Stick Vs Automatic

[Thaiboxer]

Lots of vehicles are sold without ABS here in Thailand. ABS is pretty standard on a lot of vehicles now in the US. ABS here is considered an option and commands a good deal more money when you purchase a vehicle.

[Yorkie]

I've been driving for 40 years and all of my "owned" vehicles have had manual boxes. I have driven vehicles with automatic boxes but I could never really get the hang of them. My main problem was when driving on winding country roads in the UK and lifting my foot off the throttle for a corner caused the box to change up a gear (insufficient practice I guess).

[madjbs]

I experienced the opposite, whenever I took my foot off the accelerator the car just carried on going at the same speed with very little engine braking. You have to use the brake to slow down even a little bit.

[Thaiboxer]

Standard automatic gearboxes sometimes get stuck shifting between gear ratios at certain speeds/gradients...it's as if the hydraulic pressure inside the gearbox is right on the borderline between the two gear ratios. Many modern automatic gearboxes (such as CVT's) have eliminated this problem.

Still, the auto doesn't give you as much control over the gear ratios as a stick shift and when it comes to repairs, the stick will be nicer to your wallet.

[peterd1961]

Hi Thaiboxer,

What kind of driver you are! because every aut broke whit you! I drive whole my live aut and some over 300000 km and I never had a problem whit them. Because you don't like them it doesn't mean the always broke! An automatic gearbox is very good and don't broke iff you use normal.

Regards Peter

[Thaiboxer]

Peter...I've owned two vehicles with automatic gearboxes and never had a problem with either gearbox. When I commented on automatics being less reliable and more expensive to repair, that doesn't mean that I'm a bad driver who's had bad experiences with automatics. I'm basing my comments on what I know about them and the experiences of people who have had problems with them. I prefer manuals for many reasons, most of which have been stated either by me and/or by other manual drivers on this thread.

[Plus]

I don't think you'll find many cars offered with manual and no ABS even in Thailand. Those will the base versions with smallest engines, cheapest interior trim, and without any other gadgets.

So yes, you'll save money, maybe around 200k for Jazz/Vios between top spec version and manual but I doubt you'll like it very much.

The original question is outdated. Manual/auto is not really a choice anymore.

[Crossy]

The original question is outdated. Manual/auto is not really a choice anymore.

In the medieval UK, auto is still an option on most makes, if you don't specify auto you will get a manual

An auto on a 4x4 that is used off road could get you into trouble if you don't use it properly, for example, using low ratio hold when descending grades, of course using it in this mode makes it into a manual

Personally I don't like autos, Luddite that I am, but that's my opinion of course.

In the West an auto is not an issue as maintenance is so much better, however in Thailand an auto could become a money pit (like my last one did) as the facilities for repairing modern boxes really don't exist.

Edited October 29, 2007 by Crossy

[wileycoyote]

My wife prefers an automatic.she finds it more amenable and safer.

Wiley Coyote

[dominique355]

Gearboxes have made a lot of progress in the last ten years, automatic as well as manual ones. Automatics especially, with the introduction of computer control and sensing the driver's style.

While older autos did indeed shift up when you go off the accelerator and shift back when you accelerate, modern automatic gearboxes, when in "S-mode", keep the gear or even shift back when they sense that the driver is slowing down. Some gearboxes learn (Porsche, Mercedes-Benz, AUDI) and adapt to the driver.

CVT "gearboxes" don't really shift, the can change the ratio continuously, which is very smooth for the driver and passengers. They do have some "preset" ratios, though (e.g. the Honda Jazz), and when you switch to "manual", you can select these preset ratios.

Then there are sequential gearboxes (like motorbikes have), now available for your BMW M3 and of course in racing.

The latest in Formula 1 are seamless shifting gearboxes. I didn't really understand how they work, but they were the reason for several DNFs this year.

[Thaiboxer]

Wileycoyote..My wife prefers autos as well and with the notorious traffic jams in BKK, it can be an advantage. If we can afford a new vehicle someday, it will be an auto which will be for her. For me, I will stick with my "classic car" which is a manual as I love driving manuals.

Crossy is from the UK where manuals are still number one whereas I'm from the USA (Florida) where automatics are the most common. For some vehicles you have to specify that you want a manual (I think the Toyota Camry is an example). I took my driving test with an automatic and my first car (Dodge Lancer) was an automatic with the shifting lever on the steering column. Once I learned how to drive a manual (second car), I've always preferred them, despite having had a second automatic vehicle (given to us by my father).

