Am I Naive?

[Jogsy]

Hey There everyone,

Just after a bit of feedback... I recently met a really nice guy whilst holidaying in Bangkok and have kept in touch and agreed to go back and see him with a view to spending a year or so in Thailand teaching English.

My question is, this guy is 10 years older then me (He is 33, I am 23) and I fear he may think I am a lot more wealthy than I am (This thought hadn't entered my head until I started to read about "Money boys" on various differant forums, as, when he met me, I work in the Travel Industry and so had a rather nice suite at a 5 star hotel and he asked if I was travelling business class, which I was.

Anyway, I have told him that if I were to come to Bangkok I would earn very little and I dont have a huge amount of savings so wouldn't be able to treat him to all the luxuries that I see older guys treating their younger Thai b/f's to and he said that he didn't care... Is he genuine or is he holding on to the thought that I am maybe quite wealthy and can spoil him with gifts etc...

Any opinions grateful received...

[ProThaiExpat]

A little more information would be helpful.

What is his occupation, does he own his own home, did he pay for anything when you were together, does he act dominant, etc?

What he "brings to the table" often dictates the mode of the relationship. Money boys usually are offering youth and beauty in exchange for financial security to an older and better off farang.

This does not apply in your case. Perhaps he has financial resources that could make your life on a poor teacher's salary more livable. Perhaps he can afford to pay your way on occasion?

Without more information, we would be "shooting in the dark" (not a pun) to give you any perspective now.

[Jogsy]

He works as head waiter in bar. Rents a place. pretty modest but clean... He seems to be really nice and genuine... just read too many stories about money boys

[ProThaiExpat]

Even as a teacher, your income will be much greater than his, so he may look to you to pick up most of the tabs when you are together.

If he works in a gay bar frequented by farang, he may very well expect to advantage himself by knowing you.

Enjoy him and say no when enough is enough.

[Jogsy]

D'Oh... Not what I was wanting to hear!

Ahh well, go in with an open mind and wallet I guess!? , I've no problem with shouting dinner and movies and what not, and if I were to live there, then yeah, if things worked out, whats mine would be his. I just dont want a boy who see's me as a cash cow... fair enough if there is emotion involved and we can both enjoy spending our money but if he is looking to me as a means to something better, he could be sorely dissapointed...

[Skipton]

Jogsy, I hear your concerns, however it sounds like you have nothing to worry about. I had the same worries recently for absolutely no reason whatsoever (other than being told horror stories from other people). I think in hindsight I listened to these stories too much I stayed away from the bars and clubs and when I met someone who was clearly a great guy, I nearly got cold feet, that would have been a big mistake, a huge mistake. I would have ignored a guy who now means more and more to me.

Since this I,ve met so many great folk and can vouch that theres 100's of nice guys here, as there are in every town. Dont worry too much about ifs and maybes, listen to others well observed advice of course, but dont be too concerned, not everyone is chasing your wallet.

[Jogsy]

That's great news Skipton. So how long have you been there? Offer any advice to a fool hardy English boy about to jump right in?

I really like him, he is so sweet and call's me regularly in Australia (Again something which strikes me as showing he is genuine?) anyway, I am coming back to Bangkok in September to stay with him for a week. Am nervous and excited... Tell me how and where you met your b/f?

J

[Skipton]

and you won't have to spend your life thinking "what if ........ ?".

Exactly!

You have a weeks holiday coming up, you will no doubt have an absolute blast and the concerns will fade.

[Jogsy]

Totally

Like I said, I'm not worried about being milked dry, I dont have much to milk. More concerned with leading some one up the path who thinks I can offer them something that I don't have. My money / our money, same to me, as long as we both have food in our bellies and a bed to sleep in (and of course for recreational sports) I'm happy and get to spend good quality time in LOS

Thanks all

[orchis]

Go for it! If he's not for real you'll learn quickly enough.

You are not naive you're unexperienced maybe, I think it's better to create your own thing than to be frightened by sobstories on the web, the good stories you wont read about too much.

There are ok guys who dont want you for your dough.

With him thirties and employed and you twenties the risk seems very small

and even then, just stick to what you consider good for you and fair to him.

I had an affair once and then this guy told me "I expect my boyfriend to spoil me" , well I walked out right there and then. It must have saved me a lot of heartache.

