dead, I can relate many, many personal stories of the "dead" moving - something we took very seriously - who turned out to be...alive...

Off topic, I know TW - sorry. But had I given up on my cat (posted above), I would have missed out on many years of giggles and snuggles with one absolutely incredible animal...

Yes, you're correct. Semantics causes a great many difficulties, as does verbal communication in general. I 'think it' but it changes when I 'say it.' You 'hear it' but it changes when you think about it, then it changes again when 'you speak it,' and changes yet again when I 'hear it,' then 'think about it.' It's amazing we get anything straight!

As a corpsman in the same area as you, probably about the same time, we were taught 'triage' to mean first deciding who was most critical, then deciding who among those most critical could be treated and probably 'returned to function' with what we had available, and third, how we could save the greatest number. 'Pain' never entered into the equation. Nor, 'supposedly' did emotional involvement. THERE is where I am having difficulties with the OP's methodology. Perhaps I too emotionally cold.

And like you, I need to have a cat around. Always have. Always will. Had lots of them over the years. There are no words that can express the pleasure that a cat can bring to a person.

If I could have a dog where I live, I'd have that too, but I no longer live in an area where a dog can run free. Last dog I had got into a fight with probably a racoon or some other sharp clawed animal that opened up her up like an autopsy incision. She lived through the fight, but the vet said that trying to put her back together would probably fail. He recommended that he put her down. I shared my life with that dog for 15 years. I wasn't going to let a complete stranger put her down. But I wasn't going to let her remain in pain either. One of the hardest things I ever had to do in my life. But it had to be done... for the dog's sake. Her pain was more important than mine.

My cat sleeps between me and my wife, and is never more than a few steps away, and changes rooms as we do. She's the first thing we look for when we come back to the house, and if she isn't there to greet us, we go looking for her immediately. She's important in our lives. She 'helps' with the dishes, 'helps' with the cleaning, watches TV with us, is generally always around unless there is a gecko to be hunted. But if she gets torn up and the quality of her life diminishes because of pain and suffering, and someone who knows more about animal medicine than I do says she's suffering too much, I'll have to do the same thing. I won't let her suffer. I can't. But that's me.

[Tywais]

I do not think that TW was saying that "if you paid you could say what ever you wished to say". Nor do I think that Nienke was taking any liberties in that direction. A sponsor, as I understand it, can write of or promote their business openly on TV which is only right since sponsors are the very ones who keep these forums alive. Thinking that Nienke is hiding some ulterior profit motive in her posts therefore makes no sense.

Otherwise, I believe that she is subject to the very same forum rules as are we all.

I wasn't happy about that phrasing by FG but decided it was just badly worded or a misinterpretation of my post. All in all Dustoff, you are spot on with your explanation. Thanks. Also thanks to you FG for your polite response and understanding.

[Nienke]

'Pain' never entered into the equation. Nor, 'supposedly' did emotional involvement. THERE is where I am having difficulties with the OP's methodology. Perhaps I too emotionally cold.

My cat sleeps between me and my wife, and is never more than a few steps away, and changes rooms as we do. She's the first thing we look for when we come back to the house, and if she isn't there to greet us, we go looking for her immediately. She's important in our lives. She 'helps' with the dishes, 'helps' with the cleaning, watches TV with us, is generally always around unless there is a gecko to be hunted. But if she gets torn up and the quality of her life diminishes because of pain and suffering, and someone who knows more about animal medicine than I do says she's suffering too much, I'll have to do the same thing. I won't let her suffer. I can't. But that's me.

Dear Folkguitar,

I do understand your reasoning and I do respect your feelings concerning animal suffering and animals in general, based on what you've written.

From your text it becomes clear to me that you obviously have no idea of who I am and what my skills are. However, you still make conclusions from a text that you read according to your own perceptions, i.e. in the way you receive the message and not in the way that I've written it with my own emotions, intentions and know-how (of course, this is the danger of a written text where you can't see the person). You haven't seen the dog and her condition and I get the impression that your know-how on paralysis or paresis, paraplegia, paraparesis is not sufficient. Can't say I'm an expert in that as well, but I have the tools and the network to gain the knowledge.