With automatic gearboxes becomming more computerized/less mechanical, it's harder to find facilities that have the tools/ability to repair them. Here in Thailand, you'd most likely have to go to a dealership to get somebody who can do a decent repair job on a modern automatic. The corner garage may patch it up any way they can and pray for the best.

Edited October 29, 2007 by Thaiboxer

[North]

I don't think you'll find many cars offered with manual and no ABS even in Thailand. Those will the base versions with smallest engines, cheapest interior trim, and without any other gadgets.

So yes, you'll save money, maybe around 200k for Jazz/Vios between top spec version and manual but I doubt you'll like it very much.

The original question is outdated. Manual/auto is not really a choice anymore.

Well, I found a couple af cars with manual gearbox and no ABS:

Like Honda Civic-manual:

no ABS, no airbags, no EBD and no BA. Maybe Honda wants to get rid of the few, who still likes the manual gearbox

And the same goes for the Toyota Corolla Altis with manual gearbox.

I am not looking for a manual transmission to save money in general, (I don´t mind to save a little on fuel consumption though), but the problem for us living here and wanting manual transmissions is, that we can only get the most basic models and no safety features, so for that reason my next car will probably have an auto gearbox

North

[moo9]

MANUAL for sure!

Unless you are on daily drives in BKK, a manual is much more fun.

Although I like this like Tiptronic, but that's only available on top line models.

I consider automatic cars as rather boring.

I am happy with my Vigo 4x4 manual, guess much more fun compared with an automatic one.

From time to time I drive a Camry 2.4 automatic and I find it terrible.

[dominique355]

It's true that today a person can shift gears using paddles or even the floor mounted shifter via electronic control units. However, the driver will have to depend entirely on these complex devices and any delay times associated with them. A regular manual gearbox is still more reliable and reacts instantly to driver input. To be fair, the electronic gizmos today do have very fast reaction times to driver input, however they're also more expensive to fix if something goes awry.

The new Ferrari 430 Scuderia changes gears in 0.05 seconds. No driver, no matter how skilled, can beat that. And the system is flawless. As a matter of fact, when in Formula 1 FIA wanted to abolish this kind of gearbox, the teams opposed these plans with the argument that drivers make mistakes that could ruin the engine, which is certainly much more expensive than this kind of gearbox, the technology of which is now fully developed and reliable.

The downside (for production cars) is the cost. When Ferrari still offered the choice of the conventional gearbox, I believe the surcharge for the Formula 1 gearbox was around US$ 12'000.-

[elkangorito]

I beg to differ. Using a gearbox for braking slows down the braking process. You loose time and concentration instead of applying full power to the braking pedal. Also, don't forget to disengage the clutch for a really hard braking. Step on the clutch and the brake at the same time for a maximum brake. Otherwise the engine will continue to pull the car forward. The method where you shift and brake and jump around the pedals, maybe even double clutch while shifting down, braking and accelerating at the same time is totally outdated. This was fine when there was no synchronization in the gearbox.

And don't use your handbrake in an emergency stop. Keep your hand on the steering wheel. Hopefully you have ABS and can avoid an obstacle while braking. The handbrake will imbalance your car and the spin follows immediately.

Who taught you how to drive? A Thai?

Among others Pilota Ferrari (Ferrari's driving school on the race track), AUDI 1st., 2nd. and 3rd. driving school on the race track, 15 years of active racing all over Europe on all big race tracks. Do I need to go on?

As for ABS...statistically, vehicles fitted with ABS are involved in more accidents compared to vehicles NOT fitted with ABS. Why? Because the owners of vehicles with ABS think that they can be more relaxed (more careless) about braking.

Do they still sell cars without ABS?

Assisted breaking (using gears) is an important part of driving.

Step on the clutch and the brake at the same time for a maximum brake. Otherwise the engine will continue to pull the car forward.

If you think that the above quote is correct, you know very little about engines & not much more about driving.

Are you familiar with the notion of "drag torque"? I guess not.

Ok, I think I might have misunderstood you;

Also, don't forget to disengage the clutch for a really hard braking. Step on the clutch and the brake at the same time for a maximum brake. Otherwise the engine will continue to pull the car forward.

This is true but I didn't read your post that way;

Using a gearbox for braking slows down the braking process. You loose time and concentration instead of applying full power to the braking pedal.