That said I pay my current bf's movies and meals when we re together because I make like 30 times what he earns, I do it because I want it and feel comfortable with it.

[ChrisP]

Jogsy..

I second the "go for it" comments here...

You only come this way once! Do what your heart tells you..

I've had one experience, which wasn't exactly "positive".. but it didn't put me off trying again.. I'm about to spend 2 weeks with a guy who calls ME every day (in America..). He is SO sweet, I hope he's "the real deal"... this time.

I do think the majority of Thai boys are extremely "romantically inclined'.... Not just in it for sex and/or money. Their upringing and culture encorages them to be open-hearted.

But they also DO like to "marry well"... as do we all!

Cheers

ChrisP

[Jogsy]

Cool, I guess I will go for it then!

So next question... When I fall madly in love, which I inevitably will (Wear my heart on my sleeve...) How do I go about staying in Thailand legally or getting him in to the UK or Australia? Or in that case, just any country where I can earn my Western Salary and earn enough to treat us both...

J

[Ijustwannateach]

Let's see... in Thailand there are moneyboys and there are moneyboys.

The moneyboy signs are fairly easy:

1. Wildly expensive clothes, accessories (mobile!), a shoe fetish, on no visible means of support or something poorly paid (like waiter).

2. Not rich, but speaks excellent English

3. Not rich, but speaks of foreign trips

4. Asks you to pay the tab not only for him but also a cluster of other similarly attired young men who disappear after the meal's finished/the club's opened.

5. Asks for "taxi money" home [esp. 200-300B] when a bus would do

But there's another category of "kept boys" which are trickier. These kept boys are lucky enough to find a number of rich foreign tourists who are attractive enough to them as partners to keep on a rotating basis- they may have half a dozen or so or more on a string, and visit them as they have their vacations. They get LOADS of money from these guys, too, as each foolishly believes himself to be the only one.

Now, the tricky part happens when THESE guys want a REAL boyfriend- they won't need money- they won't ask for money- they'll probably even pay for you, pick up the tab, anything!

Sounds like heaven until they have to go on a sudden "trip" for a few WEEKS, or aren't there on Valentine's day for no special reason, or mysteriously disappear because Daddy Moneybags has summoned them to Switzerland.

How do you know if you're dating a "kept boy?"

1. No visible means of support, but obviously has money- sends money home, has own apt., mb accessories, stereo, TV, the works

2. Will often claim to be "in the closet" and use this as an excuse not to be seen with you where/when it may compromise him, like the usual normal gay bars

3. Often absent on short/long trips "to the country," but you're not allowed to meet the family (see #2).

4. Gets angry or evasive when you finally start to raise the issue of where the money comes from

How do I know these things? Been there, done that!

Good luck....

[i'm only a LITTLE bitter!]

"Steven"

[orchis]

Same here. After 6 weeks of passion, a swiss in the closet banker, his friend of 8 years came down for the holidays. Thai guy had tried to live in Switzerland but couldn't. So I spent my first loy kratong, thanksgiving, christmas, new year and songkrang on my own here, makes you feel quite the 'sami noi'. When I suggested to be just friends he answered in that case he wouldnt talk anymore to me and he didnt even when we bumped into each other.

[Ijustwannateach]

Yes, they're oddly self-righteous and possessive about an area in which they've completely compromised themselves....

However, if they "come out" as being what they are, they can be excellent non-serious type partners. They have nothing better to do while waiting for their 2-month-a-year partners, after all; and if they're up front to me about not being serious then their other private life is not my concern.

"Steven"

[Pujun]

I'm a Hong Konger. Guys i met in thailand, if not money boys, then "Professional Lovers". A guy i met in last Novemeber, told me that he's an accountant. but his attitude, behaviour just don't sound like an accountant or professional. i suspect he's an ex-go-go-boy (now he's in his late 30s)

well, i did something to test him by asking him "what are balance sheet and profit & loss account as i heard these two terms frequently"...

guess what? he also never heard of these two terms!

i then changed topic, asked him if he knows anything about that little metal ball plant into a penis... yes, he's so happy to tell that thing in detail !!

[Ijustwannateach]

If a Thai knows English in Thailand there are two main ways it could have happened:

1. He/she is rich and has spent a lot of time abroad.

2. He/she is NOT rich, earning under 8K a month or so, but somehow learned English- and NOT at ECC. How do you think it happened? And how long did it take, with how many persons? and how exactly did they survive on 6-8K a month and 12 hour working days AND have time to hang out with people to learn this English?