Running a business or any other organisation that deals with animals will involve lots of emotions (my own and those of the owners) but one also needs to be realistic and be prepared to increase one's knowledge on both the physical as well as the psychological level of the animal and everything that involves that, and be 24/7 available to the animals' needs. In Holland, where I come from, you can't open a business with animals if you don't have the basic knowledge on care (including hygiene), feeding, health, pathology, behavior, housing, and the breeds. I do agree with that, so I took several courses and succeeded. As with the knowledge I gained through the years more questions were and are raised, resulting in a life-time study. This is something I've no problem with as my work is my passion.

I work very close with the veterinarians, listen carefully to them, ask loads of questions, think with them, will look up the things they say and don't know yet, and come with suggestions or answers from specialists that i've contacted over the net. It isn't the first time, that with the information I brought to the vet, he went into his books and together we came to a cure of the dog. The liver problem dog did not react on the vet's treatment and was saved because I went on the net and got help elsewhere. With the St. Bernard who has heartproblems and got epileptic attacks, it was me who asked the vet if an ECG would be an option in order to find out what causes the epileptic attacks, as they are not primary. With the info from the ECG I went on the net again, and the dog is still alive and enjoying. And believe me, at a certain point I did phone the owner to ask for permission to put the dog down when I thought the time would be there.

Years ago I had a cocker under my care that overnight became completely paralysed in the back (at the owner's house), cause unknown. The prognosis was poor as well. However, after a certain time (i forgot how long) this dog was up and running again, not 100%, but definitely for 90%. Now I know that vaccines can cause (temporary) paralysis in the hind quarters of the animal.

And no, I do not have only success stories. I had put down a stray cat with severe jaundice caused by FIV. With treatment the cat's life could have been prolonged, but there was no one who could take care of it. Having this cat at the kennel with all these dogs around, who definitely would attack it when loose, wouldn't have been humane to the cat. Another dog died of liver failure caused by the vaccine. The cortico-steroids, on top of the antibiotics, he received from the vet were too much for the already severly damaged liver.

The vet's I'm working with are great, but they certainly do not know it all (and neither do I). A vet did not recognize a non-healing wound on my dog's paw as being Squamous Cell Carcinoma, another vet didn't recognize the bump on his shoulder as being abnormal. I had to put him down last April as the bump turned out to be bone cancer.

Because vet's do not always know the answers (one needs to be able to recognize that in the first place) I'll go for second and third opinions, and specialists know more on a certain subjects than regular vet's. Vet's tend to treat diseases and my question is always: what causes the disease in the first place. This question is important because many times only some symptoms are treated but not the cause, resulting in a return of the disease or another disease as the first one was suppressed, not cured.

Furthermore, regular med's are not always the answer to a cure. Sometimes alternative med's do a better job, sometimes it's a combination of both, sometimes only a simple change to good quality food can do wonders, and sometimes one has to admit that there is no cure possible anymore (but only after all options has been carefully reviewed).

Nienke

[FolkGuitar]

I do not think that TW was saying that "if you paid you could say what ever you wished to say". Nor do I think that Nienke was taking any liberties in that direction. A sponsor, as I understand it, can write of or promote their business openly on TV which is only right since sponsors are the very ones who keep these forums alive. Thinking that Nienke is hiding some ulterior profit motive in her posts therefore makes no sense.

Otherwise, I believe that she is subject to the very same forum rules as are we all.

I wasn't happy about that phrasing by FG but decided it was just badly worded or a misinterpretation of my post. All in all Dustoff, you are spot on with your explanation. Thanks. Also thanks to you FG for your polite response and understanding.

Hey, I've got to learn the rules somehow...

I can accept a slap on the wrist now and then. I just hope that I don't make the same mistakes twice.

Then I'd deserve more than just a slap on the wrist...

I'm not here to make waves; I'm here to ride them!

Edited October 19, 2007 by FolkGuitar