Anybody with an ounce of "manual" driving ability will know that if you apply too much brake whilst using assisted braking (gears), will actually allow the engine to provide an opposing force to that of the intended force (braking). Ie if you need to "stand on the brakes", disengage the clutch. Otherwise, assisted braking is a very beneficial thing, if you know how to use it (unlike Thais, who never use it).

With regard to Ferrari, I would doubt that anybody in this forum drives a Ferrari on "the street", let alone owns a Ferrari. Here, in this forum, talking about Ferraris in a "Stick vs Automatic" thread, is a bit like talking about the possibility of snow in Chaing Mai vs the possibility of snow in Austria.

As far as ABS is concerned, whether vehicles are manufactured with ABS or not, does not provide a reason why MOST vehicles are equiped with ABS. It is my belief that most vehicles are equiped with ABS purely to increase the profits of car manufacturers.

With regard to "drag torque", the word "drag" most of the time equates to a force that opposes an existing force, in a certain direction. Predominantly, the word "drag" is applied to "air" related physics. Please feel free to correct if I'm wrong.

Edited November 1, 2007 by elkangorito

[Thaiboxer]

That's true, I don't think anyone on this forum drives a Ferrari. I'd be afraid to drive a Ferrari on the streets of BKK if I had to pay for possible body damage!

I've always gone by the notion that the more complex a machine is (computerized automatic gearbox vs a stick shift), the more likely it is to break down. Should it break down, the repair bills would be MUCH higher. A stick can be started with a dead battery by moving the vehicle and popping the clutch from second/third gear. You can also use the gearbox to slow down since you have more control of the downshifting than you do with an auto.

Some poor Thai guy was crushed to death a few years back by his own car, which had to have been an auto. If I recall, he started the car while it was in park, and walked down the driveway (which probably wasn't steep) to open the gate. The car had some glitch (probably computer related) and went into gear, crushing this guy against his front gate. That wouldn't happen with a stick unless somebody wanted to do you in.

[Plus]

While still quite common in pickups, manuals are all but extinct in proper cars. Long ago I read that 80% of new cars in the US are autos, in Thailand the figure is even higher.

There's no choice anymore. You can harp about manuals as much as you like, neither buyers nor automakers are listening. If there's demand for faster driving, they'll put in an advanced autobox, like in 2l Civic. The extra costs are minimal, less than 5% of a total car value.

[Thaiboxer]

You're correct in that most cars in the States are automatics and automatics are huge here in Thailand. However, what do you mean by "proper cars?" Many regular city cars are offered with manual gearboxes and most would opt for a manual on a high performance sports car...it would be silly to have an automatic Porsche Boxter.

I seriously doubt manuals will ever go extinct. Most cars in Europe are manuals and so are vans and taxis. Manufacturers will respond to the demands of the people in the areas where they have their dealerships. Automatics are becomming more popular but it will be some time before the surpass manuals in popularity on a global scale.

[Plus]

They've been offering Porsche tiptronic on those for ages now. That kind of techonology is now offered on all European luxury and sport makes.

BMW Thailand doesn't even offer manual anymore for its 5 and 7 series

[dominique355]

I beg to differ. Using a gearbox for braking slows down the braking process. You loose time and concentration instead of applying full power to the braking pedal. Also, don't forget to disengage the clutch for a really hard braking. Step on the clutch and the brake at the same time for a maximum brake. Otherwise the engine will continue to pull the car forward. The method where you shift and brake and jump around the pedals, maybe even double clutch while shifting down, braking and accelerating at the same time is totally outdated. This was fine when there was no synchronization in the gearbox.

And don't use your handbrake in an emergency stop. Keep your hand on the steering wheel. Hopefully you have ABS and can avoid an obstacle while braking. The handbrake will imbalance your car and the spin follows immediately.

Who taught you how to drive? A Thai?

Among others Pilota Ferrari (Ferrari's driving school on the race track), AUDI 1st., 2nd. and 3rd. driving school on the race track, 15 years of active racing all over Europe on all big race tracks. Do I need to go on?

As for ABS...statistically, vehicles fitted with ABS are involved in more accidents compared to vehicles NOT fitted with ABS. Why? Because the owners of vehicles with ABS think that they can be more relaxed (more careless) about braking.

Do they still sell cars without ABS?

Assisted breaking (using gears) is an important part of driving.

Step on the clutch and the brake at the same time for a maximum brake. Otherwise the engine will continue to pull the car forward.