There *is* a small middle class who could have simply studied a lot, worked in legitimate tourist industries, etc., but this group is so small as to be negligible when calculating the odds about your potential partners. Dating those who don't KNOW English cuts out a lot of this trouble, but then it is necessary (*gasp*) to learn Thai!

[Ice Treasure]

The small group is small in only a relative way, inasmuch as if you look for your company in bars you get barboys.

In fact many Thais' speak good English simply through hard work and study. Many have never been in a bar let alone been a bar boy. The reason so many here see so little of them is the place where they look.

Falang who can't maintain a relationship with a Thai of any of the 3 genders are usually the ones sitting at the bar in their cups crying out their sad tales to tourists too dumb to know better than to listen, about the thieving "love of their life".

Get out of the bar and look for friendship/love in places where the likelihood of meeting someone with similar interests to you, exists. If you love movies, look there, for example. It's not fair to judge all Thais by the standards you place on yourself.

[Ijustwannateach]

Touche, Ice Treasure! You have a point, though I feel that the ones with the best English are typically dodgy (if not rich).

"Steven"

[PeaceBlondie]

Thanks to Ice Treasure and IJWT, for their excellent comments.

[this is my virgin post on ThaiVisa! how many more virginities can a man lose?]

I owe a big part of my happy life in Chiang Mai, with my long-term Thai lover who's never been a barboy, to a guy named "Ijustwannateach." I took the advice IJWT gave me in April & May 2003, and it works.

The irony is that IJWT hasn't found his long term lover yet, but he's trying. And he's not always "looking in all the wrong places," either.

My boyfriend spent a decade in hotel management, learning English through practice. He's got a real, responsible job; I can visit him at work. We go to his family's home; his sisters stop on the street and wai me. We shop together, hand in hand, in public. I help him a little bit because I resemble Bill Gates to the average Thai, but he could support himself honestly without me, as he formerly did. We have no secrets.

Oh, look, ThaiVisa has a SubComandante Marcos smilie, cool:

[wcr]

PeaceBlondie

Why don't you enlighten us more with how you met him, his age etc.

[PeaceBlondie]

PeaceBlondie

Why don't you enlighten us more with how you met him, his age etc.

I took the advice of Ijustwannateach and looked in gay venues that weren't full of moneyboys. We met at a health club/sauna. When I told him I lived in the area (not just a tourist), he replied, "Are you looking for a boyfriend?" We quickly discovered that we were totally compatible, looking for the same things: companionship, sex, conversation, living together, etc. I learned that he has been openly gay all his life (he was 35 then), never married (probably never a LTR as we know it), gainfully employed long-term in the same field, respected, good family relationships, self-sufficient, etc. We moved in together, I got a long-term full-time teaching job, he continued to work, we met his family, etc. As "Steven" will attest, my b/f won't win any beauty contests, but he's faithful to me in every way, he really loves me, and many years in the future, he'll probably take care of me in my old age (I'm only 62 now).

However, he doesn't like Guns'n'Roses half as much as I do, and he thinks I drive my Honda CBR way too fast; he's right.

[ProThaiExpat]

PeaceBlonde: Welcome to the forum.

Your story is heartwarming and your willingness to share is admirable. Your story is one rarely heard and one I identify with in many ways. There are a lot more of us than the negative posts suggest.

In the west, I found saunas an excellent place to get the "sex" out of the way, and a sense of honesty and "naked truth" that spoke well for getting a relationship off the ground in a sound way. I had a lover of over five years met that way.

I went on at great length in the other thread you posted in about money in relationships so won't go on here other than to say your "hand holding" in public is admirable and courageous. Out of fear of offending as a guest in Thailand, I let my "other half" take the lead in when to hold hands and when not to. It happens occasionally, including a quick kiss, but I let him decide the proper time and let his mood control in this regard. He definitely develops a "defiant" attitude about certain things that happen in Thailand, so "I don't care" does come out when I question appropriate behaviour at times.

I have found that Thais can get as frustrated with TIT as westerners do, ie, bad service, lazy staff, incompetnet workmanship, deceit, corruption, etc. Likewise, I think Thai men who co-habitate with farang may well "adopt" some of our attitudes. It may well be a function of "weternization".