If you think that the above quote is correct, you know very little about engines & not much more about driving.

Are you familiar with the notion of "drag torque"? I guess not.

Ok, I think I might have misunderstood you;

Also, don't forget to disengage the clutch for a really hard braking. Step on the clutch and the brake at the same time for a maximum brake. Otherwise the engine will continue to pull the car forward.

This is true but I didn't read your post that way;

Using a gearbox for braking slows down the braking process. You loose time and concentration instead of applying full power to the braking pedal.

Anybody with an ounce of "manual" driving ability will know that if you apply too much brake whilst using assisted braking (gears), will actually allow the engine to provide an opposing force to that of the intended force (braking). Ie if you need to "stand on the brakes", disengage the clutch. Otherwise, assisted braking is a very beneficial thing, if you know how to use it (unlike Thais, who never use it).

With regard to Ferrari, I would doubt that anybody in this forum drives a Ferrari on "the street", let alone owns a Ferrari. Here, in this forum, talking about Ferraris in a "Stick vs Automatic" thread, is a bit like talking about the possibility of snow in Chaing Mai vs the possibility of snow in Austria.

As far as ABS is concerned, whether vehicles are manufactured with ABS or not, does not provide a reason why MOST vehicles are equiped with ABS. It is my belief that most vehicles are equiped with ABS purely to increase the profits of car manufacturers.

With regard to "drag torque", the word "drag" most of the time equates to a force that opposes an existing force, in a certain direction. Predominantly, the word "drag" is applied to "air" related physics. Please feel free to correct if I'm wrong.

My reference to Ferrari was only a "historical" remark, because it was Ferrari who introduced this kind of gearbox, which I believe will become more and more popular even with every-day street cars. As far as I know, the following cars offer this kind of gearbox: Alfa Romeo (Selespeed), AUDI (A3, TT), BMW (M3), Volkswagen (R32, GTI).

I did own a couple of Ferraris back in Europe but sold them all when I moved to Thailand.

The drag torque is a torque the engine applies to the clutch and thus ultimately to the wheels when the speed of the wheels and the engine speed are not in harmony such as under heavy braking. The engine then tries to get the wheels to move forward while the brakes oppose this. Usually modern ABS and ESP are able to correct that by actually accelerating the engine. I might not have used the correct English word (I looked it up on www.leo.org), the German word is "Schlepp Moment".

[mattias33]

Some poor Thai guy was crushed to death a few years back by his own car, which had to have been an auto. If I recall, he started the car while it was in park, and walked down the driveway (which probably wasn't steep) to open the gate. The car had some glitch (probably computer related) and went into gear, crushing this guy against his front gate. That wouldn't happen with a stick unless somebody wanted to do you in.

Leaving a automatic in "park" without handbrake is a common reason for vehicles moving around without drivers! Also without the engine running. It is pretty amazing that many people that know that if you put a stick in "neutral" you have to set on handbrake before leaving the car, and the same people never put on handbrake when they have the car in "park" on a automatic. This is a common thing in Europe aswell, allthough i never heard accidents where people died.

If he was stupid enough to stand in front of a car with no handbrake, with the back against it opening a gate, id say it could very well happen with a stick gearbox aswell. Obviously this guy had his thoughts on the lottery instead of on what he was doing. Common thing among thaiboys, seen it before, hahaha. Sad for him though....

[Thaiboxer]

With a stick shift in gear, the accelerator would have to be pressed in order to keep the engine from stalling and the car from just stopping since the gears would hold it in place. Other than a car in neutral with no parking brake on that rolls down a steep hill, a stick shift cannot engage and run you over from a distance without somebody actually driving it.

[mattias33]

With a stick shift in gear, the accelerator would have to be pressed in order to keep the engine from stalling and the car from just stopping since the gears would hold it in place. Other than a car in neutral with no parking brake on that rolls down a steep hill, a stick shift cannot engage and run you over from a distance without somebody actually driving it.

Automatic in mode "park" needs a handbreak, stick shift in mode "neutral" needs a handbreak. I think we agreed already, but lets point it out simple.

[Crossy]

With a stick shift in gear, the accelerator would have to be pressed in order to keep the engine from stalling and the car from just stopping since the gears would hold it in place. Other than a car in neutral with no parking brake on that rolls down a steep hill, a stick shift cannot engage and run you over from a distance without somebody actually driving it.