I have noticed, of late, that there are more younger Thais with an "age fixation" than before. Gay.com chat room for instance, three years ago, there were rarely age restrictions listed in "desires", now it is quite common. More westerniztion is my guess??

Again, welcome, your presence is appreciated.

[ChrisP]

I have a similar experience to ProThaiExpat...

My bf (westernized) and born in BKK... decides when to hold hands etc. in public.. (which is very often). and I often hear "I don't care"... when I ask is it ok here...?? Like in jatsujak weekend market!

Btw, although his Mum is very progressive, she is disapproving of her son's "pda" attitude...

ChrisP

[Ijustwannateach]

PB, you've got me blushing out my ears over here! Thanks for the kind words- your own advice comes in handy for a lot of folks, too!

I think it's not impossible for non-MBs to show physical affection in public here, but it is less likely. The MBs are pretty obvious to everyone anyway, so they have less to hide or care about, in a sense- as do those who are more obviously gay in their demeanor. However, it was pointed out to me by a Thai once that unless you're both wearing business clothes or accompanied by obvious female dates, a farang man and a Thai man socializing in public together are sorta assumed to be dating, no matter how respectable they look.

The guy I'm dating now is a little sensitive in close settings like restaurants- doesn't like to hold hands or have too much contact in public- but when we first meet on a date he's happy to give me a little half hug or squeeze my hand a moment.

ProThai and Chris,

Do you think it's westernization or sinofication? I've heard that a lot of these "westernized" attitudes are being spread more by the Chinese Thai than by farang here [cause one of the things farang DON'T want here usually is more of the same].

"Steven"

[Ice Treasure]

Interesting thread. I have been with my BF for going on 3 years. I adore the ground he walks on. He likewise which is my own surprise in many respects.

We don't hold hands in public, by mutual decision. We don't make a big deal of our relationship. We don't lie to one another and he has stood by me through one of the most horrifying things that can be visited on a man.

If your Thai BF is a money boy and you pay him, you are making a business decision, not a romance decision. If you do all the paying and he isn't a money boy, that's fair.

Best part of all relationships is that they make you realise what you are worth as a person when the person you love, loves you back.

My bf quotes that French film, Moulin Rouge... "The greatest thing you will ever learn, is to love and to be loved in return"

I sleep easily and long because I am much loved.

[Ijustwannateach]

IT, sounds like you've got a winner. Hang on to him.

I'm dating someone now (not quite serious yet but could go there) who's passing all the sincerity tests so far... and is very, very appreciative of me- in a way that's even more heartwarming because he's not just giving me sweet nothings ("Handsome" "sweetie" and so forth) but tells me specific things that he genuinely likes about me... lets me know he's really thinking about me, the person I am, and not just blinded by my beauty...

I was pretty sick recently and he cancelled an outing with his friends to come over and take care of me... he's so sweet, and smart and talented too- I hope things can work out between us!

"Steven"

[jdinasia]

If a Thai knows English in Thailand there are two main ways it could have happened:

1.  He/she is rich and has spent a lot of time abroad.

2.  He/she is NOT rich, earning under 8K a month or so, but somehow learned English- and NOT at ECC.  How do you think it happened?  And how long did it take, with how many persons?  and how exactly did they survive on 6-8K a month and 12 hour working days AND have time to hang out with people to learn this English?

Cute. Nowhere near correct, but cute.

Almost anyone working in IT will know English. Almost anyone with an office type job in a company that is international will speak English etc etc etc.Even (in the case of my partner a Chinese owned/operated company. the official office language is English)

[Ijustwannateach]

Some IT geeks are an exception, though many are not. Perhaps I left them out as they're simply not my cuppa.

To say that office workers in Thailand generally know English is a vast exaggeration. Most of them can probably manage the "Hello, how are you" conversation- but not too much more unless they travel for work or deal a lot with foreigners in the course of the job. It *does* happen, but is not routine.

Incidentally, I was unsure what kind of status your partner is- but if he's the OWNER of a company, then he's comfortably in the "rich" category.

Also, there *is* a slight middle class here- but it's slight, and largely Chinese. This class, it's true, is an exception sometimes to what I wrote.

However, I stand by my generalization, which despite the few exceptions you point out, is fairly close to the truth.

"Steven"

[Peripheral]

I cannot help wondering if Jogsy has now returned from Thailand and what transpired while he was there.

Any news, Jogsy old boy?