Automatic in mode "park" needs a handbreak, stick shift in mode "neutral" needs a handbreak. I think we agreed already, but lets point it out simple.

Actually not quite true, a manual in neutral and auto in park are not the same, the auto when in park actually locks the transmission (effectively selecting two gears at once), try pushing one.

You can leave an auto on a slope in P and it won't move (not recommended). The problems occur when (with the engine running) the transmisson's brain has a quirk and selects a gear, away we go with no driver, something which is not going to happen with a manual.

I rarely use the handbrake on either an auto or manual preferring to leave the manual in 1st gear, handbrake goes on when on a slope for added security (along with full lock turning in to the curb), there again I don't leave the vehicle with the engine running when I'm not in the driving seat.

Edited November 7, 2007 by Crossy

[Thaiboxer]

Same here...I don't use the handbrake on my manual unless I have to. I was taught to simply park the thing in first gear; the gears will keep it from going anywhere unless somebody goes inside the car and gets it into neutral. A lot of folks here will use the handbrake when stopped on flat ground or when leaving the car parked overnight...this puts a lot of stress on the steel cable which runs from the inside of the vehicle to the rear brakes. Someday if you really need that handbrake, the cable may snap from having been stressed so much. It's a good idea to preserve that handbrake since it's the only thing that doesn't rely on the hydraulic braking system to stop the vehicle.

[asiaworld]

Same here...I don't use the handbrake on my manual unless I have to. I was taught to simply park the thing in first gear; the gears will keep it from going anywhere unless somebody goes inside the car and gets it into neutral. A lot of folks here will use the handbrake when stopped on flat ground or when leaving the car parked overnight...this puts a lot of stress on the steel cable which runs from the inside of the vehicle to the rear brakes. Someday if you really need that handbrake, the cable may snap from having been stressed so much. It's a good idea to preserve that handbrake since it's the only thing that doesn't rely on the hydraulic braking system to stop the vehicle.

That's an interesting view.. i never heard of this before .. wondr how many do this, and does it really immobilises the car ?!? i mean with automatics ok, as long as it's in P , but manuals ..weird..

[Plus]

Not only autos are bad, it's handbrakes turn now.

There was an accident at PTT I saw on TV about a week ago - a guy parked in front of 7-Eleven, backed off into a motorbike, moved forward a little then got out to see what happened. The truck drove up the steps and into the shop, through the glass windows, doors, shelfs - everything, utill it got stuck at the fridge with drinks.

Have no idea who will pay for the damage. I bet not Toyota.

[Thaiboxer]

Plus....Perhaps the guy forgot to put the thing in "park" or it was in park and a computer glitch caused "drive" to engage. Some trucks with automatic gearboxes can move with a fair amount of power just by putting the thing in drive and allowing the engine to idle.

asiaworld..Putting an auto in "park" is fine provided it's not parked on a steep hill. The park mechanism is simply a steel pin that slips in there locking the gears so the car won't move. It's been said that putting the car in "park" AND using the handbrake is a good idea for parking an automatic on steep hills. A parking brake uses non-hydraulic components to force the rear brake pads against the drums or discs (if the car has disc brakes in the rear) when the handle is pulled from inside the vehicle. Depending on the condition of the parking brake components and/or rear brake pads, the parking brake will keep the car still on steep hills, however it can be overpowered by the engine/transmission. If you ever start driving and the car seems sluggish, better check that parking brake!

[chonabot]

I normally drive bigger cars in the UK , 7 series, E - class Mercs and Jags , all pretty cheap ones mind you. I always beleived that in a bigger car it had be Auto.

Recently I purchased a very nice S-type Jag , just the 3 litre V6 version though, about 5 years old. I test drove it , then test drove the 4 litre V8 Auto , which was 280 bhp, 40 more than the 3 litre.

Apart from a bit of mid-range torque in the larger car I much preferred the manual. The 0-60 times were pretty similar , about 6.8 seconds, good for a large car. But the overall feel of the Manual Jag was much less vague and felt sportier in every way. It's a shame they don't do a manual version of the S-type R ( Supercharged - 400 bhp etc )

[Thaiboxer]

I don't think I've ever seen a manual Jag in the States where I'm from. Automatics rule over there and they're catching on in Europe although I think manual will be dominant for some time to come. Some countries in Europe won't grant you a license to drive a stick unless you've taken/passed the driving test with one. I would imagine most Europeans could drive a stick with ease.